tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post6139831161782139868..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Augustine on the Presence of ChristTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-28460463225503354862011-02-15T16:18:09.420+00:002011-02-15T16:18:09.420+00:00Paul Hoffer wrote, "In regards to your commen...Paul Hoffer wrote, "In regards to your comment, I think you need to think about what substance means metaphysically as opposed to what it means when we talk about the word in the context of physical sciences."<br /><br />Hi Paul! I am confused by the way Roman Catholics talk about 'substance,' because their vocabulary is drawn from the pagan philosopher Aristotle, but then they Frederickahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071420764901945035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-57784559031660286932011-02-15T14:48:22.038+00:002011-02-15T14:48:22.038+00:00Mr. Fan, I will try to respond to your last comme...Mr. Fan, I will try to respond to your last comment in the next day or so when I can find the time to go through and show you how the two are distinguished.<br /><br />God bless!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-71212102190943020332011-02-14T20:23:48.413+00:002011-02-14T20:23:48.413+00:00Mr. Hoffer:
None of the quotations you provided d...Mr. Hoffer:<br /><br />None of the quotations you provided distinguished between "corporal presence" and "carnal presence," that I recall.<br /><br />More importantly, they all (except the Scripture passage) affirm a bodily presence - something Augustine explicitly denies (because of the Scripture passage).<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-20400569476720605632011-02-14T18:44:11.088+00:002011-02-14T18:44:11.088+00:00Hello TF, I think we are suffering from a lack of...Hello TF, I think we are suffering from a lack of concord on definitions. From the Catholic perspective, there is a difference between carnally present and corporally present. The former makes Christ subject to being divided into little pieces which we deny. As I said before, we do not eat Jesus burgers. The latter allows Our Lord to be substantially present in a sacramental way in the Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-65384309918431663102011-02-14T17:10:29.982+00:002011-02-14T17:10:29.982+00:00Paul Hoffer wrote, "Me: Catholics do not beli...Paul Hoffer wrote, "Me: Catholics do not believe that in a carnal presence of Jesus in the Eucharist."<br /><br />Hi Paul. Would it be fair to summarize your argument as follows:<br /><br />1.) There are certain things we know of a certainty about physical substances including: 'the part cannot be greater than the whole.' This is an iron-clad rule. If you roll by me with a big Frederickahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071420764901945035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-56252813537030521572011-02-14T14:31:19.721+00:002011-02-14T14:31:19.721+00:00Mr. Hoffer:
#1 on your list doesn't represent...Mr. Hoffer:<br /><br />#1 on your list doesn't represent the modern Roman doctrine on the subject.<br /><br />##2-5 do, but not one of them denies a carnal presence. In fact, they repeatedly use expressions that affirm a carnal presence, particularly references to the "whole Christ" in Aquinas and Trent.<br /><br />Paul VI even explicitly affirms that Christ is "corporally Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-46988379289835862882011-02-14T07:08:59.249+00:002011-02-14T07:08:59.249+00:00(cont.)
I have provided you some citations that a...(cont.)<br /><br />I have provided you some citations that are as authoritative as they come that show that the Catholic Church does not hold to a carnal presence. Truly, really, substantial, and even a physical presence-yes, but such presence is a sacramental one, not a carnal one as those who lived in Capernaum. <br /><br />I would be interested to see your official Catholic sources that Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-69403351973845527762011-02-14T06:51:37.565+00:002011-02-14T06:51:37.565+00:00(cont.)
5. Pope Paul VI (again) from his Apostoli...(cont.)<br /><br />5. Pope Paul VI (again) from his Apostolic Letter, Creed of the People of God (June 30, 1968):<br /><br />24. We believe that the Mass, celebrated by the priest representing the person of Christ by virtue of the power received through the Sacrament of Orders, and offered by him in the name of Christ and the members of His Mystical Body, is the sacrifice of Calvary rendered Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-42790815284250633352011-02-14T06:50:39.092+00:002011-02-14T06:50:39.092+00:00(cont.)
Reply to Objection 1. Number follows divi...(cont.)<br /><br />Reply to Objection 1. Number follows division, and therefore so long as quantity remains actually undivided, neither is the substance of any thing several times under its proper dimensions, nor is Christ's body several times under the dimensions of the bread; and consequently not an infinite number of times, but just as many times as it is divided into parts. <br /><br />Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-45618921378415466982011-02-14T06:49:56.968+00:002011-02-14T06:49:56.968+00:00(cont.)
Article 3. Whether Christ is entire under...(cont.)<br /><br />Article 3. Whether Christ is entire under every part of the species of the bread and wine?<br /><br />Objection 1. It seems that Christ is not entire under every part of the species of bread and wine. Because those species can be divided infinitely. If therefore Christ be entirely under every part of the said species, it would follow that He is in this sacrament an infinite Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-82978585662684781022011-02-14T06:48:12.690+00:002011-02-14T06:48:12.690+00:00(cont.)
Reply to Objection 1. Although the whole ...(cont.)<br /><br />Reply to Objection 1. Although the whole Christ is under each species, yet it is so not without purpose. For in the first place this serves to represent Christ's Passion, in which the blood was separated from the body; hence in the form for the consecration of the blood mention is made of its shedding. Secondly, it is in keeping with the use of this sacrament, that Christ&#Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-42120475886989861132011-02-14T06:47:33.349+00:002011-02-14T06:47:33.349+00:00(cont.)
Article 2. Whether the whole Christ is co...(cont.)<br /><br />Article 2. Whether the whole Christ is contained under each species of this sacrament?<br /><br />Objection 1. It seems that the whole Christ is not contained under both species of this sacrament. For this sacrament is ordained for the salvation of the faithful, not by virtue of the species, but by virtue of what is contained under the species, because the species were there Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-73650254759470194222011-02-14T06:45:52.330+00:002011-02-14T06:45:52.330+00:00(cont)
Reply to Objection 1. Because the
change ...(cont)<br /><br />Reply to Objection 1. Because the <br />change of the bread and wine is not terminated at the Godhead or the soul of Christ, it follows as a consequence that the Godhead or the soul of Christ is in this sacrament not by the power of the sacrament, but from real concomitance. For since the Godhead never set aside the assumed body, wherever the body of Christ is, there, of Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-48788670445756686012011-02-14T06:44:08.034+00:002011-02-14T06:44:08.034+00:00cont.
4. Pope Paul VI from his encyclical Myster...cont.<br /><br />4. Pope Paul VI from his encyclical Mysterium Fidei:<br /><br />As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new signification and a new finality, for they are no longer ordinary bread and wine but instead a sign of something sacred and a sign of spiritual food; but they take on this new signification, this new finality, precisely Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-16670995612438904102011-02-14T06:40:35.875+00:002011-02-14T06:40:35.875+00:00Hello TF, you asked if I could cite to some docume...Hello TF, you asked if I could cite to some documentation where the Catholic Church denies that the Real Presence is a carnal presence. <br /><br />Here are a few:<br /><br />1. John 6:63-It does not get any more official than that.<br /><br />If you want some others here you are:<br /><br />2. From Council of Trent, Decree on the Most Holy Eucharist, Chapter 1:<br /><br />“In the first place, Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-71695438056119079982011-02-14T03:09:41.992+00:002011-02-14T03:09:41.992+00:00Mr. Hoffer:
You wrote: "Hello Mr. Fan, The q...Mr. Hoffer:<br /><br />You wrote: "Hello Mr. Fan, The quotations you are referencing show that Augustine denies a carnal presence just as the Catholic Church does today."<br /><br />Please show me any official document from your church denying the carnal presence of Christ. I'm happy to show you where your church affirms it, but I think it would be better for you to instruct me, Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-15243415074320420402011-02-14T02:38:49.314+00:002011-02-14T02:38:49.314+00:00Hello Mr. Fan, The quotations you are referencing ...Hello Mr. Fan, The quotations you are referencing show that Augustine denies a carnal presence just as the Catholic Church does today. You will find nothing in present day Catholic doctrine that suggests that we believe we are eating "Jesus burgers."<br /><br />More to the point, transubstantiation does not mean, nor has it ever meant, that the change caused to confected bread and wine Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72841431220529233972011-02-14T02:32:21.355+00:002011-02-14T02:32:21.355+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-82410257195436515932011-02-13T21:53:58.025+00:002011-02-13T21:53:58.025+00:00Mr. Hoffer,
Augustine's denial of Christ'...Mr. Hoffer,<br /><br />Augustine's denial of Christ's continued bodily presence is a denial of what modern Rome teaches. That's just one example.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72456120467498888622011-02-13T16:25:26.434+00:002011-02-13T16:25:26.434+00:00Mr. King, I did back my assertion with citations w...Mr. King, I did back my assertion with citations which generally is what an argument consists of-an assertion with support or corroboration. I could expand upon it if I had the time to do so (which I will when classes are done). As for anachronism, it shall be an interesting discussion to see how far afield or anachronistic Augustine's position actually is from the present-day teaching of Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-82565690531307983922011-02-13T13:45:45.978+00:002011-02-13T13:45:45.978+00:00Herb wrote, "The notion that he was reacting ...Herb wrote, "The notion that he was reacting against Geocentrism or a host of Medieval "innovations" isn't to be found there."<br /><br />Hi Herb! I don't think Martin Luther was reacting against geocentrism because he was a geocentrist himself! He responded to Copernicus by saying, "the fool will upset the whole science of astronomy," but I do think it was aFrederickahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071420764901945035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-51373221038472891402011-02-13T13:20:12.890+00:002011-02-13T13:20:12.890+00:00Fredericka, TurretinFan, Pete, Constantine and oth...Fredericka, TurretinFan, Pete, Constantine and others who've been so good to me: In order to save some cash, my wife and I have lately been considering ditching the internet at home. We were just discussing the issue and have decided to go ahead with it. So at this point I think I'm going to bow out for good. Fredericka, if you'd like to follow up with me EVER, I will still have herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14799404765752354373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-67977644003696996642011-02-13T13:01:27.577+00:002011-02-13T13:01:27.577+00:00Thus, my non-magisterial opinion would be less ana...<i>Thus, my non-magisterial opinion would be less anachronistic than you suggest. Moreover, I would argue that his views on the Eucharist are far more in line with what :modern day Rome” teaches as opposed to whatever you misapprehend them to be.</i><br /><br />Yes, the single citation approach, which you decried, is now your standard for your non-magisterial opinion - your double-standard is dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-57897030210098906622011-02-13T12:40:54.876+00:002011-02-13T12:40:54.876+00:00(continued from above)
"The Catholic church i...(continued from above)<br />"The Catholic church innovated like crazy in the Middle Ages, unfortunately it was all bad stuff like geocentrism."<br /><br />The conditions have to be right in order for something to flourish, to experience a period of tremendous growth and development. As society changed, so did the Church. In a way, humankind was being extracted from its past, and thus herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14799404765752354373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-89890031234211469132011-02-13T12:40:39.666+00:002011-02-13T12:40:39.666+00:00Fredericka-
I've read Luther's 95 Theses a...Fredericka-<br />I've read Luther's 95 Theses a number of times. The notion that he was reacting against Geocentrism or a host of Medieval "innovations" isn't to be found there. The 95 Theses were in many ways spot on. Many of them, as you know, did the good work of helping to reform the Church.<br /><br />But stand back to survey the scene for a second here: Review some of herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14799404765752354373noreply@blogger.com