tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post6099327554439737543..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Because Painted Images Can't Do AnythingTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-23082156567899967102010-08-18T23:48:52.627+01:002010-08-18T23:48:52.627+01:00No, I don't, actually.No, I don't, actually.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-44594013728652615222010-08-18T22:31:04.915+01:002010-08-18T22:31:04.915+01:00I hope you'll admit that there is a difference...I hope you'll admit that there is a difference of sound of the words between:<br /><br />"the mechanism of God appearing through or by the means of the Ark and working His wonders from there"<br /><br />and<br /><br />"God appearing in the empty space above the ark and between the cherubim"<br /><br />Hopefully you also notice that in the latter instance there is no Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-8383356952838534752010-08-18T20:13:22.760+01:002010-08-18T20:13:22.760+01:00..the difference being?.. (you're simply descr.....the difference being?.. (you're simply describing what I said).The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-55458137082244528682010-08-18T19:55:06.388+01:002010-08-18T19:55:06.388+01:00yes, as opposed to God appearing in the empty spac...yes, as opposed to God appearing in the empty space above the ark and between the cherubim, as Scripture teaches.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-83006662513901328352010-08-18T19:15:33.515+01:002010-08-18T19:15:33.515+01:00You mean the mechanism of God appearing through or...You mean the mechanism of God appearing through or by the means of the Ark and working His wonders from there? :-)The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-60759926759313158622010-08-18T14:07:47.144+01:002010-08-18T14:07:47.144+01:00Again, you're confusing location and mechanism...Again, you're confusing location and mechanism.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-86241292290058592232010-08-18T13:31:14.824+01:002010-08-18T13:31:14.824+01:00The place above the Ark is dependent upon the Ark....The place above the Ark is dependent upon the Ark. <br /><br />The place between the two Cherubim is dependent upon the two Cherubim.<br /><br />So: "through" & "by".<br /><br />QED.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-58710520270213401252010-08-18T12:37:00.870+01:002010-08-18T12:37:00.870+01:00Actually, the specific location is clear:
Exodus ...Actually, the specific location is clear:<br /><br />Exodus 25:20-22 <br />And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give theeTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-40163110126883498922010-08-18T02:21:41.591+01:002010-08-18T02:21:41.591+01:00No, God did not use the ark as a tool to exercise ...<i>No, God did not use the ark as a tool to exercise his power through it.</i><br /><br /><br />According to the Exodus 25:22: <br /><br />Yes, God DID use the ark as a tool to exercise His presence through it (and since He is all-powerful, it follows that His power and might were also present with Him where-ever He appeared).<br /><br />So, putting two and two together: <br /><br />Yes, God did The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-61702254289595851082010-08-18T02:15:04.258+01:002010-08-18T02:15:04.258+01:00He manifested himself above the ark.
IOW, God...<i>He manifested himself above the ark.</i><br /><br /><br />IOW, God's position was the place where the Ark was located. -- He manifested Himself through or by it. <br /><br />Dagon "bowed" before the Ark, as Moses also did when God appeared: because He manifested Himself from between the Ark's Cherubim, and nothing and no-one could resist the power of His presence. -- [Of The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-80891280734884750862010-08-18T01:48:59.854+01:002010-08-18T01:48:59.854+01:00"God chose to use the Ark as a means of manif..."God chose to use the Ark as a means of manifesting Himself, His power, and His glory."<br /><br />Not really. God mostly chose to keep the Ark hidden. He manifested himself above the ark.<br /><br />"He worked His mighty deeds through the Ark, using it as a vehicle of manifesting His might."<br /><br />No, he did not. That's how it is shown in the Indiana Jones movie, Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-47200010099929834662010-08-18T01:30:22.459+01:002010-08-18T01:30:22.459+01:00God chose to use the Ark as a means of manifesting...God chose to use the Ark as a means of manifesting Himself, His power, and His glory. He worked His mighty deeds through the Ark, using it as a vehicle of manifesting His might. <br /><br />So: God does work through His holy images. -- that's the conclusion; and not that "images don't & can't do anything". <br /><br />It's just like saying that medical instruments The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-83427598486225219502010-08-18T01:10:40.913+01:002010-08-18T01:10:40.913+01:00That doesn't seem very logical, my friend. Yo...That doesn't seem very logical, my friend. You seem to be mixing up location and mechanism.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-5216357273808672612010-08-18T00:38:45.253+01:002010-08-18T00:38:45.253+01:00Since He appeared from between them, they were a v...Since He appeared from between them, they were a vehicle or medium for making Him present.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-55724388397224588572010-08-18T00:32:32.408+01:002010-08-18T00:32:32.408+01:00No. They stand in his presence. Their location i...No. They stand in his presence. Their location is determined by Him, not the other way 'round.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-50086662145682291042010-08-17T23:59:47.396+01:002010-08-17T23:59:47.396+01:00The space where He manifested His presence was det...The space where He manifested His presence was determined by the two golden Cherubim. :-)The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-71748837630345626812010-08-17T23:48:56.060+01:002010-08-17T23:48:56.060+01:00No. God appeared between the Cherubim, not throug...No. God appeared between the Cherubim, not through them or by their power.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-80685037647119951072010-08-17T23:37:14.337+01:002010-08-17T23:37:14.337+01:00So the Ark served as a medium or vehicle for makin...So the Ark served as a medium or vehicle for making God's power and glory present.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-70495669635265662672010-08-17T23:35:04.520+01:002010-08-17T23:35:04.520+01:00You are correct - in the empty space, between them...You are correct - in the empty space, between them.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-62095935014277936262010-08-17T23:33:32.511+01:002010-08-17T23:33:32.511+01:00And why not? Was this not precisely why God ordain...And why not? Was this not precisely why God ordained Moses to build it in the first place? So that He may manifest Himself from between the two golden Cherubim? (Exodus 25:22)The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-29990805258153213512010-08-17T23:29:01.541+01:002010-08-17T23:29:01.541+01:00"...but those things which were not done by t..."...but those things which were not done by the Ark, were done through the Ark... do you agree?"<br /><br />No. They were done near the Ark. You could even say they were done because of the Ark. But they were not done by or through the Ark.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-5320506595025033162010-08-17T21:54:11.324+01:002010-08-17T21:54:11.324+01:00Yet, it was not the ark that did those things.
....<i>Yet, it was not the ark that did those things.</i><br /><br /><br />...but those things which were not done by the Ark, were done through the Ark... do you agree?Luciannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-2111113563412663752010-08-17T16:36:43.743+01:002010-08-17T16:36:43.743+01:00"God is everywhere present and He fills all t..."God is everywhere present and He fills all things: but these things did not happen there until the Ark was there."<br /><br />Yet, it was not the ark that did those things.<br /><br />"So: care to re-think, or re-phrase you whole approach and attitude to icons?"<br /><br />The Ark of the New Covenant is Christ, not icons. <br /><br />Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-51481703584496263692010-08-17T04:21:34.618+01:002010-08-17T04:21:34.618+01:00...because the Ark passed through there. :-) -- it......because the Ark passed through there. :-) -- it did NOT happen on other times or in other occasions.<br /><br />God is everywhere present and He fills all things: but these things did not happen there until the Ark was there. <br /><br />So: care to re-think, or re-phrase you whole approach and attitude to icons?Luciannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-55152340799622188632010-08-17T02:28:14.490+01:002010-08-17T02:28:14.490+01:00Yes, as I said, the uncircumcised Philistines thou...Yes, as I said, the uncircumcised Philistines thought the Ark of the Lord was responsible. Foolish idolaters they!<br /><br />As for who did it:<br /><br />1 Samuel 5:6 But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof. <br /><br />- TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.com