tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post1234056923888503271..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Semi-Pelagianism According to SchaffTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-85224023379726121892008-03-06T03:50:00.000+00:002008-03-06T03:50:00.000+00:00Dear Dan,I don't get it. What's the motivation to...Dear Dan,<BR/><BR/>I don't get it. What's the motivation to be concerned about semi-Pelagianism?<BR/><BR/>As for sufficiency, did you understand/agree with RdP's comment about the two major characteristics of Pelagianism? If so, how would the matter need further clarification?<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-61095358938005126442008-03-06T02:50:00.000+00:002008-03-06T02:50:00.000+00:00Dear TF,Are you more worried about Semi-Pelagianis...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/><I>Are you more worried about Semi-Pelagianism or Arminianism getting properly defined?</I><BR/><BR/>At the moment, semi-Pelagianism.<BR/><BR/><I>Didn't Arminius reject the sufficiency of grace?</I><BR/><BR/>Sufficiency for what?<BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/>DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-44214399091918320752008-03-06T00:21:00.000+00:002008-03-06T00:21:00.000+00:00Schaff was a good while after Arminius, so I'm sur...Schaff was a good while after Arminius, so I'm sure they never interacted directly.<BR/><BR/>Are you more worried about Semi-Pelagianism or Arminianism getting properly defined?<BR/><BR/>Didn't Arminius reject the sufficiency of grace?<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-65074256625920848552008-03-05T23:04:00.000+00:002008-03-05T23:04:00.000+00:00Dear TF,I mean to say that I don't recall either S...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/><I>I mean to say that I don't recall either Schaff's definition or application as provoking a firestorm of scholarly criticism when it was presented.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't recall that either, being generally unfamiliar with reactions to Schaff. <BR/><BR/><I>Do you recall any scholar saying something like, "I disagree with Schaff about that?"</I><BR/><BR/>Not Schaff by name, but Godismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-9245733806135446512008-03-05T13:19:00.000+00:002008-03-05T13:19:00.000+00:00Dear Dan,I mean to say that I don't recall either ...Dear Dan,<BR/><BR/>I mean to say that I don't recall either Schaff's definition or application as provoking a firestorm of scholarly criticism when it was presented.<BR/><BR/>Do you recall any scholar saying something like, "I disagree with Schaff about that?"<BR/><BR/>Or is your point simply that a lot of people would have a gut reaction that since Pelagianism is something bad, they'd rather notTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-19594895149592723562008-03-05T03:02:00.000+00:002008-03-05T03:02:00.000+00:00Dear TF,In his definition or his labeling Jerome, ...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/>In his definition or his labeling Jerome, Melanchthon & Arminians semi-pelagian? I think I am safe in saying a great number of folks dissent to the latter. But it's the latter that clouds the issue. Out of curiosity, do you consider Jerome a semi-pelagian? How about Melanchthon?<BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/>DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-28191508695300662402008-03-04T13:56:00.000+00:002008-03-04T13:56:00.000+00:00RdP,Semi-pelagianism is not pelagianism.I'm not su...RdP,<BR/><BR/>Semi-pelagianism is not pelagianism.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure why that is difficult to grasp.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the issue is over a defective view of grace. It is not, however, the Pelagian error, but a different error.<BR/><BR/>You see, the Pelagians opposed Augustine's orthodox view that grace is both necessary and sufficient.<BR/><BR/>The modern Catholic view is semi-Pelagian, not Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-54961448659395634652008-03-04T13:49:00.000+00:002008-03-04T13:49:00.000+00:00Dan,(a) I don't see anything particularly controve...Dan,<BR/><BR/>(a) I don't see anything particularly controversial about Schaff's definition.<BR/><BR/>(b) People not liking the label doesn't really make the label controversial.<BR/><BR/>(c) I haven't seen any scholarly dissent from Schaff's definition, which is not to say that therefore there must not be any. Are you aware of anyone who says that Schaff was out in left field here?<BR/><BR/>Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-36316971828582594692008-03-04T11:30:00.000+00:002008-03-04T11:30:00.000+00:00Hello Turretinfan,Regrettably it seems that you ha...Hello Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>Regrettably it seems that you have misunderstood my post and my reply to your comments about it at my blog (but perhaps you have not seen my reply; I don't know). I apologize if I have contributed to the confusion through any particular way of putting things in the post, but I stand by my approach to the topic.<BR/><BR/>A subject cannot be semi-something without havingFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-23939663675967726162008-03-04T01:06:00.000+00:002008-03-04T01:06:00.000+00:00Dear TF,Then perhaps it might be best to pick a so...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/>Then perhaps it might be best to pick a source that defines semi-pelagianism in a less controvesial way.<BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/>DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-6678839531446463092008-03-03T22:36:00.000+00:002008-03-03T22:36:00.000+00:00Perhaps posting what Schaff says about Semi-August...Perhaps posting what Schaff says about Semi-Augustinianism would be helpful here. I believe he lists the characteristics. As I read through them, they look remarkably Arminian; thus I'll call some Arminians "Semi-Augustinian" and some "Semi-Pelagian" depending on the flavor.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-69637582234551434012008-03-03T13:12:00.000+00:002008-03-03T13:12:00.000+00:00Dear Dan,Interesting way of looking at the matter....Dear Dan,<BR/>Interesting way of looking at the matter. The antidote was to those who have no clue what semi-Pelagianism is. It was not to those who may wish somehow or for some reason to avoid the designation.<BR/><BR/>I published this as an anticipatory follow-on to my use of "semi-Pelagian" in my criticism of Catholicism in my previous post.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, despite some rather clear Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-84563530138089004882008-03-02T23:58:00.000+00:002008-03-02T23:58:00.000+00:00Dear TF,I am not sure how labeling Jerome, Melanch...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/>I am not sure how labeling Jerome, Melanchthon & Arminians of semi-pelagianism is an antidote to throwing around the term semi-pelagian. I would think that might be a flashpoint of controversy. <BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/>DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-52907643755793427992008-03-02T14:15:00.000+00:002008-03-02T14:15:00.000+00:00Lucian,Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure what...Lucian,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure what to tell you about the attempted cross-comparison between Shaff's article (above) and the other article extract you had provided me. Maybe I simply didn't understand the point you were trying to make.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.com