tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post3306872460273981389..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Did Augustine Call Mary the "Mother of God"?Turretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-39623558866072670922017-05-15T13:11:12.238+01:002017-05-15T13:11:12.238+01:00Turretinfan's quote from Augustine has no bear...Turretinfan's quote from Augustine has no bearing on whether he would have used the term "Mother of God". Augustine says that she is not mother of his divinity. This is not the term affirmed by the Church. Furthermore, to say that she was the mother of his infirmity does not contradict the term "Mother of God". Read the first anathema adopted by the Ephesus Council. It exegesishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08086082254898233677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46231091315400168322015-08-15T05:21:01.609+01:002015-08-15T05:21:01.609+01:00J.M.J.
Mr. TurretinFan,
The dissemination of thi...J.M.J.<br /><br />Mr. TurretinFan,<br /><br />The dissemination of this quotation is due to the work of the Novus Ordo apologist Dave Armstrong, who cites it as having been written by St. Augustine (http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/11/st-augustine-was-catholic-not-proto.html?m=1). He, in turn, got the quotation from St. Alphonsus, just as you did (http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15349633313477775543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-45017631397306203152012-07-17T03:12:52.786+01:002012-07-17T03:12:52.786+01:00"The term 'Mother of God' was used by..."The term 'Mother of God' was used by several first and second century Church Fathers."<br /><br />Which ones exactly? It's easy to make claims - it's harder to document them.<br /><br />"To deny Mary being the 'Mother of God' is to deny Jesus being 100% human and divine."<br /><br />To deny David being "Father of God" is to deny Jesus being turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88500763109623900822012-07-17T03:03:38.220+01:002012-07-17T03:03:38.220+01:00a) I have read the full story - and I've accur...a) I have read the full story - and I've accurately quoted him.<br />b) Jesus' obedience to Mary and her husband Joseph (not just to Mary) was voluntary, unlike ordinary children. It would not have been sin for Jesus to appeal to his authority as God to disregard the commands of any of his creatures - from Caeasar down to Mary.turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-66136097412187633032012-07-17T02:58:39.171+01:002012-07-17T02:58:39.171+01:00Those who believe in the Son will never perish. T...Those who believe in the Son will never perish. That's the church that will never die - not princes in fancy clothes in Rome.turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-24538736081030979642012-07-17T02:57:06.781+01:002012-07-17T02:57:06.781+01:00Kesto4:
We don't have to speculate about the ...Kesto4:<br /><br />We don't have to speculate about the judgment seat comments from God - we have God's word already in the form of Scripture. And Scripture doesn't teach Rome's religion.<br /><br />What will you do when you discover that your church lied to you? that it was not what it claimed to be? I hope you will turn to the God whose word refutes Rome's false religion.turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-76464024419331072072012-07-17T00:15:35.202+01:002012-07-17T00:15:35.202+01:00How would you respond to God when you see Him at t...How would you respond to God when you see Him at the judgement seat if you had to tell Him you blasphemed His One and True Church? That you had abandoned the traditions of His Church and followed a blind leader that made his own interpretations of the Bible (contrary to 2 Peter)? Just something to think about.kesto4http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NLAI6SSDYZIAIMTCDBGLEURMGYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-74190381451179694472012-07-17T00:13:55.065+01:002012-07-17T00:13:55.065+01:00Matthew 16:18-19. God's church shall never die...Matthew 16:18-19. God's church shall never die. Founded in 33 AD, yet so many refuse what the early Church fathers say.kesto4http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NLAI6SSDYZIAIMTCDBGLEURMGYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46069658311062933602012-07-17T00:12:05.899+01:002012-07-17T00:12:05.899+01:00He doesn't say this to lower our thoughts of M...He doesn't say this to lower our thoughts of Mary or our mothers. You are picking a quote out of the Bible and making conclusions about it. Read the whole story, and you will understand what he is saying. The commandments tell us to Obey and honor our parents, surely you aren't suggesting Jesus refused his Mother's commands? He did not sin.kesto4http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NLAI6SSDYZIAIMTCDBGLEURMGYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-51081060514494850062012-07-17T00:08:33.385+01:002012-07-17T00:08:33.385+01:00The term 'Mother of God' was used by sever...The term 'Mother of God' was used by several first and second century Church Fathers. To deny Mary being the 'Mother of God' is to deny Jesus being 100% human and divine. It's as simple as that...Mary bore Jesus, who was 100% human and divine. If Mary is not the Mother of God, Jesus is only 100% human. Shall we deny Jesus died on the cross for our sins too because he wasn'kesto4http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NLAI6SSDYZIAIMTCDBGLEURMGYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-43539591034721307442011-03-05T12:20:36.668+00:002011-03-05T12:20:36.668+00:00:):)Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-80683686262733110932011-03-05T12:08:28.868+00:002011-03-05T12:08:28.868+00:00Seems he used "mater Domini", meaning &q...Seems he used "mater Domini", meaning "mother of the Lord", and never "Dei genitrix" or "Deipara", the Latin equivalents of the Greek ``Theotokos``. (<a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GcVhAGpvTQ0C&pg=PA542&lpg=PA542&dq=augustine+dei+genitrix&source=bl&ots=j5xxG20FbE&sig=p3ip0b8oBWfobSlCztLPCQGZLcs&hl=en&ei=The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-38935828217503398282011-03-04T23:45:37.039+00:002011-03-04T23:45:37.039+00:00Here's the closest thing I've seen, Luka:
...Here's the closest thing I've seen, Luka:<br /><br />"Maria ex gratia mater Filii Dei."<br /><br />translation: Mary, by grace mother of the Son of God. <br /><br />But that's a heading in Sermon 291, not part of the text of the sermon. I have no reason to think that Augustine wrote those headings (though I don't recall when or by whom they were added).<br /><br />Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-2322923706312194302011-03-04T23:40:09.066+00:002011-03-04T23:40:09.066+00:00Let's make it easy. Where did Schaff mention ...Let's make it easy. Where did Schaff mention this? I can then get the Latin for the work and track down the usage.<br /><br />"Mother of my/our/the Lord" (Mater Domini) I think we will find, but "Mother of God," not so much.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-33628690358223905242011-03-04T22:25:46.274+00:002011-03-04T22:25:46.274+00:001). When the heresy of Paul of Samosata, Bishop of...1). <i>When the heresy of Paul of Samosata, Bishop of Antioch, began to trouble the East, <b>Dionysius wrote to the Church of Antioch</b> on the subject</i> -- "Catholic Encyclopedia".<br /><br /><br />2) Try "genetri" (no termination, just this root -- it's not exactly a frequent word). <br /><br />And all the six forms of "mater dei". [Hey, you brought it upon The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-23806116356874557102011-03-04T22:17:25.015+00:002011-03-04T22:17:25.015+00:00Yes, "mother of our Lord" or "mothe...Yes, "mother of our Lord" or "mother of my Lord" or "mother of the Lord" is pretty much straight from the Bible. We have no problem with that.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-76152413586492004472011-03-04T22:16:11.255+00:002011-03-04T22:16:11.255+00:00Nothing for "dei genetrix" or "gene...Nothing for "dei genetrix" or "genetrix dei" either. I think DTKing has already explained why, above.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88067697719365481272011-03-04T22:11:54.090+00:002011-03-04T22:11:54.090+00:00Try 'Dei Genetrix' then..
(I can find &q...Try 'Dei Genetrix' then.. <br /><br />(I can find "mother of the Lord" and "Lord's mother" in the English versions on CCEL).The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-10797628146692064532011-03-04T22:07:34.803+00:002011-03-04T22:07:34.803+00:00As for your source, it would be nice if it had som...As for your source, it would be nice if it had some citations.<br /><br />I couldn't find any letter amongst Dionysius' letters that is addressed to Paul of Samosata, although there are several about the controversy.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-84238393674911321572011-03-04T21:57:04.050+00:002011-03-04T21:57:04.050+00:00The form "deipara" doesn't appear in...The form "deipara" doesn't appear in his works, as far as I can determine. Nor does any obvious (to me) declension of it.<br /><br />Why is that so surprising to you?<br /><br />Perhaps you've misidentified something as Ambrose that isn't Ambrose, or perhaps Ambrose's influence on Augustine is less than you thought.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-69036403205075937772011-03-04T21:46:34.394+00:002011-03-04T21:46:34.394+00:00Use of Theotokos in the early Christian Church
Ma...<i><b>Use of Theotokos in the early Christian Church</b></i><br /><br />Many Fathers of the early Christian Church used the title Theotokos for Mary since at least the <b><i>third century AD</i></b>.<br /><br />Origen (d. 254) is often cited as the earliest author to use Theotokos for Mary (Socrates, Ecclesiastical History 7.32 citing Origen's Commentary on Romans) but the text upon which The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-1295482194223374692011-03-04T21:37:23.876+00:002011-03-04T21:37:23.876+00:00...and I'd be VERY surprised if Saint Augustin......and I'd be VERY surprised if Saint Augustine wouldn't use the same term(s), that's all...The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46947097643723493352011-03-04T20:59:50.456+00:002011-03-04T20:59:50.456+00:00Yes, and?Yes, and?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46954797390428999322011-03-04T20:50:35.354+00:002011-03-04T20:50:35.354+00:00Augustine lived in Africa, and was a contemporary ...Augustine lived in Africa, and was a contemporary of Saint Ambrose (hence the mention of Alexandria [Egypt] and Rome [Italy, near Milan, where Ambrose lived, and whose disciple Augustine was]).The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-2629562559764740612011-03-04T20:27:42.669+00:002011-03-04T20:27:42.669+00:00Understood - and yet I don't see the big deal,...Understood - and yet I don't see the big deal, even assuming it is authentic Ambrose.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.com