tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post5493065680291650403..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Calvinism Distinguished HistoricallyTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-20324436127414394422008-12-12T21:08:00.000+00:002008-12-12T21:08:00.000+00:00Salt,Quite possibly the answer lies in the differe...Salt,<BR/><BR/>Quite possibly the answer lies in the difference between a strict sense of "sanctification" and a more broad sense of "sanctification."<BR/><BR/>-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-51239972198085847132008-12-10T14:38:00.000+00:002008-12-10T14:38:00.000+00:00TF/Steve,While I wait for a reply from my previous...TF/Steve,<BR/><BR/>While I wait for a reply from my previous question…<BR/><BR/>I noticed that there is a piece on monergism.com that argues that sanctification is synergistic. See <A HREF="http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/questions/sanctification01.html" REL="nofollow">here </A>:<BR/><BR/>I believe the piece is written by John Hendryx, Director of monergism.com. Is it possible bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-27067496445362955692008-12-09T20:10:00.000+00:002008-12-09T20:10:00.000+00:00Thanks TF for letting me ask Dan that question!I h...Thanks TF for letting me ask Dan that question!<BR/><BR/>I have posted over at Dan's blog and asked him a question regarding Point 5 of the 5 points of the Opposers of Dutch Reformed Theology at the time, causing the convening of the Synod of Dordt and their judgment, a judgment quite like the judgment from James at Act 15. I am waiting his reply.<BR/><BR/>I have just reviewed again the 5 Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-59439452521772227882008-12-09T19:23:00.000+00:002008-12-09T19:23:00.000+00:00TF, thanks for the link to Dordt in Latin and Engl...TF, thanks for the link to Dordt in Latin and English at Ethereal!<BR/><BR/>I would ask Dan a question?<BR/><BR/>As I am reading the English version, I am not familiar with Latin and cannot read it, although a disgression, my School training our children are teaching Latin to the youngest grades now, a new development in the last couple of years, I came to this phrase at Art. 13: <BR/><BR/>"....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-36419668593855268702008-12-09T16:42:00.000+00:002008-12-09T16:42:00.000+00:00TF,While I wait for a reply to my previous questio...TF,<BR/><BR/>While I wait for a reply to my previous question from you and/or Steve … I noticed that a monergism.com piece argues that sanctification is synergistic. See <A HREF="http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/questions/sanctification01.html" REL="nofollow"> HERE</A>.<BR/><BR/>I believe that the piece was written by John Hendryx, Director of monergism.com. Is it possible that bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-62908049396886514542008-12-09T02:53:00.000+00:002008-12-09T02:53:00.000+00:00I think you are confusing me and Steve. Neverthel...I think you are confusing me and Steve. Nevertheless, that paragraph is not necessarily in conflict with the supralapsarian view.<BR/><BR/>After all, the supralapsarian view does teach that it is only the sovereign decree of God that distinguishes between equally lost people.<BR/><BR/>That is an expression of its present effect. If the context were a debate over the order of decrees, it would Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-47683416806027457072008-12-09T02:43:00.000+00:002008-12-09T02:43:00.000+00:00Dear TF,Here’s one of the primary phrases in quest...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/>Here’s one of the primary phrases in question from Article 6:<BR/><BR/>Latin:<BR/><BR/>Atque hic potissimum sese nobis aperit profunda, misericors pariter et justa hominum æqualiter perditorum discretio; sive decretum illud electionis et reprobationis in verbo Dei revelatum.<BR/><BR/>Translation on Reformed.org:<BR/><BR/>And in this especially is disclosed to us his act-Godismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-44248117979672610362008-12-09T01:59:00.000+00:002008-12-09T01:59:00.000+00:00TF/Steve, Would you mind further explaning what w...TF/Steve, Would you mind further explaning what was meant by: "Rather, [synergsim] involves a Catholic view of man's will as well as our capacity for congruent merit."<BR/><BR/>Thanks.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-59024608600890179322008-12-09T00:04:00.000+00:002008-12-09T00:04:00.000+00:00Dear TF,I agree, but the WCF that Steve cited was ...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/>I agree, but the WCF that Steve cited was about the glory of God, not the elect... so my comment was relevant.<BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/>DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-78124907768807175962008-12-08T23:38:00.000+00:002008-12-08T23:38:00.000+00:00Dan wrote: "But infra's do hold that God purposed ...Dan wrote: "But infra's do hold that God purposed the fall as a means of glorification."<BR/><BR/>Only in the sense of the glorification of God, not the glorification of the elect.<BR/><BR/>Supras hold that God purposed the fall as a means of glorification of the elect.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-9953950516946998572008-12-08T19:45:00.000+00:002008-12-08T19:45:00.000+00:00Here's a link to the original Latin with English t...Here's a link to the original Latin with English translation (<A HREF="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds3.iv.xvi.html" REL="nofollow">link</A>, from Schaff.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-85105900982535438072008-12-08T17:22:00.000+00:002008-12-08T17:22:00.000+00:00It may be that Sproul is using "synergism" and "co...It may be that Sproul is using "synergism" and "cooperation" as synonyms: Greek and Latin derivatives respectively.<BR/><BR/>That may be correct in terms of pure etymology, but, of course, synergism is a loaded word, a term of art with a technical meaning in theology. <BR/><BR/>In dogmatic usage, it means far more than merely to "work with." Rather, it involves a Catholic view of man's will as stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-24763023903254148212008-12-08T15:17:00.000+00:002008-12-08T15:17:00.000+00:00Salt,Probably the easiest explanation is that R.C....Salt,<BR/><BR/>Probably the easiest explanation is that R.C. Sproul was speaking loosely, not precisely.<BR/><BR/>In any event, as you can see from the quotations I provided, this is not just my view - it is the view of the Reformed churches, including the church of which R.C. is a member.<BR/><BR/>I would expect that R.C.'s comments were aimed at countering "easy believism" in which people "get Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-30830606934912970882008-12-08T15:09:00.000+00:002008-12-08T15:09:00.000+00:00Thank you for the reply. R.C. Sproul writes in Gr...Thank you for the reply. R.C. Sproul writes in Grace Unknown, "As part of the process of our sanctification, perseverance is a synergistic work. This means it is a cooperative effort between God and us. We persevere as he preserves." (p. 212)<BR/><BR/>Do you think Sproul's statement can be reconciled with your view? Do you differ with Sproul in this regard?<BR/><BR/>Thanks.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-30080778746886222272008-12-07T21:32:00.000+00:002008-12-07T21:32:00.000+00:00Dear PuritanReformed,In other words, this seems to...Dear PuritanReformed,<BR/><BR/><I>In other words, this seems to be mentioning the order of God decrees in their execution.</I><BR/><BR/>God’s act, in the statement in bold, is election, not the execution of election. It's clearly saying that the object of God's election is fallen mankind (not that the execution of God's election impacts fallen men).<BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/>DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-23288664238153088972008-12-07T21:08:00.000+00:002008-12-07T21:08:00.000+00:00Salt,The Reformed position is that sanctification ...Salt,<BR/><BR/>The Reformed position is that sanctification is monergistic:<BR/><BR/>"Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God has, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-33091673892109896372008-12-07T21:02:00.000+00:002008-12-07T21:02:00.000+00:00Reymond's view on the order of decrees seems to be...Reymond's view on the order of decrees seems to be unique to Reymond, in my opinion. I cannot recall any earlier theologian having the same order as he does.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-2866770256700158512008-12-07T20:11:00.000+00:002008-12-07T20:11:00.000+00:00You wrote, "With or without the acronym, the five ...You wrote, "With or without the acronym, the five points have served as a dividing line between Calvinistic monergism and Arminian Synergism."<BR/><BR/>I have read conflicting statements regarding whether sanctification (from a Reformed perspective) is synergistic or monergistic. Do you have an opinion on the matter? Thanks.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72456758143734104222008-12-07T16:25:00.000+00:002008-12-07T16:25:00.000+00:00Godismyjudge:I don't think that would help you. Th...Godismyjudge:<BR/><BR/>I don't think that would help you. The quote seems to be mentioning what God decrees in eternal time. In other words, this seems to be mentioning the order of God decrees in their execution. Dr. Reymond's modified supralapsarian position as seen in his <I>New Systematic Theology</I> does seem to answer this objection well.Daniel Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00678184721218949112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-33975364067610509572008-12-07T04:49:00.000+00:002008-12-07T04:49:00.000+00:00Dear TF,Do you have access to the original?God be ...Dear TF,<BR/><BR/>Do you have access to the original?<BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/>DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-37170931890497679122008-12-07T04:48:00.000+00:002008-12-07T04:48:00.000+00:00Dear PuritanReformed,Article 6 may be even more cl...Dear PuritanReformed,<BR/><BR/>Article 6 may be even more clear:<BR/><BR/>The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decision. For all his works are known to God from eternity (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). In accordance with this decision he graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of his chosen ones and inclines them to Godismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-39327143387691448532008-12-07T04:39:00.000+00:002008-12-07T04:39:00.000+00:00Dear Steve,You seem to be saying "no" to things I ...Dear Steve,<BR/><BR/>You seem to be saying "no" to things I didn't say. But infra's do hold that God purposed the fall as a means of glorification. For example, Turretin states God decreed the fall to communicate his power, wisdom and goodness, and later in the logical order He decrees election/reprobation to communicate His justice/mercy. (Turretin, IoET, V1 p 347)<BR/><BR/><BR/>God be with Godismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-79107737088064984692008-12-06T21:33:00.000+00:002008-12-06T21:33:00.000+00:00It strikes me to say first off that I have not rea...It strikes me to say first off that I have not read a better, simply put, very succinct flyover of Calvinism distinguished historically, TF.<BR/><BR/>You should do this more often? Oh, I digress to selfish thinking again!<BR/><BR/>It also strikes me that History seems to be the nut needing to be cracked when one is developing nomenclatures.<BR/><BR/>I go back to the beginning and to the end, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-73973353820794543012008-12-06T18:17:00.000+00:002008-12-06T18:17:00.000+00:00PR: Thanks for your comment. I would agree that ...PR: Thanks for your comment. I would agree that the temporal order is the primary emphasis of the comment, "Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin."<BR/><Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-87987691275489323792008-12-06T17:03:00.000+00:002008-12-06T17:03:00.000+00:00Godismyjudge:the supra/infra debate is concerned w...Godismyjudge:<BR/><BR/>the supra/infra debate is concerned with the <B>logical</B> order of God's decree rather than the teporal outworking of that order. I thus do not see Dordt taking a infra position, since the description seems to be one of what God does in time rather than the purpose why God does any one action.Daniel Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00678184721218949112noreply@blogger.com