tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post7706972765332341636..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Why Don't We Read Form Prayers?Turretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-12759598654512747762007-11-20T06:38:00.000+00:002007-11-20T06:38:00.000+00:00O: I appreciate that houtos has a range of meaning...O: I appreciate that houtos has a range of meaning, and I think you make a good point there.<BR/><BR/>Psalms are for singing, though it is certainly interesting that many do refer to prayer.<BR/><BR/>Your "being heard for much speaking" argument seems somewhat conflicted against itself.<BR/><BR/>*********<BR/><BR/>As for the issue of vocative declension, yes, exactly. It mentions the Lord, but Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-58852686066064109272007-11-08T14:31:00.000+00:002007-11-08T14:31:00.000+00:00Try to not read between the lines, and you will un...Try to not read between the lines, and you will understand the point.<BR/><BR/>The point is that whether or not a given practice is vain or legalistic, depends not only on the heart of the person doing the practice, but also on how the institutional doctrines, institutional leadership, and immediate mentors of the person present the practice, as well as whether the practice can even be presented TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88061387227368768892007-11-08T04:49:00.000+00:002007-11-08T04:49:00.000+00:00"The difference in this is whether your participat..."The difference in this is whether your participation (even obedience) is in the external motions borne out of a fear of man, or flowing from the internal borne out of a fear and love of God."<BR/><BR/>All sides can do things for the wrong reasons. All sides can just go through the motions with no change of heart. The point is?orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72268643597584353362007-10-31T15:15:00.000+00:002007-10-31T15:15:00.000+00:00"When a leader tells me to do something I absolute..."When a leader tells me to do something I absolutely do not want to do, I turn it around and think great, what a wonderful opportunity to work on my humility and do it anyway."<BR/><BR/>Good for you. But you missed my point.<BR/><BR/>"All churches have their things you "have" to do. At a minimum it is coming regularly, standing when you are meant to stand, sitting when you are meant to sit, TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-76998187643727254262007-10-31T03:42:00.000+00:002007-10-31T03:42:00.000+00:00A simple "no" would have answered the question eve...A simple "no" would have answered the question even better.<BR/><BR/>Roman Catholic penance is non-analogous toward the spiritual discipline of the "Orthodox."<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-3677665355461103152007-10-31T03:36:00.000+00:002007-10-31T03:36:00.000+00:00Penance properly is a synonym for repentance and r...Penance properly is a synonym for repentance and refers to the whole confession process.<BR/><BR/>What you want to know is whether the priest will recommend some course of action during the process of penance.<BR/><BR/>The priest may recommend some course of action with a therapeutic intent. The priest may modify the prayer life of the penitent if needed to combat the sins that the penitent orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-47972066208361399742007-10-31T00:00:00.000+00:002007-10-31T00:00:00.000+00:00Interesting claim.Does your sect of Orthodoxy Anti...Interesting claim.<BR/><BR/>Does your sect of Orthodoxy Antichian Russian, or whatever, (and I recognize that you officially do not consider each other sects) impose penance as part of the confession process?<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-37208358672820988952007-10-30T23:49:00.000+00:002007-10-30T23:49:00.000+00:00"Not only was did I want to get done so I could go..."Not only was did I want to get done so I could go home, but the simple fact that it was penance changed it from an adoring lingering meditation to jail time (something inherently to be minimized)."<BR/><BR/>When a leader tells me to do something I absolutely do not want to do, I turn it around and think great, what a wonderful opportunity to work on my humility and do it anyway.<BR/><BR/>All orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-23557290566758243572007-10-30T21:59:00.000+00:002007-10-30T21:59:00.000+00:00TF,I agree with you that the rosary (as well as st...TF,<BR/><BR/>I agree with you that the rosary (as well as stations of the cross, etc) does wind up being mindless repetition (at least with such frequency and common experience that it speaks against the practice as something to be generally embraced or encouraged).... and I say this from personal experience. Additionally, there is more damage done when such prayers are assigned as duties-- TheoJunkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445444858090314944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-47005085210140759702007-10-30T20:49:00.000+00:002007-10-30T20:49:00.000+00:00Apparently God is happy with such repetition:Rev. ...<I><BR/>Apparently God is happy with such repetition:<BR/><BR/>Rev. 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and inside. Day and night without ceasing they sing,<BR/>“Holy, holy, holy,<BR/>the Lord God the Almighty,<BR/>who was and is and is to come.” </I><BR/><BR/>Really, and how does these living creatures' praying translate into human beings "GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-50705755039988661122007-10-30T06:02:00.000+00:002007-10-30T06:02:00.000+00:00What, because Lord isn't vocative? It would only b...What, because Lord isn't vocative? It would only be vocative if Lord is part of the address, rather than part of the statement.<BR/><BR/>"Even if the song were to God, why would you assume that it were a sung prayer instead of just a hymn?"<BR/><BR/>What's the difference? Too much naval gazing going on here.<BR/><BR/>"For that matter, why translate: "and they rest not day and night" as a modifierorthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72203246303606974032007-10-30T03:22:00.000+00:002007-10-30T03:22:00.000+00:00You need to brush up on your Greek, compare to Rev...You need to brush up on your Greek, compare to Revelation 11:17, the creatures are singing <B>about</B> God, not to God.<BR/><BR/>Even if the song were to God, why would you assume that it were a sung prayer instead of just a hymn?<BR/><BR/>For that matter, why translate: "and they rest not day and night" as a modifier of their song? In context, the song is much more reasonably viewed as Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-5099969899205025622007-10-30T02:17:00.000+00:002007-10-30T02:17:00.000+00:00"What on earth makes you think that the song of th..."What on earth makes you think that the song of the four living creatures is a prayer?"<BR/><BR/>A song addressed to God. A prayer in song.<BR/><BR/>"Sure - agreed - but praying a rote prayer does not equal spiritual discipline, and results in mindless repetition of the rote prayer, not real prayer."<BR/><BR/>Of course, you've decided a-priori what "real" prayer is. I suppose the song of the fourorthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-11272216128721126172007-10-30T01:52:00.000+00:002007-10-30T01:52:00.000+00:00"By engaging in the spiritual discipline, prayer b..."By engaging in the spiritual discipline, prayer becomes second nature."<BR/><BR/>Sure - agreed - but praying a rote prayer does not equal spiritual discipline, and results in mindless repetition of the rote prayer, not real prayer.<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-52119872160668586582007-10-30T01:51:00.000+00:002007-10-30T01:51:00.000+00:00Orthodox,What on earth makes you think that the so...Orthodox,<BR/><BR/>What on earth makes you think that the song of the four living creatures is a prayer?<BR/><BR/>-TurretinfanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88640699488338623052007-10-30T01:48:00.000+00:002007-10-30T01:48:00.000+00:00"would you mind telling me whether it is Orthodox ..."would you mind telling me whether it is Orthodox to pray Rosaries?"<BR/><BR/>The Rosary is a later western evolution of the Orthodox prayer rope, which is like a knotted bracelet.<BR/><BR/>Is the bracelet itself apostolic? Probably not, it is a tool to fulfill the apostolic command to "pray without ceasing".<BR/><BR/>Apparently God is happy with such repetition:<BR/><BR/>Rev. 4:8 And the four orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-51351622742299100032007-10-30T00:51:00.000+00:002007-10-30T00:51:00.000+00:00Orthodox,I got your post, and you make a good poin...Orthodox,<BR/><BR/>I got your post, and you make a good point that the word houtos has a range of meanings - some of which would be useful to those who would want to view the Pater Noster as a form prayer, rather than as a prayer form.<BR/><BR/>Before I decide whether to address your comment in detail, would you mind telling me whether it is Orthodox to pray Rosaries?<BR/><BR/>Is it apostolic?<BRTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-67377929927855272882007-10-30T00:17:00.000+00:002007-10-30T00:17:00.000+00:00If one of Luke or Matthew is more specific, it wou...If one of Luke or Matthew is more specific, it would have to be Luke.<BR/><BR/>But I don't see the argument that οὕτως means something less than "say this". <BR/><BR/>For example:<BR/>Matt. 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus (οὕτως) it is written by the prophet.<BR/><BR/>"thus it is written", doesn't mean that there is a template for prophets saying where Christ would beorthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-70697969780326472982007-10-29T23:02:00.000+00:002007-10-29T23:02:00.000+00:00The Southern Baptist missionary Lottie Moon had a ...The Southern Baptist missionary Lottie Moon had a sister who turned Roman Catholic. Their mother never treated her kindly afterward. There's an old quote out there from her, the gist of which goes like this;<BR/><BR/>I refuse to dignify anything that seeks to justify the counting of beads with the name "Religion."<BR/><BR/>Here here!GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.com