tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post3836092480181091859..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: What does it mean to "Propitiate"?Turretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46245963521854697642007-10-06T17:08:00.000+01:002007-10-06T17:08:00.000+01:00O wrote: "I have an infallible source for the corr...O wrote: "I have an infallible source for the correctness of petitioning the saints, namely the 7th ecumenical council."<BR/><BR/>I respond: The 7th ecumenical council was not infallible. In any event, the 7th ecumenical council did not (as far as I can recall) make the claim that such petitions were made in the first two centuries after Christ or any of the millennia before Christ.<BR/><BR/>O Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-89990536207533341962007-10-05T00:47:00.000+01:002007-10-05T00:47:00.000+01:00T: I have documentation for Adam's age etc. I have...T: I have documentation for Adam's age etc. I have an infallible historical source for my information.<BR/><BR/>O: I have an infallible source for the correctness of petitioning the saints, namely the 7th ecumenical council.<BR/><BR/>Ahh you say, but the 7th council is not authentic, it is not contemporary with the apostles.<BR/><BR/>But your documentation for Adam is from the pentatuch which hasorthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-59704901926178561742007-10-04T18:21:00.000+01:002007-10-04T18:21:00.000+01:00I was using that particular aspect of your traditi...I was using that particular aspect of your tradition (1st C saint-praying) as an example. We've clearly been off topic for the last few rounds of discussion.<BR/>***<BR/>I have documentation for Adam's age etc. I have an infallible historical source for my information.<BR/>***<BR/>Your argument is an argument from silence, namely: if it is wrong, how could it creep in without great public Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-54353973457707281212007-10-04T16:40:00.000+01:002007-10-04T16:40:00.000+01:00What, are we discussing 1st C prayer to saints now...What, are we discussing 1st C prayer to saints now? I thought the topic at hand was propitiation.<BR/><BR/>Yes, there's "good" reasons to doubt lots of things. There are "good" reasons to believe Adam didn't live 6000 years ago, but that seems to be very little impediment to something like 75% of professing American Christians.<BR/><BR/>So the scholars tell us there are "good" reasons to suggest orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-85251140128131927622007-10-04T15:56:00.000+01:002007-10-04T15:56:00.000+01:00O wrote: "So if we have an epistemological underbe...O wrote: "So if we have an epistemological underbelly, it only compares to your lack altogether of a belly."<BR/><BR/>I respond: I don't have to have an epistemological belly, because I'm not the one making the assertion.<BR/><BR/>As previously wrote: "<B>You have no warrant for your opinions - at least nothing transitive. That's the problem.</B>"<BR/><BR/>The fact that you personally consider itTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-36160743651161789022007-10-04T03:24:00.000+01:002007-10-04T03:24:00.000+01:00T: "You have no warrant for your opinions"O: Do yo...T: "You have no warrant for your opinions"<BR/><BR/>O: Do you mean warrant in the technical sense of a document?<BR/><BR/>Your complaint is equivilent to me pointing out that you have no warrant for your particular canon of scripture.<BR/><BR/>The difference is though, that we acknowledge tradition as a sufficient foundation for knowledge, whereas you do not.<BR/><BR/>So if we have an orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-32094367711313394432007-10-04T02:36:00.000+01:002007-10-04T02:36:00.000+01:00I understand how it works, and I'm noting your epi...I understand how it works, and I'm noting your epistemological underbelly on these issues.<BR/><BR/>You have no warrant for your opinions - at least nothing transitive. That's the problem.<BR/><BR/>I don't see much more point in continuing this particular dialog - do you?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps there is some more interesting topic.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-54445464243879531362007-10-04T01:02:00.000+01:002007-10-04T01:02:00.000+01:00Do you understand how Orthodoxy works? Or are you ...Do you understand how Orthodoxy works? Or are you just complaining about how it works?orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-5111908511258988962007-10-04T00:00:00.000+01:002007-10-04T00:00:00.000+01:00Orthodox:No, I'm not lecturing you on Orthodox tra...Orthodox:<BR/><BR/>No, I'm not lecturing you on Orthodox tradition, I'm demonstrating to the reader that Orthodoxy makes very few - and mostly negative - dogmatic claims.<BR/><BR/>You make lots of claims about what Orthodoxy says, but you're full of hot air: all you can do is quote churchmen (which you even fail to do here).<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-8549825436679899492007-10-03T23:27:00.000+01:002007-10-03T23:27:00.000+01:00T: It's a theology of radical humanism - the one t...T: It's a theology of radical humanism - the one thing that has the ability to overcome God's love is man.<BR/><BR/>And, of course, it is not the "tradition" of Orthodoxy. There is no requirement that a person hold to such radical humanism in order to be Orthodox.<BR/><BR/>O: You are lecturing me on Orthodox tradition?<BR/><BR/>Adam became separated from God by his own decision. Satan became orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-70805245512477703212007-10-03T00:56:00.000+01:002007-10-03T00:56:00.000+01:00One germane comment you had, was an answer of "sur...One germane comment you had, was an answer of "sure" to my question about whether the answer to "who is able to separate us from the love of God" was supposedly "we are" in Orthodoxy.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your frank answer, and I'll be addressing that theology in due course. It's a theology of radical humanism - the one thing that has the ability to overcome God's love is man.<BR/><BR/>And, of Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-49877264139193264842007-10-03T00:45:00.000+01:002007-10-03T00:45:00.000+01:00Dear Orthodox:When you post long posts I have seve...Dear Orthodox:<BR/><BR/>When you post long posts I have several options:<BR/><BR/>1) reject the whole thing and (apparently) offend you.<BR/><BR/>2) break the post up into manageable segments and place them under appopriate topics (which would be my preference if I had limitless time)<BR/><BR/>3) publish the whole thing and derail the combox onto a thousand tangents.<BR/><BR/>My reason for my Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-11806211901280174072007-10-02T14:16:00.000+01:002007-10-02T14:16:00.000+01:00Orthodox wrote (in part of a long post that was no...Orthodox wrote (in part of a long post that was not approved in whole): "<I>Orthodoxy to the rescue. Orthodoxy teaches the opt-out system. Christ really propitiates the sins of the whole world, but some cancel it out by rejecting the savior.</I>"<BR/><BR/>I respond: If that's an accurate representation of Orthodoxy (though it is not in any of the 7 ECs that I've ever read) then Orthodoxy answers Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-24641509761556658692007-09-27T23:42:00.000+01:002007-09-27T23:42:00.000+01:00I posted a better constructed (a relative term!) a...I posted a better constructed (a relative term!) argument on what I'm getting at on my blog, along with a few interesting scriptures.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that all cases of reprobate prosperity is just "spillover" from elect blessings... and the question of "mere gratuity" is what I'm wondering about.<BR/><BR/>However, as I note on my blog, your point B does make sense and is what I have TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-55467495267307267752007-09-27T22:17:00.000+01:002007-09-27T22:17:00.000+01:00Dear TJ,- The technical answer, I think, is that I...Dear TJ,<BR/><BR/>- The technical answer, I think, is that I use Unicode Greek - the non-technical answer is that cut and paste from a particular Greek New Testament I have, which has properly formatted Greek characters.<BR/><BR/>- Going toward the point on the forums: <BR/>a) I don't know whether the fact that God is longsuffering toward the reprobate is properly attributable to the work of Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-3847164922596423762007-09-27T20:36:00.000+01:002007-09-27T20:36:00.000+01:00What I want to know, is how do you get greek chara...What I want to know, is how do you get greek characters to show in your blog text?<BR/><BR/>Thanks... I totally agree. My point in the forums was not that Christ had any sort of saving effect on the reprobate (neither hypothetical, nor "intermediate"). My point in the forum was that God's interim tolerance for the sins of the reprobate (i.e., the simple fact that the reprobate are still alive),TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-37895582904956126912007-09-27T18:41:00.000+01:002007-09-27T18:41:00.000+01:00Don't forget Esther 7:10."And so the king's wrath ...Don't forget Esther 7:10.<BR/>"And so the king's wrath was pacified" Once heard a sermon that said this verse is like the turning away of the wrath of the King of Kings. Not 100% analogy but...<BR/>--GodithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com