tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post4387306135220182724..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Responding to Beckwith on AquinasTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-77923424405630292062010-01-05T14:51:30.903+00:002010-01-05T14:51:30.903+00:00I said papal infallibility, not papal authority. ...I said papal infallibility, not papal authority. I'm not sure if you missed that or not.<br /><br />As to the first part of your comment, the Scripture is what is revealed by God, and the church's teaching is derived from that revelation of God, according to Aquinas.<br /><br />There's good reason to think that when Aquinas is speaking about divine revelation he's speaking Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72331832476978850332010-01-05T13:03:29.780+00:002010-01-05T13:03:29.780+00:00Again, Aquinas when talking about "First Trut...Again, Aquinas when talking about "First Truth" is talking about God's Revelation. There is a distinction between God's Revelation and Holy Writ, whether one is Catholic or not. The details of the distinction remain to be worked out. In that context -----------<br /><br />Sic igitur in fide, si consideremus formalem rationem obiecti, nihil est aliud quam veritas prima, non enim Ransomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-26863486043267553552010-01-04T15:48:49.535+00:002010-01-04T15:48:49.535+00:00Ransom:
The Latin expression: "doctrinae Ecc...Ransom:<br /><br />The Latin expression: "doctrinae Ecclesiae, quae procedit ex veritate prima in Scripturis sacris manifestata" seems to make it pretty clear that the doctrine of the Church proceeds from the primary truth manifested in the Sacred Scripture.<br /><br />The most straightforward way of reading that expression is that the doctrine of the church proceeds from the ScripturalTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-6358103490343742002010-01-04T15:12:11.148+00:002010-01-04T15:12:11.148+00:00Mr. Miller,
[partly reposted from the other comme...Mr. Miller,<br /><br />[partly reposted from the other comment box] To be clear, I'm not citing Aquinas to prove <i>sola scriptura</i>. He seemed to hold to a view of the primacy of Scripture, but not necessarily a view that would be exactly like the Reformers. The point in reviewing a notable theologian like Aquinas is to observe that his position is neither ours nor yours. He represents Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-81515175007845549232010-01-03T21:28:18.001+00:002010-01-03T21:28:18.001+00:00"Now the formal object of faith is:
1) the F...<i>"Now the formal object of faith is:</i><br /><br /><i>1) the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and</i><br /><br /><i>2) the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth.</i>"<br /><br />Reading it that way, both derive from First Truth but in different ways.<br /><br />Manifest means shown forth or revealed.<br /><br /><i>1 Peter 1:20 --He was foreknown before Ransomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-40699933957972208402010-01-03T20:24:08.025+00:002010-01-03T20:24:08.025+00:00Sorry, double post.
Anyway, no problem Turretinfa...Sorry, double post.<br /><br />Anyway, no problem Turretinfan. I can see that you are very knowledgeable on this subject, and I'm learning a lot from you. There is no justification, in my mind, for the hostilities that normally surround these sorts of debates.<br /><br />Returning to the topic at hand, does anyone else here find it highly ironic that we are appealing to Church Fathers and Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03196400928897519510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-76571367043334236142010-01-03T20:19:02.959+00:002010-01-03T20:19:02.959+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03196400928897519510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-82645136602367885552010-01-03T06:33:14.533+00:002010-01-03T06:33:14.533+00:00I appreciate your kind response, Mr. Miller.I appreciate your kind response, Mr. Miller.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-65609237074615135832010-01-03T03:52:33.950+00:002010-01-03T03:52:33.950+00:00All very good points, TurrentinFan. I will need to...All very good points, TurrentinFan. I will need to look into this further. My apologies for such a simplistic answer, and I am a newbie to Latin, so I appreciate you pointing out my mistake on the use of articles.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03196400928897519510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-42615718141286407262010-01-02T20:54:54.022+00:002010-01-02T20:54:54.022+00:00Ransom:
Consider this way of reading the sentence...Ransom:<br /><br />Consider this way of reading the sentence:<br /><br />Now the formal object of faith is:<br /><br />1) the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and <br /><br />2) the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth.<br /><br />If read that way, the sentence appears to indicate that the Holy Writ is the manifestation of the First Truth, and the teaching of the Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-22079455708299282872010-01-02T20:49:05.228+00:002010-01-02T20:49:05.228+00:00"Now the formal object of faith is the First ..."Now the formal object of faith is the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth."<br /><br />The First Truth (as manifested in Holy Writ) has to be divine and infallible -- in other words, it is God, or rather, more precisely, the Truthfulness of God in revealing Himself. <br /><br />I think you have managed to make Ransomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-34401151252210261362010-01-02T18:54:17.246+00:002010-01-02T18:54:17.246+00:00Phil:
Thanks for letting me know about the update...Phil:<br /><br />Thanks for letting me know about the update. I should note that contrary to the note you provide, the contrast is actually most clearly presented in this portion of the quotation: "many have written about Catholic truth, there is a difference among them: those who wrote the canonical scriptures ... ."<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-36732138475867929762010-01-02T13:27:13.538+00:002010-01-02T13:27:13.538+00:00Mr. Miller:
First of all, please note that the ch...Mr. Miller:<br /><br />First of all, please note that the challenge itself and a longer exposition on Aquinas and the rule of faith may be found here: (<a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2009/12/aquinas-rule-of-faith-sola-canonica.html" rel="nofollow">link</a>)<br /><br />"I answer that it would seem unreasonable to interpret the quote on scripture being the rule of faith aside from Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-49263366914893783892010-01-02T04:36:50.874+00:002010-01-02T04:36:50.874+00:00As a tribute to the format of St. Thomas' resp...As a tribute to the format of St. Thomas' responses...<br /><br />On the contrary, St. Thomas also said: 'The formal object of faith is Primary Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the teaching of the Church which proceeds from the Primary Truth. hence, he who does not embrace the teaching of the Church as a divine and infallible law does not possess the habit of faith' [from Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03196400928897519510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-80842548183951259632010-01-01T15:13:41.457+00:002010-01-01T15:13:41.457+00:00New and Improved....
Thomas Aquinas and sola scri...New and Improved....<br /><br />Thomas Aquinas and sola scriptura<br /><br />http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a113.htm<br /><br />Phil P (PhilVaz)PhilVazhttp://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88258223121228904662009-12-31T14:23:26.021+00:002009-12-31T14:23:26.021+00:00Mr. Bellisario,
I hope that you will try to focus...Mr. Bellisario,<br /><br />I hope that you will try to focus on what Aquinas says specifically about the rule of faith, as opposed to wandering off into other areas.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-12306660634714166712009-12-31T14:19:14.828+00:002009-12-31T14:19:14.828+00:00Thanks for following up with this TF. I think the ...Thanks for following up with this TF. I think the glibness with which Shea and Beckwith and others are responding does not comport at all with the seriousness of the subject.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-43119000370615954212009-12-31T07:29:55.872+00:002009-12-31T07:29:55.872+00:00I am putting the finishing touches on a response t...I am putting the finishing touches on a response to this Aquinas subject. It is quite clear that his views on Scripture, Tradition and the Church were very close in line with what the Catholic Church teaches today. I really do not see how you are coming to these conclusions with the texts you are citing.James Bellisariohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01786370386909499672noreply@blogger.com