tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post7230025810436692771..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Unloading 35 Loaded Questions for "Bible Christians" 31/35Turretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-87156298280297455092010-02-13T19:38:26.691+00:002010-02-13T19:38:26.691+00:00"Understood, but some apologetic arguments co..."Understood, but some apologetic arguments come pretty close to saying that."<br /><br />Some come right out and say that: "The church gave you the Scriptures" or something like that.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-12104410282650378312010-02-12T17:16:26.152+00:002010-02-12T17:16:26.152+00:00"What if the subordinate standards are wrong?..."What if the subordinate standards are wrong?"<br /><br />If they are wrong, then they should be amended to be correct.<br /><br />"And, what if that man went accross the street and started a new Reformed Church, just one that adopted a different 'subordinate standard' which had a canon which did not include Hebrews or Revelation. What that be A-OK to you?"<br /><br />Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-30504413294319109262010-02-12T16:55:16.298+00:002010-02-12T16:55:16.298+00:00The subordinate standards of the PCA would be grou...<i>The subordinate standards of the PCA would be grounds for refusal of ordination of such men as you've described</i><br /><br />What if the subordinate standards are wrong?<br /><br />And, what if that man went accross the street and started a new Reformed Church, just one that adopted a different 'subordinate standard' which had a canon which did not include Hebrews or Revelation.<Blogahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08390152245638471831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-52804379956440414782010-02-12T16:35:23.542+00:002010-02-12T16:35:23.542+00:00The subordinate standards of the PCA would be grou...The subordinate standards of the PCA would be grounds for refusal of ordination of such men as you've described.<br /><br />You wrote: "Well, for one thing it depends on what you mean by 'some sense.'"<br /><br />Well, since you are the one who thinks that additional explanation is required, since you phrase the issue in terms of "certainty," and since you Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-66544835232803268152010-02-12T16:13:41.500+00:002010-02-12T16:13:41.500+00:00Will you grant that certainty (in some sense) is c...<i>Will you grant that certainty (in some sense) is compatible with fallibility?</i><br /><br />In some sense, sure. <br /><br /><i>If so, what's the problem? Why is further explanation required?</i><br /><br />Well, for one thing it depends on what you mean by 'some sense.' <br /><br />In terms of the canon of scripture having a fallible list of infallible books is indeed Blogahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08390152245638471831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-26994936588104025442010-02-12T15:45:13.392+00:002010-02-12T15:45:13.392+00:00Blogahon:
There are two comments from me, right a...Blogahon:<br /><br />There are two comments from me, right above your last two comments. Those comments include some direct questions to you.<br /><br />Please make sure that your next comments to this blog are answers to those questions.<br /><br />You wrote: "But, as you say, "Humans are fallible." Yes, they are. But all you do is admit that the self authenticating quality of Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-65367619000276855902010-02-12T15:28:55.707+00:002010-02-12T15:28:55.707+00:00The Catholic position, on the other hand, is that ...The Catholic position, on the other hand, is that Scripture has divine authority because it is God-breathed, the Holy Spirit having inspired the texts’ authors.<br /><br />The First Vatican Council says: <i>These 73 books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because Blogahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08390152245638471831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-77966141013309285932010-02-12T15:28:03.556+00:002010-02-12T15:28:03.556+00:00TFan.
If you were a PCA minister and a new member...TFan.<br /><br />If you were a PCA minister and a new member came to join your church and perhaps eventually be a teaching elder but this PCA elder candidate was convinced that Hebrews and Revelation were not inspired scripture what would happen? <br /><br />Could he be a teaching elder in the PCA? If not, on what basis would the presbytery exclude him?<br /><br />Or what if the church down theBlogahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08390152245638471831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-68990897157092993102010-02-12T15:01:09.134+00:002010-02-12T15:01:09.134+00:00"It is the most exhaustive treatment of this ..."It is the most exhaustive treatment of this subject that I've seen in quite a while and I believe that you would agree that it at least fairly describes all of the Reformed answers to the canon questions."<br /><br />What was the most exhaustive treatment you saw on this topic before that post? My perspective on the post seems to be exactly the opposite of yours.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-60366004928935253502010-02-12T14:57:18.546+00:002010-02-12T14:57:18.546+00:00"If humans are fallible than how are you cert..."If humans are fallible than how are you certain that your 66 book canon is correct?"<br /><br />Will you grant that certainty (in some sense) is compatible with fallibility?<br /><br />If so, what's the problem? Why is further explanation required?<br /><br />If not, how can you (being human) be certain about anything? In which case, why is lack of certainty a problem?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-59961797985153925972010-02-12T14:50:35.974+00:002010-02-12T14:50:35.974+00:00TFan.
If humans are fallible than how are you cer...TFan.<br /><br />If humans are fallible than how are you certain that your 66 book canon is correct?<br /><br />Did you notice the recent article on Called to Communion that examined these issues? It is <a href="http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/01/the-canon-question/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />It is the most exhaustive treatment of this subject that I've seen in quite a while Blogahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08390152245638471831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-17432419809909099332010-02-12T14:34:28.475+00:002010-02-12T14:34:28.475+00:00"I think his comment is basically aimed at ge..."I think his comment is basically aimed at getting ya'll to explain how it is that different Christians have different canons."<br /><br />We've explained it many times, and it's not a complicated explanation. Humans are fallible.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-1029559875841416382010-02-12T14:21:33.489+00:002010-02-12T14:21:33.489+00:00TFan.
I think his comment is basically aimed at g...TFan.<br /><br />I think his comment is basically aimed at getting ya'll to explain how it is that different Christians have different canons.Blogahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08390152245638471831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-16894289011725933222010-02-11T22:08:19.646+00:002010-02-11T22:08:19.646+00:00I wrote: “One doesn't need a "defined&quo...I wrote: “One doesn't need a "defined" canon to read the Bible.”<br /><br />JM replied: "Meaning one doesn’t need the bible to read the bible."<br /><br />No, that's not even close to what it means.<br /><br />"Only assumes the authenticity of Peters letter and his authority to recognised a text as scripture. Neither of these are found in any text alone."<br Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-56646959733467386922010-02-11T18:18:00.485+00:002010-02-11T18:18:00.485+00:00"I think John Martin and I find it odd to arg..."I think John Martin and I find it odd to argue for Pauline canonicity by assuming Petrine canonicity. "<br /><br />I wonder why?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-64062543260107991072010-02-11T18:15:55.900+00:002010-02-11T18:15:55.900+00:00"(if you bracket the question of Petrine insp..."(if you bracket the question of Petrine inspiration) how do you know Peter was right?"<br /><br />Among the evidences that Peter was right:<br /><br />1) Peter's healing of the man born lame at the Beautiful Gate of the temple. (see Acts 3)<br /><br />2) Peter's supernatural execution of Ananias and Saphira. (see Acts 5)<br /><br />3) Peter's healing of Aneas' palsy. (Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-24530389816566949742010-02-11T17:38:36.560+00:002010-02-11T17:38:36.560+00:00"Yes, but (if you bracket the question of Pet..."Yes, but (if you bracket the question of Petrine inspiration) how do you know Peter was right? Aren't we back to the problem of a fallible canon of infallible Scripture?"<br /><br />Steve beat me to it. <br /><br />We are back to a question I posed to you previously: How do YOU know Peter was right? We either have a fallible canon of infallible scripture, or a fallible louishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447894010657835114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-73342741104581603792010-02-11T17:29:31.005+00:002010-02-11T17:29:31.005+00:00Alphonsus said...
"Aren't we back to the...Alphonsus said...<br /><br />"Aren't we back to the problem of a fallible canon of infallible Scripture?"<br /><br />If that's a problem, then what about the problem of a fallible list of true popes? Or a fallible list of ecumenical councils? Or a fallible list of ex cathedra pronouncements?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-78245010839864605132010-02-11T17:26:55.319+00:002010-02-11T17:26:55.319+00:00BTW, what about the authorial self-attributions in...BTW, what about the authorial self-attributions in papal documents, like the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of Mary?<br /><br />Are Catholics at liberty to deny that Pius IX and Pius XII authored these documents? Isn't the authorship of said documents a precondition for the authority to formally define the dogmas contained therein?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-29789455484715959852010-02-11T17:23:36.499+00:002010-02-11T17:23:36.499+00:00Alphonsus said...
"They aren't allowed t...Alphonsus said...<br /><br />"They aren't allowed to deny that the Petrine epistles are inspired."<br /><br />So if the inspired author of 1-2 Peter claims, under divine inspiration, to be the Petrine author, then Catholic scholars are allowed to deny the inspired attribution so long as they don't deny the inspiration of the writer who penned that inspired attribution. <br /><brstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-11366827665389078522010-02-11T17:17:49.546+00:002010-02-11T17:17:49.546+00:00"I believe Peter was cited as a representativ..."I believe Peter was cited as a representative of the early church, not for the canonicity of his letter."<br /><br />Yes, but (if you bracket the question of Petrine inspiration) how do you know Peter was right? Aren't we back to the problem of a fallible canon of infallible Scripture?Alphonsusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-63391903076536911922010-02-11T16:41:14.922+00:002010-02-11T16:41:14.922+00:00I believe Peter was cited as a representative of t...I believe Peter was cited as a representative of the early church, not for the canonicity of his letter. The same point could have been made with any other (non-canonical) early writer who recognized the gospels as the word of God.louishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447894010657835114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-3704377699863634222010-02-11T16:01:33.423+00:002010-02-11T16:01:33.423+00:00"Since modern Catholic Bible scholars are all..."Since modern Catholic Bible scholars are allowed to deny the traditional authorship of various canonical books, then Mother Church is no alternative."<br /><br />They aren't allowed to deny that the Petrine epistles are inspired.<br /><br />I think John Martin and I find it odd to argue for Pauline canonicity by assuming Petrine canonicity.Alphonsusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-62212257523749566242010-02-11T15:10:32.949+00:002010-02-11T15:10:32.949+00:00"Only assumes the authenticity of Peters lett..."Only assumes the authenticity of Peters letter and his authority to recognised a text as scripture. Neither of these are found in any text alone."<br /><br />Since modern Catholic Bible scholars are allowed to deny the traditional authorship of various canonical books, then Mother Church is no alternative.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-56984566826535427402010-02-11T07:08:41.897+00:002010-02-11T07:08:41.897+00:00“One doesn't need a "defined" canon ...“One doesn't need a "defined" canon to read the Bible.”<br /><br />Meaning one doesn’t need the bible to read the bible.<br /><br /><br />”1) Obviously, one needs some idea of which books are the Bible, and the early church did have an understanding of that, from the very days that the Scriptures were being penned. For example, Peter referred to Paul's epistles as "john martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06660610295915450085noreply@blogger.com