tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post8090526573825762494..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Anathema UpdateTurretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-92107263831591000822009-09-01T17:51:34.984+01:002009-09-01T17:51:34.984+01:00I really don't see why you think that anathema...I really don't see why you think that anathemas are apparently no more. Jimmy Akin's argument for that appears to be fatally flawed.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-34513933461636901592009-09-01T15:52:31.907+01:002009-09-01T15:52:31.907+01:00I think we have to realize that the time around th...I think we have to realize that the time around the Reformation was full of bad feelings and hatred on both sides. I think we can learn a lot from their mistakes. <br /><br />As it stands anathemas are apparently no more. Why should you worry about it then? ANd if it's something that keeps you from being friendly with fellow Christians wouldn't it be better to just leave the past in Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-29566519217913302372009-09-01T14:31:15.858+01:002009-09-01T14:31:15.858+01:00Mr. Zuck:
a) That this is the 1917 code we are di...Mr. Zuck:<br /><br />a) That this is the 1917 code we are discussing is apparent from the post above. Note the title of the English translation of said code.<br /><br />b) That this was superseded by the 1983 code has already been pointed out in the immediately previous post of this series (<a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2009/08/anathemas-have-been-done-away.html" rel="nofollow">link</Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-8458851484665260282009-09-01T12:54:42.951+01:002009-09-01T12:54:42.951+01:00Mr. Turretinfan,
Please note that you are analyzi...Mr. Turretinfan,<br /><br />Please note that you are analyzing the 1917 Code of Canon Law. This code was superceded by the code promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1983.<br /><br />You need a little humility and little more study before you can make statements about Roman Catholic Doctrine, Discipline, and Woorship.<br /><br />Bill ZuckBillZuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823453085685272294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-43199163189767236982009-09-01T12:43:56.634+01:002009-09-01T12:43:56.634+01:00Kelly:
Thanks for alerting me to your post. I...Kelly:<br /><br />Thanks for alerting me to your post. I'm struck, in particular, by your comment: "I feel that asking "Can you be saved without joining the Catholic Church" is sort like asking "Can you be saved and never read the Bible?" Sure, you can, but you're missing out on a lot."<br /><br />I really don't think that's what "anathema"Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-62611789341567605652009-09-01T02:26:47.237+01:002009-09-01T02:26:47.237+01:00I posted one more long response on our blog. Very...I posted one more long response on our blog. Very interesting discussion, thanks for coming by.Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120027058653022897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-90491663116635829082009-08-31T18:38:23.262+01:002009-08-31T18:38:23.262+01:00Doesn't that imply that the way to be saved ha...Doesn't that imply that the way to be saved has changed (i.e. expanded)? Before one had to remove the separation, now it is not necessary?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-36855895202158834452009-08-31T18:36:47.990+01:002009-08-31T18:36:47.990+01:00I think in this case yes- having to do with the &q...I think in this case yes- having to do with the "loosing and binding."Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-31275457796132330862009-08-31T18:34:23.441+01:002009-08-31T18:34:23.441+01:00I am aware of the distinction made between doctrin...I am aware of the distinction made between doctrinal/morals and discipline. That said: is whether heresy separates one from heaven a matter merely of discipline?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-87414312036786102822009-08-31T18:23:30.420+01:002009-08-31T18:23:30.420+01:00Oh I certainly agree it has a different tone and I...Oh I certainly agree it has a different tone and I also agree that the times around Trent were contentious on both sides!<br /><br />But I think you're missing Kelly's point which is disciplines certainly can and do change over time. Doctrines on faith and morals don't.Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-45804599439434476372009-08-31T18:12:16.745+01:002009-08-31T18:12:16.745+01:00"Separated brethren" sounds like the peo..."Separated brethren" sounds like the people are still going to heaven - "Anathema" has a different sound. The former is the more ecumenical and inclusive post-Vatican-II approach, whereas the latter is the more austere approach the preceded it. Or so it appears.<br /><br />Is it your position that either Trent didn't mean to condemn folks to hell by using the word "Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-91080163460080773222009-08-31T18:07:38.608+01:002009-08-31T18:07:38.608+01:00The result is that Vatican II calls us "separ...<i>The result is that Vatican II calls us "separated brethren" and Trent (and others) call us "anathema."</i><br /><br />If you are speaking of the anathemas in a general sense, I would say that the Trent and VII views are one and the same. <br /><br />You are out of communion, or separated. What would happen if the anathema were in place? You would not be able to receive Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120027058653022897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-13175171534811889432009-08-31T17:04:08.099+01:002009-08-31T17:04:08.099+01:00I think that's my point - he brings it up beca...I think that's my point - he brings it up because he thinks people are interested in the topic (even if it is a relatively obscure topic compared to the Eucharist).<br /><br />I've seen it come up time and time again, with many folks mistakenly (as far as we can see) relying on Mr. Akin's comments and thinking that somehow the anathemas of Trent and others should not be discussed.<br Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-4200983584204030062009-08-31T16:55:18.747+01:002009-08-31T16:55:18.747+01:00cause I suppose that's what professional apolo...cause I suppose that's what professional apologists do. But I really don't think the regular folks think about this stuff. Just religious geeks like us!Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-65285959239385362752009-08-31T16:51:49.559+01:002009-08-31T16:51:49.559+01:00Does he? Or does someone else bring it up and he ...Does he? Or does someone else bring it up and he responds?<br /><br />and you realize Turretinfan, the religious geeks like you and me and Kelly and probably Paul are not the norm! Most folks really could care less.Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-68440335108258550692009-08-31T16:37:56.656+01:002009-08-31T16:37:56.656+01:00If nobody cares, why does he bring it up?If nobody cares, why does he bring it up?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-30519719184386776922009-08-31T16:35:55.308+01:002009-08-31T16:35:55.308+01:00I would think if he was going to proselytize there...I would think if he was going to proselytize there would be easier ways to go about it. I don't think many regular people care about anathemas other than as historical footnotes.Elena LaVictoirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18108910015959872763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-87751265850755878782009-08-31T16:17:31.560+01:002009-08-31T16:17:31.560+01:00Kelly:
Actually, I'm mostly interested in the...Kelly:<br /><br />Actually, I'm mostly interested in the truth of the matter with respect to whether the anathemas of the past have really been lifted.<br /><br />From everything that I can see from official sources, the answer is "no," but Mr. Akin (and others at places like Catholic Answers) seem intent on trying to claim that the anathemas are actually gone.<br /><br />I don'Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-31561244624055425972009-08-31T16:04:40.009+01:002009-08-31T16:04:40.009+01:00So, you are a baptized Catholic who has formally b...So, you are a baptized Catholic who has formally been excommunicated and you would prefer to tell people that you are under anathema because it is snazzier or what? <br /><br />Again, I don't get the point you are trying to make.Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120027058653022897noreply@blogger.com