tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post3474574887882545544..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Scripture has its Own Authority - and Christ Alone is Our Mediator - A Response to Michael LiccioneTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger139125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-21199531472632108642010-10-25T18:23:05.655+01:002010-10-25T18:23:05.655+01:00John,
pardon me, you wrote:
The reformers did no...John,<br /><br />pardon me, you wrote:<br /><br /><i>The reformers did not reform anything, but invented new doctrines not found in the church fathers.</i><br /><br />Hmmmmm, ok, what do you have in mind that the Reformers invented? What were the new invented doctrines not found in the church fathers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-20947761320414126842010-10-24T23:08:28.580+01:002010-10-24T23:08:28.580+01:00Augustine from his writings held essentially what ...Augustine from his writings held essentially what is today known as total depravity, unconditional election, efficacious grace, limited atonement and perservance of the saints ( this part is debated ) . <br /><br />JM- So you say, but I doubt it very much. He probably believed in election and predestination, but definitely not limited atonement as Calvin taught it. He probably ad a different johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88782019765947937692010-10-24T23:00:23.541+01:002010-10-24T23:00:23.541+01:00The Reformers historically were part of the Wester...The Reformers historically were part of the Western Church presently known as Roman Catholicism and this shares it's historical link to the ancient church. <br /><br />JM – The reformers were not a united group except in their errors. The reformers did not reform anything, but invented new doctrines not found in the church fathers. The reformers did not have any authority to do what they johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-52665199583757441502010-10-24T16:07:50.474+01:002010-10-24T16:07:50.474+01:00"What was Augustine's doctrine on sin and..."What was Augustine's doctrine on sin and why do you think it is binding. after all Augustine is just another nobody outside a text you all scripture."<br /><br />Augustine from his writings held essentially what is today known as total depravity, unconditional election, efficacious grace, limited atonement and perservance of the saints ( this part is debated ) . Those in it's Chafer DTShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128689713330849677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-64321991934748648752010-10-24T15:49:42.007+01:002010-10-24T15:49:42.007+01:00Augustine's doctrine of sin and grace was taug...Augustine's doctrine of sin and grace was taught and held generally by all the Reformers. Calvinism is a more fully formulated strain of Augustianism. The other strain of it is Luthernism. All too often Roman Catholicism want to turn all the church fathers in to present day Roman Catholics. The RCC can't allow the church fathers to be who they were. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />&Chafer DTShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128689713330849677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-31851688452899478932010-10-24T08:22:32.837+01:002010-10-24T08:22:32.837+01:00M, you want to take this discussion over to my blo...M, you want to take this discussion over to my blog? I hate having to constantly bother TF about my comments.<br /><br />Nojohnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-91499346290201644172010-10-24T08:17:32.561+01:002010-10-24T08:17:32.561+01:00What was Augustine's doctrine on sin and why d...What was Augustine's doctrine on sin and why do you think it is binding. after all Augustine is just another nobody outside a text you all scripture.<br /><br />JMjohnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-28480244989856716102010-10-24T08:13:08.980+01:002010-10-24T08:13:08.980+01:00Augustine's doctrine of sin and grace was taug...Augustine's doctrine of sin and grace was taught and held generally by all the Reformers. Calvinism is a more fully formulated strain of Augustianism. The other strain of it is Luthernism. All too often Roman Catholicism want to turn all the church fathers in to present day Roman Catholics. The RCC can't allow the church fathers to be who they were. <br /><br />JM- and who were the johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-26364656379478749552010-10-24T03:31:41.103+01:002010-10-24T03:31:41.103+01:00Historian J.B. Bury tells us more about the papal ...Historian J.B. Bury tells us more about the papal blunderer Zosimus:<br /><br />http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/11*.html#ref44<br /><br />"In the list of Roman pontiffs the name of Zosimus is not one which the Catholic Church holds in high esteem. His brief pontificate fell at a critical period, when the Roman see was laying the foundations of the supremacyViisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-39984236621620871952010-10-24T03:31:38.345+01:002010-10-24T03:31:38.345+01:00Historian J.B. Bury tells us more about the papal ...Historian J.B. Bury tells us more about the papal blunderer Zosimus:<br /><br />http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/11*.html#ref44<br /><br />"In the list of Roman pontiffs the name of Zosimus is not one which the Catholic Church holds in high esteem. His brief pontificate fell at a critical period, when the Roman see was laying the foundations of the supremacyViisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-19339333245555032862010-10-24T03:22:42.113+01:002010-10-24T03:22:42.113+01:00"In the meantime Augustine was writing on the..."In the meantime Augustine was writing on the subject,39 and the African bishops condemned the Pelagian doctrine and asked Innocent to express his approval.40 A decision on the matter devolved upon Innocent's successor Zosimus, who was elected on March 17, A.D. 417, and the ear of this Pope was gained by Caelestius, who had come to Rome. Zosimus censured the African bishops for Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-43308347415237289012010-10-23T20:49:24.190+01:002010-10-23T20:49:24.190+01:00Replies are in the spam filter.
JM, you want to t...Replies are in the spam filter.<br /><br />JM, you want to take this discussion over to my blog? I hate having to constantly bother TF about my comments.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07883500968749756873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-74960085375203751392010-10-23T20:06:36.609+01:002010-10-23T20:06:36.609+01:00All too often Roman Catholicism want to turn all t...<i> All too often Roman Catholicism want to turn all the church fathers in to present day Roman Catholics.</i><br /><br /><b>AMEN</b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-82823807628793249232010-10-23T15:49:19.773+01:002010-10-23T15:49:19.773+01:00"He’s not a doctor of Calvinism that’s for su..."He’s not a doctor of Calvinism that’s for sure."<br /><br />Augustine's doctrine of sin and grace was taught and held generally by all the Reformers. Calvinism is a more fully formulated strain of Augustianism. The other strain of it is Luthernism. All too often Roman Catholicism want to turn all the church fathers in to present day Roman Catholics. The RCC can't allow the Chafer DTShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128689713330849677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-55869512756462611062010-10-23T15:45:29.902+01:002010-10-23T15:45:29.902+01:00"Augustine was not a Calvinist. You don’t eve..."Augustine was not a Calvinist. You don’t even know what it means for a will to be free."<br /><br />Luthernism and Calvinism are two strains of Augustinianism. Augustine taught all the essentials of it in his writing on the subject of election / predestination. I dont believe you read him for yourself.<br /><br />Here is his writing online:<br /><br />http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/Chafer DTShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128689713330849677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-86522151683404579262010-10-23T13:08:15.581+01:002010-10-23T13:08:15.581+01:00JM2- There is no middle ground concerning the ulti...JM2- There is no middle ground concerning the ultimate end loved by the will above all things. Either a man loves himself or God above all things. If himself, then he is in the state of mortal sin and cannot change his will to love God, unless God regenerates him. This is the scriptural and Catholic position. If the man loves God above all things, he is free to sin and fall away from God as his johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-85183324556628798802010-10-23T13:07:45.966+01:002010-10-23T13:07:45.966+01:00R- given that God created and sustains all other t...R- given that God created and sustains all other things (Colossians 1:16-17), it is contradictory to simultaneously affirm free will and God’s eternal omniscience (Isaiah 40:14),<br /><br />JM2- God created all things. He created man as a rational animal and rationality means a man has an intellect and a will. The will is free as shown above. Creation does not exclude freedom at all. <br /><br />johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-38022804808743867632010-10-23T13:07:17.400+01:002010-10-23T13:07:17.400+01:00JM2- Definitions are made from terms that are easi...JM2- Definitions are made from terms that are easier to understand. There are methods used to arrive at a definition to ensure the definition accurately describes the nature of the thing being spoken about. How me where my church teaches men are able to choose to accept God’s grace or reject it apart from antecedent, extrinsic determination. If you don’t, then red herring noted. <br /><br />JM- johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-79053314550967171072010-10-23T13:06:42.540+01:002010-10-23T13:06:42.540+01:00JM- “Only showing you the simple problem in assumi...JM- “Only showing you the simple problem in assuming inspiration is the first principle of faith. Other principles are assumed before this principle such as the principle of identity, the principle of prime truth revealed, the principle of causation, the principles of grammar and so on. Your first principle epistemology is laughable.”<br /><br />R- I was right. Unfortunately, you have just johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-58071996350190463152010-10-23T13:06:10.521+01:002010-10-23T13:06:10.521+01:00JM- “Only showing you the simple problem in assumi...JM- “Only showing you the simple problem in assuming inspiration is the first principle of faith. Other principles are assumed before this principle such as the principle of identity, the principle of prime truth revealed, the principle of causation, the principles of grammar and so on. Your first principle epistemology is laughable.”<br /><br />R- I was right. Unfortunately, you have just johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-67005696991941631682010-10-23T13:05:49.192+01:002010-10-23T13:05:49.192+01:00JM- “Inspiration of the text is not self attesting...JM- “Inspiration of the text is not self attesting. The text as text is only a text and that is sefl attesting. How do we know? Because when we look at the page we see the text. Therefore inspiration of a text is not the first principle of a text. Furthermore, it is not the first principle of reason or faith either because of reasons already discussed”<br /><br />R- Firstly, what you say johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-84658596008557048522010-10-23T13:05:32.145+01:002010-10-23T13:05:32.145+01:00Bottom line – you have failed to provide a logical...Bottom line – you have failed to provide a logical argument for the inspiration of a text, the meaning of the word inspiration and the canon of scripture from the text.<br /><br />JM- “More damning still is you ignore my statement and add a false statement “my church says so”.”<br /><br />R- If your church doesn’t say so and neither did any ECF in the first 3 centuries AD, why do you regard it asjohnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-28572329027495369232010-10-23T13:05:03.358+01:002010-10-23T13:05:03.358+01:00“No, you demonstrate your statement.”
If you had ...“No, you demonstrate your statement.”<br /><br />If you had read the link on empiricism I posted, you would see that I have. For instance:<br /><br />//[Empiric principles are] predicated on reasoning which cannot account for all possible contingencies. One might wonder whether “[this desk is red]” is a proposition contingent on the veracity of the proposition “ducks can swim” or “the Protestant johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-40483615072315905632010-10-23T13:04:40.622+01:002010-10-23T13:04:40.622+01:00“No, you demonstrate your statement.”
If you had ...“No, you demonstrate your statement.”<br /><br />If you had read the link on empiricism I posted, you would see that I have. For instance:<br /><br />//[Empiric principles are] predicated on reasoning which cannot account for all possible contingencies. One might wonder whether “[this desk is red]” is a proposition contingent on the veracity of the proposition “ducks can swim” or “the Protestant johnmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672413192359113485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-5061373942534188392010-10-23T00:02:31.718+01:002010-10-23T00:02:31.718+01:00Part II
”Check out the high priest Annas who prop...Part II<br /><br />”Check out the high priest Annas who prophesied about Christ even though he was evil. Prophecy and therefore infallibility is a charism given through authority. Even in the OT we see men prophecy when they are evil – Balaams prophecy to bless Israel for example. Clearly prophecy and sanctity and not reliant upon each other. Your position is pure invention.”<br /><br />Any Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07883500968749756873noreply@blogger.com