tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post1423756483971786387..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Paul Helm Reviews Michael Horton's SystematicTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-30909122721238276482011-04-29T12:54:48.498+01:002011-04-29T12:54:48.498+01:00RvdS:
It wasn't just criticism - it was balan...RvdS:<br /><br />It wasn't just criticism - it was balanced. He found positive things to say, and negative things to say as well. He also raised some points that I thought would not have been immediately apparent to the average reader.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-43472189205861917722011-04-29T12:53:28.540+01:002011-04-29T12:53:28.540+01:00C.T.:
Take my silence as meaning that the request...C.T.:<br /><br />Take my silence as meaning that the request to boil down Escondido's errors into a single sentence or paragraph is not something I feel up to, right now.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-41300440517505944742011-04-29T10:58:53.186+01:002011-04-29T10:58:53.186+01:00>C.T.: Both FV and R2K/WSC theologies borrow fr...>C.T.: Both FV and R2K/WSC theologies borrow from Kline in different ways.<br /><br />R2K would be in the category of a theonomy complaint against Kline. As I stated above that seems to be the main thing going on.<br /><br />As for tying FV to Kline, for the reasons you give you might as well castigate John Calvin for influencing FVists as well. Anyway, Federal Vision was started by more than c.t.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02287685119108815245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-60523138990405780142011-04-29T09:55:09.258+01:002011-04-29T09:55:09.258+01:00TF: As your terse response is a wee bit brusque, I...TF: As your terse response is a wee bit brusque, I'll attempt a different approach:<br /><br />Are you praising Helm because he is critical of Horton? Because he argues that at major points his treatment falls flat? After all, Helm is not connected to NAPARC or the US seminary axis, so he has no institutional reason to pull his punches. The discussion here got me rereading the essay, looking Randall van der Sterrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08618509337299843429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-36173293341909728062011-04-29T07:16:33.682+01:002011-04-29T07:16:33.682+01:00OK, TF, I'll take your silence to mean you may...OK, TF, I'll take your silence to mean you maybe don't really know what the problem with Westminster California is. I've always found the complaints against Westminster California to be ambiguous and never really stated clearly. Third use of the law? I know, theonomists (current or ex, kind of the same thing, really, in my cyber experience) really, really (really) don't like c.t.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02287685119108815245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-44387310252112539312011-04-28T00:42:28.816+01:002011-04-28T00:42:28.816+01:00Since this is an ongoing subject could you put int...Since this is an ongoing subject could you put into a sentence or short paragraph just what the error in question is?<br /><br />I know there are a lot of issues on the table regarding Clark. He's been called by one of his own peers a 'practical deist.' I know he is for some reason mocking of the Puritans, or questions even their very existence in history. I know he seems to want to c.t.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02287685119108815245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-6985665920590822872011-04-27T23:38:56.010+01:002011-04-27T23:38:56.010+01:00C.T.,
There are obviously points where you and I ...C.T.,<br /><br />There are obviously points where you and I would strongly disagree on this subject. I would agree that many of the opponents of the Escondido folks are clueless about Federal Theology. Thankfully, there is a school of thought that is more like Edwards or Owen, which addresses the matter in a way that avoids either error.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-4929903621330833702011-04-27T23:35:09.216+01:002011-04-27T23:35:09.216+01:00You need to understand something, though, TF: your...You need to understand something, though, TF: your dig at Vos and Kline being 'original' (a word which I qualified as one should when speaking of biblical doctrine) is a shallow game. Vos was as orthodox a Reformed theologian - in an era where that was extremely rare - as any of the first and second generation reformers or any since him. He filled out orthodox Reformed doctrine in areas c.t.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02287685119108815245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-26561327324486224472011-04-27T12:55:15.142+01:002011-04-27T12:55:15.142+01:00C.T.:
I would agree with you on several things. ...C.T.:<br /><br />I would agree with you on several things. I would agree that Vos and Kline had some original ideas. They seem to be the primary influences behind what I view as the Escondido movement.<br /><br />I would also agree with you about the literary skill of Dostoevsky.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-37313502297476320202011-04-27T01:10:05.463+01:002011-04-27T01:10:05.463+01:00Helm is always going to be soft-edged in anything ...Helm is always going to be soft-edged in anything he writes. He's sort of a Yoda like figure among Calvinist academics. Yoda without the comical aspects. <br /><br />First, I really don't think the piece is much of a review and probably wasn't meant to be. Helm seems to have agreed to make a blog post on that site every now and then. As a review it's light fare (probably c.t.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02287685119108815245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-59552324520840814002011-04-25T13:10:57.821+01:002011-04-25T13:10:57.821+01:00CD:
I meant that the review showed reflection and...CD:<br /><br />I meant that the review showed reflection and perception with respect to the book that was being reviewed. This distinguished it - in my mind - from some of other reviews of the book that I have seen.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46283673190107199142011-04-25T03:48:22.914+01:002011-04-25T03:48:22.914+01:00TF,
I wondered about what you meant by Helm's...TF,<br /><br />I wondered about what you meant by Helm's review "elevating your opinion" of him as well.<br /><br />What about his review served to elevate your opinion of him, and why?<br /><br />In Christ,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-10331859564133528302011-04-25T01:28:40.638+01:002011-04-25T01:28:40.638+01:00RvdS:
You've expressed your negative opinion ...RvdS:<br /><br />You've expressed your negative opinion of the review twice. Obviously, I don't share your opinion.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-73905836589407129472011-04-25T01:08:50.159+01:002011-04-25T01:08:50.159+01:00TF: How would Helm's review elevate your opini...TF: How would Helm's review elevate your opinion of him? He sneered and filled his essay with nothing. Look, I find Horton like the rest of the Escondido boys: overrated, antinomian and fundamentally misguided. That doesn't excuse Helm. If he had nothing to say, why write the essay?Randall van der Sterrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08618509337299843429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-22632721769846859912011-04-23T04:27:11.900+01:002011-04-23T04:27:11.900+01:00I see, well I did qualify my comment with "se...I see, well I did qualify my comment with <i>"seems"</i>.<br /><br />So you don't hold to any particular theological tendencies or inclinations, especially any that may prevent unprejudiced consideration of a question, you merely hold certain differences of opinion. That's good to know.<br /><br /><i>:o)</i><br /><br />In Him,<br />CD<br /><br />Word Verification: "fixem&Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-45624235343464053352011-04-23T03:04:26.642+01:002011-04-23T03:04:26.642+01:00Disagreement and bias are two different things. I...Disagreement and bias are two different things. I'm sure my theological disagreements with the author will be reflected in some way in my review of any theological work, especially a systematic theology.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88222990279851836582011-04-22T23:54:52.405+01:002011-04-22T23:54:52.405+01:00I'm about 200 pages in so far, and I've ap...I'm about 200 pages in so far, and I've appreciated Horton's interaction thus far.<br /><br />His style is certainly engaging, although I'm not sure if I'm being entirely objective in my reading because I find myself benchmarking Horton against Robert Reymond's systematic, which is probably unfair.<br /><br />TF,<br /><br />Given what at least seems to be a theological Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-90447058516518364072011-04-22T23:54:05.595+01:002011-04-22T23:54:05.595+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-1248138170246849382011-04-22T23:49:44.151+01:002011-04-22T23:49:44.151+01:00Fanboys....Fanboys....Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05690738239872948496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-23039021385096672652011-04-22T12:56:20.919+01:002011-04-22T12:56:20.919+01:00As I said, I'm reserving my own comments for n...As I said, I'm reserving my own comments for now. I will say, however, that the review actually elevated my opinion of Helm.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-91077143381989286392011-04-22T07:02:26.882+01:002011-04-22T07:02:26.882+01:00Where's the review? I find hardly anything of ...Where's the review? I find hardly anything of substance there. Except for paragraphs 3-6, which aren't fleshed out, what gives?<br /><br />I appreciate Helm's work, yet sometime he seems to gesture at ideas rather than make a point. Considering that he sometimes moonlights at BoT, I assume he knows of the Puritan emphasis on clarity in religious writing.<br /><br />Further, Helm'sRandall van der Sterrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08618509337299843429noreply@blogger.com