tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post6635671332216719575..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: John Calvin vs. Cardinal SadoletoTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-49551108045466327662012-05-02T19:39:58.179+01:002012-05-02T19:39:58.179+01:00Hi Chris,
I'm not expecting Calvin to have a...Hi Chris, <br /><br />I'm not expecting Calvin to have a "full fledged doctrine" of imputation in place, but the essentials should be there. Otherwise, what's the point of Scripture "clearly" showing the more accurate way contrary to Rome? <br /><br />To say those doctrines (e.g. Active Obedience, Covenant of Works) don't have to be found in Calvin is to trivializeNickhttp://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/10/justification-by-faith-alone-debate.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-61645440489335129202012-05-02T06:33:01.419+01:002012-05-02T06:33:01.419+01:00Hi Nick,
First, it is incredibly anachronistic to...Hi Nick,<br /><br />First, it is incredibly anachronistic to expect to find in Calvin (or Luther) a full fledged doctrine of the imputation of the active obedience of Christ. None will deny that many aspects of Reformed theology that were developed and clarified from Calvin's (and the other 1st and 2nd generation Reformers, men like Vermigli, Bucer, Bullinger, etc. , who were just as Chris Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-58160974568188443402012-05-01T23:42:50.827+01:002012-05-01T23:42:50.827+01:00Hello James,
After reading those quotes you gave...Hello James, <br /><br />After reading those quotes you gave, I would say that on the surface they could be speaking of Active Obedience, but they are not detailed/systematic enough for me to be convinced either way. For example, fulfilling the law can be taken to mean living a sinless life in order to be a worthy sacrifice. Also, the "Covenant of Works" framework by which Active Nickhttp://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/10/justification-by-faith-alone-debate.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-62119738815957811122012-05-01T19:44:18.682+01:002012-05-01T19:44:18.682+01:00And also:
"Therefore Christ is not a lawgive...And also:<br /><br />"Therefore Christ is not a lawgiver. Nonetheless he shows the work of the law. At the same time he indicates what he himself would do so that this work of the law, which is required of all, is fulfilled, namely, that he would obtain it by doing God's will and by satisfying his law... Therefore, this righteousness, which the law requires, is not attained by means of Tertiumquidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-21635340106405988622012-05-01T19:12:59.886+01:002012-05-01T19:12:59.886+01:00and also:
77. There can be no doubt at all, since...and also:<br /><br />77. There can be no doubt at all, since all others have not done the will of God and did not have his law within their hearts.<br />78. Moreover, that will of God which Christ fulfils can be nothing else than the very obedience of Christ, as Paul says, “He became obedient for us” [I Cor. 1:30; Phil. 2:8].<br />79. By that will we have all been sanctified, as he says [Heb. 10:Tertiumquidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-8995480774090264442012-05-01T03:15:57.329+01:002012-05-01T03:15:57.329+01:00Oh Nick, please! There you go again. John Calvin, ...Oh Nick, please! There you go again. John Calvin, in this little bit provided by TF clearly stands up for Christ so that the believer has his focus squarely where Christ's focus is, on one's eternal salvation secured for them by Christ's work, an eternal salvation that in essence means and results in the true believer's holy communion with God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). <br />Natamllcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-76908480973660270002012-05-01T01:56:53.612+01:002012-05-01T01:56:53.612+01:00Hi Chris,
I just posted an article on this very ...Hi Chris, <br /><br />I <a href="http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2012/04/did-john-calvin-preach-false-gospel.html" rel="nofollow">just posted an article on this very subject</a>, which includes links to other articles I've written. If you step back and read what Calvin really said (including the quotes you gave), as I show, you will see Active Obedience was not something he taught. Calvin Nickhttp://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/10/justification-by-faith-alone-debate.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-37541240782394778162012-05-01T00:25:08.120+01:002012-05-01T00:25:08.120+01:00Nick:
I'm not sure how you are able to interp...Nick:<br /><br />I'm not sure how you are able to interpret that sentence to imply Calvin "never taught" that doctrine. It's certainly not incompatible with it, and since Calvin's works extended far, far, beyond this letter it's a pretty astounding conclusion you've drawn. <br /><br />Here are some more quotes that do speak more directly to the subject:<br /><br />Chris Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-7101159277001172502012-04-30T23:44:19.683+01:002012-04-30T23:44:19.683+01:00Just to let you know, the link to the whole articl...Just to let you know, the link to the whole article at the end is not working. <br /><br />As far as the justification section you quoted, here is a real gem I'm going to keep:<br /><br />"we hold that Christ is their only righteousness, since, by his obedience, he has wiped off our transgressions"<br /><br />In other words, Active Obedience was never on Calvin's radar; he neverNickhttp://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/10/justification-by-faith-alone-debate.htmlnoreply@blogger.com