tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post6054410643535450631..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Gems of Calvinism from the Early Church: IgnatiusTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-5631950832571198052008-03-03T13:18:00.000+00:002008-03-03T13:18:00.000+00:00Thanks for the clarifications, Matt.I think you've...Thanks for the clarifications, Matt.<BR/><BR/>I think you've come close to providing a fairly good explanation for how Sola Scriptura works.<BR/><BR/>1. There are clear things in Scripture, that everyone has to accept. If they do not, they cannot be treated as Christian brethren.<BR/><BR/>2. There are less clear things, about which we can be personally convinced, but over which we ought not to Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-24678401340493886532008-03-02T15:13:00.000+00:002008-03-02T15:13:00.000+00:00It seems that there are only three points where di...It seems that there are only three points where disagreement/confusion remains:<BR/><BR/>1) whether Thomism ought to be dogmatized<BR/><BR/>2) whether I would reject the Molinists from fellowship in the Church if they were to be anathemitized (HIGHLY unlikely, if not impossible, by the way)<BR/><BR/>3) how I "know" that Thomism is true despite the fact that the Church hasn't defined the teaching<Gaetanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14722914942511761947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-4043954959781193112008-03-02T14:50:00.000+00:002008-03-02T14:50:00.000+00:00Matt,M wrote: "Fine. Orthodox means "right teachin...Matt,<BR/><BR/>M wrote: "Fine. Orthodox means "right teaching." So I think that my view is "orthodox" in that sense."<BR/><BR/>ok<BR/><BR/>M wrote: "My point is that I am not prepared to cast the Molinists out of the Church."<BR/><BR/>That's fine. I don't want to cast everyone out of the church that disagrees with me.<BR/><BR/>Query though: wouldn't you prefer that Rome would dogmatically defineTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-66594597924861562772008-03-02T14:38:00.000+00:002008-03-02T14:38:00.000+00:00Pontificator:P wrote: "Actually, not only does a "...Pontificator:<BR/><BR/>P wrote: "Actually, not only does a "lower" standard for orthodoxy, at least when compared, say, to confessional Calvinism, not give me ulcers but it encourages me."<BR/><BR/>1) It is not a lower standard "for" orthodoxy, but a lower standard "of" orthodoxy that should trouble you. In other words, the thing that should give you ulcers is the standard that says: "this is Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-32177426680231038112008-03-02T01:37:00.000+00:002008-03-02T01:37:00.000+00:00Actually, not only does a "lower" standard for ort...Actually, not only does a "lower" standard for orthodoxy, at least when compared, say, to confessional Calvinism, not give me ulcers but it encourages me. The Church sets the dogmatic boundaries but within those boundaries it permits reflection, discussion, and knock-down drag-out debate, all the while maintaining unity at the Table of the Lord. As Stanley Hauerwas has quipped, only CatholicismStriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07859685939890312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-78582375984997421412008-03-01T18:00:00.000+00:002008-03-01T18:00:00.000+00:00Fine. Orthodox means "right teaching." So I thin...Fine. Orthodox means "right teaching." So I think that my view is "orthodox" in that sense. My point is that I am not prepared to cast the Molinists out of the Church. I certainly don't think that they are going to hell. I don't think they should be prevented from teaching or from worshiping next to me. Basically, what I was saying is that Thomism is not heterodox/not heretical. Admittedly,Gaetanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14722914942511761947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-22368656654046844322008-03-01T17:41:00.000+00:002008-03-01T17:41:00.000+00:00There's one point that I should address separately...There's one point that I should address separately.<BR/><BR/>The standard of "orthodox" as being simply something that hasn't been explicitly condemned, is a pretty low standard. By that standard, something can be dead wrong, and still be "orthodox." Indeed, the majority you mention (Kimel, for example, comes to mind) seem to think that Thomism/Augustinianism is dead wrong.<BR/><BR/>In ReformedTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-7719434828565093322008-03-01T17:13:00.000+00:002008-03-01T17:13:00.000+00:00Matt,Good points. Calvin's doctrines were not dis...Matt,<BR/><BR/>Good points. Calvin's doctrines were not distinctively Calvinistic, in the sense of being the product of his own imagination. And Ignatius didn't invent it either: he got it from the same place that Calvin and Aquinas got it: the Scriptures.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-13666585711873917512008-03-01T16:31:00.000+00:002008-03-01T16:31:00.000+00:00Ignatius is not saying anything distinctively Calv...Ignatius is not saying anything distinctively Calvinistic here (unless I am mistaken). Thomas Aquinas would also say that God elected all those who would go to heaven in eternity, that the number of the elect is certain, that they would infallibly be saved.<BR/><BR/>God elected them not through any merits or foreseen faith. Their election is based only upon the incomprehensible will and desire Gaetanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14722914942511761947noreply@blogger.com