tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post3313044993458411695..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Response to Todd Bordow on Capital Punishment for BlasphemyTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-26173840693681408242012-04-04T01:09:39.183+01:002012-04-04T01:09:39.183+01:00a) If it is really wrong in itself, why was it not...<i>a) If it is really wrong in itself, why was it not wrong for Old Testament Israel?</i><br />It was not wrong at all for OTI; it was mandated; it is holy, righteous & good. Today, it is wrong for the USA. We are a constitutional democracy, not a theocracy. Our founding docs are not the Pentateuch but the Constitution, etc.<br /><br /><i>b) If as to (a) one appeals to an "intrusion Hughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-3105707788210039002012-03-26T18:26:52.945+01:002012-03-26T18:26:52.945+01:00TurretinFan,
What do you think of this comment by...TurretinFan,<br /><br />What do you think of this comment by OPC Pastor Todd Bordrow, post 105:<br /> <br />“Not being a theonomist or theocrat, I do not believe it is the state’s role to enforce religion or Christian morality. So allowing something legally is not the same as endorsing it morally. I don’t want the state punishing people for practicing homosexuality. Other Christians disagree. Truth Unites... and Dividesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-19432236611296779472012-03-23T18:18:12.737+00:002012-03-23T18:18:12.737+00:00The Sabbath is clearly not part of the moral law. ...The Sabbath is clearly not part of the moral law. It was given as a special sign of the covenant God made with Israel (Ex 31:12-13). The law was not to be enforced on those traveling through Israel, but only on those residing within the city gates. Jesus clearly compared breaking the Sabbath to breaking other parts of the ceremonial law (Mt 12,1-12; Mk 2:23-28). In the same texts Jesus shows thatDanielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-1987192029183084592012-03-23T17:57:30.422+00:002012-03-23T17:57:30.422+00:00Why do you suppose that Sunday is the Sabbath?Why do you suppose that Sunday is the Sabbath?Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-29339795747514976482012-03-23T07:01:48.121+00:002012-03-23T07:01:48.121+00:00And of course, lest anyone be surprised that I lef...And of course, lest anyone be surprised that I left this out: The Mosaic economy republished the covenant of works. ;)David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-30870787337339550672012-03-23T06:41:57.570+00:002012-03-23T06:41:57.570+00:00Natamllc,
It's a good question (though I'...Natamllc,<br /><br />It's a good question (though I'm not sure how your question is motivated by what I said, so I'm not sure what sort of answer you're looking for). I will attempt to briefly give my take....<br /><br />I think in general, when we speak of the covenants of works and grace, we're highlighting the <i>ordo salutis</i>, that is, the transition from wrath to graceDavid R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-53607627871309954862012-03-23T05:56:38.541+00:002012-03-23T05:56:38.541+00:00I never denied that the 4th commandment has a 1st ...I never denied that the 4th commandment has a 1st and 2nd use. <br /><br />"That is a strange dichotomy."<br /><br />I understand why you would think so.<br /><br />"If men rest from the labor on 1 day in 7, on its face that is compliance, not profanation ..."<br /><br />Like I said, I'm all in favor of men resting from their labor on one day in seven.David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-40096171230148478832012-03-23T05:52:47.988+00:002012-03-23T05:52:47.988+00:00Okay. Help me understand something else if you don...Okay. Help me understand something else if you don't mind: Why doesn't the general equity of the OT law require the people of God (rather than the civil magistrate) to execute the capital penalty against the sabbath breaker (since that's the OT pattern)?David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-91035599565625401752012-03-23T02:08:09.479+00:002012-03-23T02:08:09.479+00:00"No, I don't see how it can belong to the..."No, I don't see how it can belong to the first or second use."<br /><br />Yikes! I wonder if folks like DGH and DVD agree with you. It would interesting to see an explicit denial of the 1st and 2nd uses of the 4th commandment from them.<br /><br />"While the fourth commandment is universally binding, the command to observe the Lord's Day is given only to the New Covenantturretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-22127432507786009252012-03-23T02:04:25.439+00:002012-03-23T02:04:25.439+00:00"I'm sure Tfan realizes there's no NT..."I'm sure Tfan realizes there's no NT evidence of non-Christians gathering on the Lord's Day or magistrates requiring them to do so."<br /><br />And, of course, even the OT pattern does not include requiring non-Christians to gather on the 1/7 day. While some Christian governments may have proposed such a requirement (Mass. colony for example), that is not something I do orturretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-76750037250662986922012-03-23T01:24:14.081+00:002012-03-23T01:24:14.081+00:00David,
in response to TFan, below, after ponderin...David,<br /><br />in response to TFan, below, after pondering what you were getting at, the thought occurred to me that you might have been or were a dispensationalist.<br /><br />Here's your quote republished so you don't have to go looking for it:::><br /><br /><i>"In the case of Israel under the Mosaic Covenant, the nation and the church were one and the same entity. Israelite Natamllcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-20480387372375189572012-03-23T01:13:16.302+00:002012-03-23T01:13:16.302+00:00ChaferDTS,
I know of some dispensationalists who ...ChaferDTS,<br /><br />I know of some dispensationalists who argue against the classic Protestant view of Revelation 1:10; glad to know you're not one them. I'm sure Tfan realizes there's no NT evidence of non-Christians gathering on the Lord's Day or magistrates requiring them to do so. But as you can see, his argument is built on inferences from the Creation Covenant and the David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-29016991829457337582012-03-23T00:33:20.648+00:002012-03-23T00:33:20.648+00:00Hi ChaferDTS,
No problem, I'm happy to be cor...Hi ChaferDTS,<br /><br />No problem, I'm happy to be corrected. Though I never intended to imply that we all don't subscribe to the grammatical-historical method. I guess we agree on how to figure out what the text says; we just disagree on how to figure out what it means. I described the dispensational hermeneutic as "literalistic" (rather than literal) because in my view, David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-86089598357674716792012-03-23T00:08:14.699+00:002012-03-23T00:08:14.699+00:00No, I don't see how it can belong to the first...No, I don't see how it can belong to the first or second use. While the fourth commandment is universally binding, the command to observe the Lord's Day is given only to the New Covenant saints. Yes, unregenerate masters should be restrained from working their slaves to death, but it would be a confused civil magistrate who thinks that profanation of the Lord's Day can be restrained David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-7915810334997808272012-03-22T23:33:30.307+00:002012-03-22T23:33:30.307+00:00The Lord's day is sunday. Church service for t...The Lord's day is sunday. Church service for that day is after the pattern based on the book of Acts as taking place 1st day of the week which is sunday. ( see Acts 20:7 ) While I personally do not hold to a " christian sabbath " but still the christian church did fellowship on the Lord's day. I believe we are free to fellowship on any days though. I follow Paul's exampleChaferDTSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-54605895856938266362012-03-22T23:00:32.494+00:002012-03-22T23:00:32.494+00:00Hi David. I would disagree with the way you decrib...Hi David. I would disagree with the way you decribed the dispensationalist reading of Scripture . Both sides agree with the literal grammatical method of interpretation. The area of issue is over the application of that through out Scripture. But I feel this is an irrelevent point for the topic here. The real contrast in this topic is Continuity & Discontinutity and neither will claim it is ChaferDTSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-40974204856098280772012-03-22T22:32:15.382+00:002012-03-22T22:32:15.382+00:00"I guess we're back to square one then, s..."I guess we're back to square one then, since I know of no biblical evidence that Lord's Day observance, which by its nature can only belong to the third use, is to be enforced on non-church members."<br /><br />That's an interesting claim. On its face it also belongs to the first and second use. The law points us to our creator and redeemer, and the law restrains those turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-4508547213374564682012-03-22T22:24:10.861+00:002012-03-22T22:24:10.861+00:00Reformed Apologist, I think the link I included in...Reformed Apologist, I think the link I included in my original comment largely answers your questions.David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46807143392024850612012-03-22T22:19:01.338+00:002012-03-22T22:19:01.338+00:00Natamllc,
No problem. But I wonder what it was I ...Natamllc,<br /><br />No problem. But I wonder what it was I said that caused you to think I might be a dispensationalist. I had merely pointed out that in the case of OT Israel, church and state were one, whereas under the New Covenant, they're not.David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-68285554320927619172012-03-22T21:57:40.220+00:002012-03-22T21:57:40.220+00:00I guess we're back to square one then, since I...I guess we're back to square one then, since I know of no biblical evidence that Lord's Day observance, which by its nature can only belong to the third use, is to be enforced on non-church members.David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-48298071631861860482012-03-22T21:09:33.177+00:002012-03-22T21:09:33.177+00:00If you are using the usual Reformed order, the thi...If you are using the usual Reformed order, the third use of the law is the use for the edification of believers. The first use is to lead us to the gospel. The second use is the civil use, namely to restrain evil. That's the use we should be talking about here, not the third use. All three uses were the same under both covenants, and consequently again argue for continuity.turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-18740395328302662672012-03-22T21:04:29.309+00:002012-03-22T21:04:29.309+00:00We agree that the moral law is universally binding...We agree that the moral law is universally binding. However, you apparently hold that the law in its third use, which under the New Covenant includes Lord's Day observance, applies to the unregenerate. I'm trying to argue that it doesn't.David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-13411473725420851192012-03-22T20:48:56.058+00:002012-03-22T20:48:56.058+00:00Oh well, then in that case I would not agree with ...Oh well, then in that case I would not agree with you that the moral law (in whatever expression) is not universally binding. It is.turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-2692126333898721382012-03-22T20:47:49.764+00:002012-03-22T20:47:49.764+00:00The moral law in its New Covenant expression.The moral law in its New Covenant expression.David R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-73834184770349915472012-03-22T20:45:51.564+00:002012-03-22T20:45:51.564+00:00I would chime in here, TFan, and add that Ruth, in...I would chime in here, TFan, and add that Ruth, in my view is an excellent example of that point you are making!<br /><br />Once she married into the gracious Family of God, how amazingly gracious that is is amazing in and of itself, we have the developing story of the progeny of Christ manifested!Natamllcnoreply@blogger.com