Thursday, July 08, 2010

Crushing Rebuttal from Caner's Defense Team

From the folks who seem to think that Dr. Caner's comments about his past were really no big deal, comes this clear rebuttal of all the charges, without an ounce of petty, ad hominem nonsense (link). Dave Armstrong would be proud of them!

(Note well: Despite the use of the A&O Ministries trademark and despite the prominent display of a supposed copyright claim by James White, the video is, as far as I know, the work of an unregenerate unkind SBC pastor.)

- TurretinFan

74 comments:

Anonymous said...

TF,

No, TF. The copyright "stamp" was my thingamajig, not JW's, intended to "copyright" JW's "you, sir, are a liar" strategy. See, even you can totally screw up a proper interpretation of a video ;^)

Now as for me being "unregenerate," I have not a care under God's blue sky what you think.

With that, I am...
Peter

Turretinfan said...

"Now as for me being 'unregenerate,' I have not a care under God's blue sky what you think."

So I've noticed. You've scoffed at my many attempts to call you to repentance.

debbiekaufman said...

As far as I know Peter is not the pastor of any church at this moment.

Anonymous said...

I cringe when I think of what the SBC and Liberty have become. The arrogance is chilling. Moral relativism is alive and well and they do not fear a Holy God.

Did anyone read this bizarre article back on April 1 by a trustee of SWBTS (Who is also an SBC pastor)?

http://praisegodbarebones.blogspot.com/2010/04/steely-backbone-of-school-of-jerry.html

Anonymous said...

"As far as I know Peter is not the pastor of any church at this moment."

Some of us would like to know if Peter is writing Bible Study materials for Lifeway.

qm said...

Hahaha that has to be the worst video ever created.

Also, I do hope the lawsuits go well. Copyright infringement isn't something to joke about, try to weasel out of, or try to contextualize. It's a serious crime.

Rhology said...

Yes, Peter. Please do at least attempt to spell stuff "write".

The fact that all you do is whine about how mean White is rather than answering the questions he's raised tells me all I need to know about you, and it's sad. I'm glad you're not a pastor right now. God forbid you would be before you repent.

Wes Widner said...

Wow, someone seriously needs to teach you guys a few terms such as "humor", "satire", "parody", and "fair use".

And unregenerate? Really? Who died and made you god all of the sudden?

Rhology said...

Pretty judgmental of you, Wes, to presume that our carrying out our responsibility to judge those inside the church = we think we're God. Your hypocrisy, at least, remains consistent.

Tom Chantry said...

Wow. Thanks for posting this, T-Fan. I was beginning to think that there was no actual, substantial defense for Caner out there. This video changes my mind about everything!

/sarcasm

Anonymous said...

Tremendous! I give it four stars! The level of detail, of ironclad counterargument, the generous use of Scripture all wrapped in a true expression of Christian charity. I have come to expect nothing less than this level of grace from the supporters of Caner. He must be so proud of his defenders. You go girl!

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Wow, someone seriously needs to teach you guys a few terms such as "humor", "satire", "parody", and "fair use".

Humour? I'm sorry. Did I miss it?

Anonymous said...

Oh Pilgrimsarbor, you silly bean! Here, let me educate you on the sophisticated artistry of this video.

The humour: The creator of this video hates Dr. White

The satire: The creator of this video hates Dr. White

The parody: The creator of this video hates Dr. White

The fair use: The creator of this video hates AO ministry.

Really, you need to take some classes so you don't come off looking nearly as foolish...

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Anon,

You are, without a doubt, a God-send! Your explanation is so precise, so clear--I don't know how I could have missed it!

Boy, do I feel foolish!

Please stay in touch. I have a feeling I'm going to be learning a lot from you about humour, satire and such, er, whatsyername.

Now, who is it again we're supposed to hate?

Blessings,

PA

Turretinfan said...

Wes:

How dare I preach repentance to sinners!

-TurretinFan

Anonymous said...

I used to participate with James White on a message board years ago that dealt with Jehovah's Witnesses. There were some real jerks on that board, and James White always maintained his composure and had a good reputation. Could he be witty and slightly sarcastic? Sure...but never in a way that hurt his testimony. I've seen more negative stuff from Peter Lumpkins in just one post than I ever saw in all the stuff I've ever read by James White.

What is so scary is people refusing to look at evidence and seeing what they want to see. They don't want to admit they are wrong about somebody, so they find ways in their mind to justify it. But an apologist like Geisler should be above that.

Turretinfan said...

By the way, I didn't comment on Mr. Lumpkins inability to read when he first commented here. However, what Mr. Lumpkins has in his video is something that looks like a copyright claim (although Mr. Lumpkins misspelled "Copyright" as "Copyrwrite") - and this copyright claim is written in such a way that it looks like Dr. White is making the claim. Thus, it is a "supposed copyright claim by James White."

Dr. White has not really claimed copyright - it's just part of Lumpkin's attempted mockery.

Strong Tower said...

The hilarity is that, as far as I know, Peter is the only Christian who has created a blog for the express purpose of being anti-someone.

Talk about hubris and hypocrisy.

That said, TF, I am not so sure that Lumpy isn't a true convert. Just go to his web site and click the refresh button, it regenerates the screen just like any other. Then again it doesn't change, either.

Word Verification: tarti

Scott said...

I think Peter Lumpkins and Ken Silva from Apprising Ministries are the same person now.

They both are total whackjobs.


Oh, and that Craig fellow over there needs to get his head out of Peter's rear from time to time for oxygen, it's a good thing...

David B. Hewitt said...

TF,

Just to make sure I am understanding correctly what you said (as attempting to wade through Peter Lumpkins' posts isn't often less than edifying and confusing) ---

Were you suggesting that Peter Lumpkins isn't saved?

Many thanks, brother!

sdg,
dbh

Turretinfan said...

DBH:

I'm not sure if "suggesting" is a strong enough word. It's my opinion based on my experience with him. Obviously, ultimately his salvation is between him and God. I only know him by his fruits.

-TurretinFan

Alexander said...

Peter,

The video wasn't even entertaining. It was a huge bore. In fact, I think I fell asleep halfway through because I don't even remember it ending.

White&Co. have not only called Caner out on his lying, but they have demonstrated it over...and over...and over again.

What an embarrassment.

There is a troubling disassociation with reality here.

In case you’re wondering, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t care for White, and if anything I guess my bias should tend towards Caner because my brother-in-law just completed his Masters from Liberty. This is just a third party observation.

Turretinfan said...

Alexander: I usually delete your comments, but I'll use a double standard here and leave your comment up. Congratulations to your brother-in-law! - TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

Anonymous:

Thanks for the info, but I felt your comments were a little harsh. I will try to do what you suggested, in terms of showing pity.

When I say "pastor," I mean that he has been ordained. As a Presbyterian, I don't view men as non-pastors, simply because they don't currently have a call. Perhaps that's not the right way to speak about SBC folks.

-TurretinFan

Anonymous said...

"I'm not sure if "suggesting" is a strong enough word. It's my opinion based on my experience with him. Obviously, ultimately his salvation is between him and God. I only know him by his fruits."

Why isn't this actually taught more? And why isn't this understood by more pastors? If it were, there would be far fewer Caner defenders.

It is scary out there what folks believe about salvation with no fruit. Or they re define what is bearing fruit.

Anonymous said...

I was sorry to see you deleted the post about Peter's not working. I have always wondered what he did for a living. But it was a bit harsh.

Turretinfan said...

Look - I'm not one of PL's fans, but we ought to show love and pity even on those who make themselves our enemies.

David B. Hewitt said...

TF: I see. Though I would agree that his actions have not been in step with the Gospel in much (ok, most) of what he has posted, I am not sure it is wise to make that statement.

I would rather say that PL is acting like an unregenerate person in what he has said. From some of the interaction with him that I have had, though admittedly not much, I have seen comments that would seem to spring from a life who at its heart does indeed desire God's honor.

My two cents anyway, my brother.

sdg,
dbh

Turretinfan said...

dbh:

Based on your comment, I've crossed out "unregenerate" and replaced it with "unkind."

-TurretinFan

hutchman said...

I think the "fruit" comment was spot on and Biblical I might add (That is the Standard we are to be measured by).

Matthew 7:16 ESV:
You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

hutchman said...

... oh and lest I be mistaken, I'm not posting the above verse in the out of context way most do. It isn't identifying Christians but those that bear false witness, false prophesies etc. Fitting for a situation where the truth is not dealt with at all.

gary dilworth said...

Scott,
Why do you say Ken Silva is a 'total whackjob'?



http://apprising.org/2010/06/09/where-is-the-church-in-the-ergun-caner-scandal/

Coram Deo said...

TF,

Slightly OT, but since you said:

"When I say "pastor," I mean that he has been ordained. As a Presbyterian, I don't view men as non-pastors, simply because they don't currently have a call."

As a presby what are the Thoughts of Francis Turretin[Fan] about these "pastors"?

In Him,
CD

hutchman said...

Another facet of the Pastor thought. We are all Pastors in a way. We are to be continually preaching the Gospel to ourselves!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWZKbA-svxA

http://www.desiringgodchurch.org/web/2009/02/21/preach-the-gospel-to-yourself/

http://www.eucatastrophe.com/blog/archives/category/preaching-the-gospel-to-yourself-from-the-old-testament/

Turretinfan said...

Well, I'm glad for the 94 presbyteries that voted against it last year. I hope that the number will increase this year, but I'm not especially sanguine about that denomination.

They have abandoned Scripture's clear teaching on the role of women in the church.

Tom said...

I don't know if Peter the Lump is actually regenerate, nor is it any of my business. If the Lord elects him to salvation, that is His business.

But The Lump has waged a never-ending campaign where he:

--displays his open contempt for Biblical doctrine.

--displays his open contempt for true Christian believers acting in obedience to the Word of God.

--displays his open contempt towards those who uphold biblical standards of truthfulness and integrity.

--displays his undying approval and support for a proven pathological liar.

Thus I regard him as a baptised infidel. And due to his evil words and deeds in oppostion to the Kingdom of God, May Galatians 1:8-9 find its total and complete fulfillment in him.

The same goes for such coharts of his as:

--Craig Daliessio

--A. M. Mallett

--Tim Guthrie

--Tim Rogers

--Norman Geisler

--Ergun Caner

Those men I likewise regards as baptised infidels until such time as they demonstrate genuine indications of repentance.

Coram Deo said...

TF,

With respect to Lumpkins, the PCUSA, and especially Caner I hope you can find comfort by bringing to mind and prayerfully meditating on what Bible 3:16 says.

I also recommend Bible 8:28.

In Him,
CD

Tom said...

One of the constant whines we have been hearing from the Canerite Sect during this whole thing is that "big, bad, mean James White did not follow the Matthew 18 process..." Yada, Yada, Yada!!!!!!

Very well; they wanted it, they've got it! Since all of this stuff is now out there in the public domain, we are now at that point in "the Matthew 18 process" at v. 17 with regards to Ergun Caner and hisdisciples where they are to us "as a heathen and a tax collector."

Tom said...

I am unaware if anyone has articulate it in this manner, but quite briefly, the three main tenets of the Canerite Sect are:

1. Standards of truth, honesty, and personal integrity in the Christian ministry are at best irrelevant, and at worst counterproductive.

2. Anyone misguided enough who attempts to hold to standards of truth truth, honesty, and personal integrity in the Christian ministry must be viciously and relentlessly attacked by any and all means available.

3 All of one's thoughts, words, and deed must be guided by an undying hatred and contempt for the Reformed faith.

Rhology said...

LOL @ Coram Deo. Nice.

BruinEric said...

Coram Deo,

What's funny to me is I breezed past Bible 3:16 and actually "read" it as John 3:16. Only when I got to Bible 8:28 did I catch myself.

Turretinfan said...

For what it is worth, I see that Mr. Lumpkins has posted a second blog article on the fact that I used the term "unregenerate" to describe him. In that post, he makes it sound as though my comment above about "suggesting" not being strong enough came after I struck out the word "unregenerate." That's wrong.

I made the comment about the term "suggesting" not being strong enough before DBH's testimony to the effect that he has seen evidence of God's grace in PL's life. After the testimony, I thought it better to reconsider my words, and limit myself to saying that Mr. Lumpkins is unkind.

I hope Mr. Lumpkins reads this and considers editing his second post.

- TurretinFan

bossmanham said...

After the testimony, I thought it better to reconsider my words, and limit myself to saying that Mr. Lumpkins is unkind.

Perhaps an apology is in order as well?

Rhology said...

From Lumpkins? Absolutely.
I mean, have you read his blog?

Tom said...

Okay, Riddick, since you seem so interested in posting my comments on Peter the Lump's blog, I shall be more than willing to add your name to the list of baptised infidels which comprise the membership of the Canerite Sect.

And Lumpy, your so-called "testamony" is absolutely worthless. I shall continue to address you and your cohorts as "baptised infidels" until such time as you fall on your face in repentence before the Holy Lord God and renounce your evil words and evil deeds.

Probably the best use I can think of for your "testamony" is to make prints outs of it to line the bottom of my cat's litter box.

Anonymous said...

This is an accoruate and appropriate theme passage for the Canerite Sect:

"To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess that they know God, but in words they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work." (Titus 1:15-16)

hutchman said...

... a humbling verse!

Turretinfan said...

bossmanham,

Do you mean that I should apologize to Mr. Lumpkins for the comment I have publicly withdrawn?

What would be the proposed form of the apology?

-TurretinFan

Bennett Willis said...

http://www.normangeisler.net/insupportofcaner.html

Testimonials by those who also profited by EC's embellishments or who would suffer economic loss and embarrassment if EC repented. This is clearly a majority position of the testifiers.

At least most don't try to defend EC’s actions, just the personality. They did have one joke. They described SBC Today as an SBC news organ. They did not say which organ though.

Emir, the un-indicted co-conspirator, makes an appearance.

Coram Deo said...

They described SBC Today as an SBC news organ. They did not say which organ though.

on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, - 1 Cor. 12:23

Thus we can understand that even unpresentable and less honorable parts ought to be esteemed.

This being said our legal system nevertheless recognizes those who constantly expose their unpresentable parts as being lawbreakers.

What's the lesson here?

In Christ,
CD

Tom said...

From the latest statement on Geisler’s website, more names of those who are willing partakers of Ergun Caner’s many sins, and thus have their names added to the ranks of the Canerite Sect and who should be regarded as baptized infidels:

--Emir Caner

--John Ankerberg

--Paige Pattersonn

--Ron Rhodes

--Joseph Holden

Plus, unnamed PR hack from Kregel Books.

Turretinfan said...

Tom: I would be a little cautious to conclude that from a single statement about a single issue - particularly when the issue is whether they have correctly seen through misinformation.

Tom said...

Point very well taken. However, I believe that those who publicly align themselves with Caner MUST be held accountable for their actions.

Of the names mentioned in the last list, I can't think of one who can claim "misinformation" as a justifiable excuse:

--certainly NOT Emir Caner.

--Ankerberg has dealt with him for years, and is a co-conspirator in such matters as forcing pertenent information to be withdrawn from YouTube.

--Paige Pattersonn? Seems to know a great deal about the Caners' activities.

--Ron Rhodes says that he knows "Ergun personally," and that Caner "is a good man with a heart for God.' Either Rhodes does NOT know Canner all that well, and is lying. Or else he cannot use the "misinformation" excuse.

--Holden says, "Dr. Geisler and Dr. Caner are the two spiritual warriors I would most like next to me in the trenches doing battle for the cause of Christ." Either he is blowing smoke on this one, or else he likewise cannot use the "misinformation" excuse after making a statement like that.

Of the bunch, the only one I have any second-guesses about is the unnamed PR hack from Kregel Books.

hutchman said...

Brother Tom,

I feel your frustration. I feel your letting folks get you too wound up. The Lord is still on his thrown and knows what is going on. He sees the sparrow fall, nobody is fooling Him. Don't get so spun up that you get cast in the same light as some that have posted on the SBC blogs (I won't mention who I'm thinking of). Two wrongs don't make a right and we can't return evil for evil. As my Pastor once said, when a situation generates more heat than light it is time to step back.

The heat on both sides is going up and I think we need to be careful or the comments on this site will spiral down like some of the other blogs.

I think it is clear to those who are honest which sites are attempting to be accurate and which ones are not (those that were created for the express purpose of attacking).

Stay on the high road brother.

Fredericka said...

Bennett Willis wrote: "Emir, the un-indicted co-conspirator, makes an appearance."
Emir has at long last thrown his lot in with his brother, so that both stay afloat together or both go down together. I always thought better of Emir, because when he was around, the tall tales stopped. When the two brothers wrote books together, Ergun was born in Sweden not Istanbul, when they both spoke with an AP reporter, they grew up in Ohio not Turkey. Maybe this was his heritage from the Swedish grand-mother who doted on him, but he doesn't like to lie. It's a shame to watch him toss his integrity away. If these people are concerned about their financial future, they're not preserving it by doing this, because "Getting treasures by a lying tongue
is the fleeting fantasy of those who seek death." (Proverbs 21:6).

hutchman said...

"If these people are concerned about their financial future, they're not preserving it by doing this, because "Getting treasures by a lying tongue
is the fleeting fantasy of those who seek death." (Proverbs 21:6)."

Pleasure in sin is only for a season. The Lord will not bless their efforts nor those that harbor them especially now that the truth has been revealed. I always thought better of Emir as well. Sad to see this.

David B. Hewitt said...

Tom:

As I read through your comments I do have to say --

You are a zealous person, but I would say that it a one that is lacking necessary knowledge.

Calling so many people's salvation into question I do think is unjustified and dangerous, uncharitable and unChristlike.

This is exemplified clearly in this statement you included with one of your comments:

"Probably the best use I can think of for your "testamony" is to make prints outs of it to line the bottom of my cat's litter box."

Sir, at the very best, that is rude, and I cannot see how it is in any way consistent with Jesus's command in Matthew 22 to love our neighbor as ourself.

It certainly is appropriate to call someone to repentance; I believe Peter Lumpkins and others who comment on his blog need to be called to repentance, and for specific things that they have said. You are most correct in that regard.

That being said, however, please consider this a from one brother to another (me to you) for repentance for what I can only see as careless comments.

sdg,
dbh

David B. Hewitt said...

edit:

"That being said, however, please consider this a from one brother to another (me to you) for repentance for what I can only see as careless comments."

should be

That being said, however, please consider this a call from one brother to another (me to you) for repentance for what I can only see as careless comments.

Anonymous said...

"Pleasure in sin is only for a season. The Lord will not bless their efforts nor those that harbor them especially now that the truth has been revealed. I always thought better of Emir as well. Sad to see this."

The problem I see with this is that many, even those educated at seminary, have a different view of what God's "blessings" look like.


I personally know several "Christian" ministers who think God is blessing them because they built a mega church of 20,000 members with "felt needs". They think their 10,000 sq ft home is a blessing from God. And their high end six figure salary a blessing from God.

They think all who have responded to an invitation to join the mega is a blessing from God. Even when they heard nothing about sin or sanctification in the Gospel presentation.

Would you say the Lord blessed Hudson Taylor's efforts? The Lord's "blessings" can look like death or loserville to the worldly when in fact, they are true Blessings.

What will you say if Caner makes a big comeback? That it is God's Blessing?

Marta

Rev. said...

Peter Lumpkins may be unkind, at times he certainly comes across as smug and arrogant. Nonetheless, the crossed out 'regenerate' tag really should be removed.

Gordan said...

Funny that Peter's first comment here says, "I have not a care under God's blue sky what you think" about his spiritual state....

....and then he goes and devotes an entire post on his blog to what you said.

With that, he is....
conflicted

Turretinfan said...

Gordon:

At least two posts, as you can see the "comments elsewhere" links section.

-TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

Rev:

With these guys, I was concerned the completely deleting it would lead to charges of some kind of devious cover-up to conceal the previous label. Another approach would be imply to delete the entire post, since it has probably run its course.

-TurretinFan

Lockheed said...

Using the Alpha & Omega Ministries logo, purporting to be a video from A&O, is illegal use of copyright law. You know this Peter, we've been over this. You want to make a spoof video, fine, make your own logos your own stuff and don't steal from others.

Lockheed said...

*I* will claim copyright on the logo, as that is one I drew, and I will file a complaint with Vimeo.

Lockheed said...

Rev, go read his blog, read his comments, read the filth he's spread across the net and then reexamine the 'regenerate' tag question.

hutchman said...

Anonymous said... "I personally know several "Christian" ministers who think God is blessing them because they built a mega church of 20,000 members with "felt needs". They think their 10,000 sq ft home is a blessing from God. And their high end six figure salary a blessing from God."

I guess I'm not following where you are coming from. The Bible is clear that unconfessed sin crimps the Grace tube in which blessings flow to a believer.

"Would you say the Lord blessed Hudson Taylor's efforts? The Lord's "blessings" can look like death or loserville to the worldly when in fact, they are true Blessings.

What will you say if Caner makes a big comeback? That it is God's Blessing?"

I would say Hudson Taylor was greatly used and blessed. Am I missing something here?

If Dr. Caner repents and turns from his sin, I don't see why the Lord wouldn't bless him or his efforts as long as he is doing God's Will. He is a very gifted and dynamic speaker although his zeal needs to be tempered with Biblical knowledge/doctrine ... he needs to decrease so He may increase.

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Tom said...

Mr. Hewitt;

I did wish to reply to your unsolicited, unnecessary, unbiblical, and totally worthless rebuke earlier. However circumstances prevented from doing so until now.

Your false accusations have no basis whatsoever in the Word of God. In fact, based upon Matthew 18, I am COMMANDED by the Lord Jesus Christ to regard the Canerites “like heathens and tax collectors.”

Despite their constant whining about it, the situation involving E. Michael Caner was NOT a Matthew 18 situation, strictly speaking. However, there were some parallels:

1. The accusations against E. Michael Caner were fully document and made public.
2. They were presented repeatedly.
3. They were presented by a multitude of witnesses.

And the response by the Canerite Sect was the most vile, most evil, the most ungodly attacks against, principally, James White that I have ever witnesses on the internet. And White was not their only target. EVERYONE who attempted to point out that Caner is a proven pathological liar had to endure their attacks.

And I am supposed to embrace these creatures as “brothers in Christ?” NO WAY!!! A non-negotiable re-precondition for me to even consider thinking of people like Peter the Lamp and Craig Da Losero as Christian believers would be for them to issue public retractions and apologies for their lies and slanders.

Paul certainly did not refrain from thinking of those individuals as “false brethren” who rightfully deserved the term (Galatians, 2:4, II Corinthians 11:26), and neither shall I.

Regarding your total misapplication of Matthew 22, I owe the Canerites the same degree of love that Paul displayed to the false brethren of his day when he wrote what they can go do to themselves in Galatians 5:12.

The only one who has a legitimate claim to be offended over what I said The Lump can do with his testimony is my poor Kitty for the suggestion that such a foul, loathsome thing should be put in his litter box.

I will stand by each and every word I’ve written here. If you don’t like it, then that is YOUR problem, not mine.

Lockheed said...

The video has been DMCA'd for copyright violation. Mr. Lumpkins can spew his filth all he wants on his blog, but he can't break the law to do so.

Fredericka said...

My efforts to enter comments on Peter Lumpkins' blog have gone from sometimes successful to never successful as of his 'Unregenerate' article. As I was trying to say to Peter and Craig:

"I've figured out why you guys need Ergun Caner so badly. His humor is quite hard-edged; he complains, for instance, about the "blue-haired" ladies who were trying to foist their "mutant grand-daughters" on him. Personally I don't care much for this 'shock-jock' type of humor, but at the time when I was downloading his mp3's, I mostly overlooked it because I was focused on his comments about growing up in Turkey and other imaginary things. Now for people like you, I imagine church is a very rough place, because you have to make 'nicey-nice' to all the "blue-haired" ladies and their "mutant grand-daughters," whom you consider useless creatures. Ergun is your key into the kingdom; he lets you be as nasty as you wanna be, and still feel like you are Christians. Without him, you're lost, in a foreign land. Am I right?"