tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post4867663475314459691..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Christian Miracle-Working Has CeasedTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-77697333055858401712007-07-31T02:26:00.000+01:002007-07-31T02:26:00.000+01:00The view I gave is based on the KJV 's margin note...The view I gave is based on the KJV 's margin note concerning the word "prophecy" in this passage stating "Heb. prophet" (i.e. the Hebrew literally says "prophet" not "prophecy") based on which I understood the text to mean to seal up the office of prophet. But I suppose, actually that "to seal up prophet" could mean both, to seal up the prophecies that went before, and to seal up the office of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-59732072738869470922007-07-30T23:58:00.000+01:002007-07-30T23:58:00.000+01:00Thanks, Josh!Interestingly, Martin Anstey (whom I ...Thanks, Josh!<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, Martin Anstey (whom I mention in my most recent post) also dates the 70 weeks to conclude at the destruction of Jerusalem.<BR/><BR/>There's a separate question attached, which relates to the interpretation of what it means to seal up vision and prophecy ... does it mean to fulfill the previously given prophecies? or to put an end to the gifts themselves?<BR/>Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-79353899165856825662007-07-30T23:47:00.000+01:002007-07-30T23:47:00.000+01:00My view is also based on the fact that no NT write...My view is also based on the fact that no NT writers mention the destruction of the temple as an accomplished fact, which I think they would have mentioned had they been writing after its destruction. But as you say about verse 24 refering to the work of the Messiah alone and not the Messiah plus the apostles, in reality the ceasing of tongues etc. could never be called the work of the apostles. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-29347044401682188002007-07-30T17:43:00.000+01:002007-07-30T17:43:00.000+01:00Dear Josh,Thanks for your comments. I can't fully...Dear Josh,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comments. I can't fully agree with your analysis of Daniel 9, though I find it interesting.<BR/><BR/>The seventy weeks are:<BR/><BR/>7 weeks to the rebuilding of Jerusalem<BR/><BR/>62 weeks until the death of Christ<BR/><BR/>1 week of covenant confirmation.<BR/><BR/>I'm inclined to read verse 24 as speaking of the work of Messiah alone, not the work of MessiahTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-20442202702889818952007-07-30T17:20:00.000+01:002007-07-30T17:20:00.000+01:00The cessation of at least the gift of prophecy is ...The cessation of at least the gift of prophecy is demonstrated by the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel, Dan 9:24, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish F68 the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and <I>to seal up the vision and prophecy</I>, and to anoint the most Holy"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-27971435963501801802007-07-12T21:12:00.000+01:002007-07-12T21:12:00.000+01:00TF,Here is my round-about answer (bear with..)The ...TF,<BR/><BR/>Here is my round-about answer (bear with..)<BR/><BR/>The gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 are (verbatim from the ESV, omitting repeats):<BR/><BR/>8 ...utterance of wisdom<BR/>...utterance of knowledge<BR/>9...faith<BR/>...healing<BR/>10 ... working of miracles<BR/>... prophecy<BR/>...ability to distinguish between spirits<BR/>...various kinds of tongues<BR/>...interpretation of tongues.<BR/>TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-74090084334289921332007-07-12T18:19:00.000+01:002007-07-12T18:19:00.000+01:00Dear TJ,I'm not sure whether it would place me in ...Dear TJ,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure whether it would place me in the "hard" camp or not, but:<BR/><BR/>I believe that the extraordinary gifts (ability to place one's hands on the blind and restore sight, speak in unstudied languages, and the like) are gone. <BR/><BR/>I believe that God is not bound by the "laws of nature," so He may answer prayers in ways that are miraculous.<BR/><BR/>I believe that Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-38927462567533231482007-07-12T18:00:00.000+01:002007-07-12T18:00:00.000+01:00TF,I agree with your last comment. I don't want t...TF,<BR/><BR/>I agree with your last comment. I don't want to clog your blog (particularly this post) with a discussion on cessationism, but would be interested in exploring this (whether/how spiritual gifts are given, used, and manifested today) further with you. If you are a "hard cessationist" (??) I suppose it would not be fruitful. But if you agree that the Gifts are still given/used "in TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-486412103094772562007-07-12T14:12:00.000+01:002007-07-12T14:12:00.000+01:00Dear TJ,I can agree that God still answers prayers...Dear TJ,<BR/><BR/>I can agree that God still answers prayers, including prayers for healing.<BR/><BR/>Some of the ways that He answers prayer are not explainable by physicians.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, I think there is a qualitative difference between God responding to the fervent prayers of His people, and God giving individual messengers the ability to heal others miraculously by shadow, touch, Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72668442513987729052007-07-12T14:05:00.000+01:002007-07-12T14:05:00.000+01:00TF,Thanks for the clarification.I would still affi...TF,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the clarification.<BR/><BR/>I would still affirm that we mere humans are tools (pun intended..)<BR/><BR/>I see no reason scripturally that God works now only directly or through angels... and in my walk I have observed humans being used as instruments of His work (in ways that display they are Gifted).<BR/><BR/>However, I agree insofar as these workings today are more TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-67034204206785894812007-07-11T23:10:00.000+01:002007-07-11T23:10:00.000+01:00Dear TJ,If I clarified that I agree that God still...Dear TJ,<BR/><BR/>If I clarified that I agree that God still Providentially alters the ordinary course of "nature," either directly or at the hand of angels, but that God no longer has prophets, tongue-speakers, interpreters-of-tongues, healers, and those who can call down fire from heaven, would you agree?<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-3899645378525871272007-07-11T21:53:00.000+01:002007-07-11T21:53:00.000+01:00TF,I appreciate your point that today's "miracle w...TF,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your point that today's "miracle working" is fraught with hoax, etc. <BR/><BR/>I note, however, that the OT and NT have accounts of the same (of which I'm sure you are aware).<BR/><BR/>I have to disagree with you that the gifts have ceased. I think God uses them even today in both a practical and testimonial way. I agree with you that all works are due to Divine TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-18620215128476422882007-07-11T15:55:00.000+01:002007-07-11T15:55:00.000+01:00Excellent post. Really comprehensive.--GodithExcellent post. Really comprehensive.<BR/>--GodithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46779898713419657122007-07-11T00:04:00.000+01:002007-07-11T00:04:00.000+01:00Dear Reginald,Thanks for your comment.The concise ...Dear Reginald,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment.<BR/><BR/>The concise argument is:<BR/><BR/>1. The gifts (although many had a useful secondary purpose) were given for a demonstrative purpose.<BR/><BR/>2. That demonstrative purpose is complete, for Scripture has been completed.<BR/><BR/>3. Scripture both speaks of its own completion (in the oft-disputed passage in Revelation), and speaks of theTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-4010451576497448762007-07-10T23:53:00.000+01:002007-07-10T23:53:00.000+01:00Hello Turretinfan,With respect, it doesn't seem to...Hello Turretinfan,<BR/><BR/>With respect, it doesn't seem to me that you have demonstrated a cessation at all. You have sought to debunk claims of the miraculous, and certainly many may be rejected. But that is different from a demonstration that as a class they have ceased, even on your own terms (by which I mean: an attempt to demonstrate from the Bible that they have ceased). Have I missed it?Fred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.com