tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post8590378636453846784..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Clement of Rome and Bryan Cross - Justification by Faith Alone or Faith and Works?Turretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-72403319486856651292013-01-17T19:00:46.150+00:002013-01-17T19:00:46.150+00:00I think Bryans main error is reading medieval scho...I think Bryans main error is reading medieval scholastic theology back into the fathers and first century christianity. The whole idea of faith and love as virtues was something invented by the medieval scholastics. It is completely foriegn to the fathers and Paul, who know of no such concept of faith. Vincentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-29074374922182275192013-01-10T13:40:25.654+00:002013-01-10T13:40:25.654+00:00Maybe you should read up more on this topic, Vince...Maybe you should read up more on this topic, Vincent. I simply refer you back to what I already wrote in the article.turretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-78011339065335336902013-01-10T02:00:30.310+00:002013-01-10T02:00:30.310+00:00I would like to comment here if I may. First let m...I would like to comment here if I may. First let me make it clear that i am not a Roman Catholic in any way, so dont confuse me for sometype of apologist. First I would like to add that those qoutations of Trent are not dealing with justification, but with the increase of justice which is distinct from justification itself. In Roman thelogy the event of justification happens instantly at baptism Vincentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-84200871477021343002012-05-18T21:08:12.558+01:002012-05-18T21:08:12.558+01:00The following Protestant patristic scholars offer ...The following Protestant patristic scholars offer a much different take on the soteriology of 1 Clement than that of Lane Keister and TurretinFan:<br /><br />It is obvious that in asserting justification by faith Clement was simply reproducing Paul’s idea without appreciating what it involved, and that he really agreed with the other Christians of his day that salvation is to be had only by David Waltzhttp://articulifidei.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-73123394759319425792012-05-05T23:59:31.326+01:002012-05-05T23:59:31.326+01:00Lucian:
It doesn't seem to be used that way b...Lucian:<br /><br />It doesn't seem to be used that way by the author of 1 Clement, no.<br /><br />-TurretinFanturretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-35053790855911701412012-05-05T21:43:37.423+01:002012-05-05T21:43:37.423+01:00The first point to note is that the author of Clem...<b>The first point to note is that the author of Clement is describing the instrument of Rahab's salvation from the destruction of Jericho. He's not saying she was justified from her sins by a combination of faith and something else.</b><br /><br />No offense, but isn't your interpretation a little absurd? Isn't Rahab's physical salvation a metaphor for our own spiritual Luciannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-36589950249067571852012-05-05T14:30:03.265+01:002012-05-05T14:30:03.265+01:00TF,
Yah, that is interesting. It is sorta like sa...TF,<br /><br />Yah, that is interesting. It is sorta like saying that your infallible interpreter is a stone rock, which can neither say or write anything!<br /><br />As far as the limit to postmodernity goes, the problem is that postmodernism does not reject the concept of local authority. As Kevin Vanhoozer points out:<br /><br /><i>Postmodernity does not mean the end of all authority, however,Hebrew Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-18969612186348421762012-05-02T12:45:09.227+01:002012-05-02T12:45:09.227+01:00Yes, HebrewStudent. There are several things that...Yes, HebrewStudent. There are several things that make that even worse. First, Rome doesn't "infallibly interpret" very many passages. Even that interpretation of the passage of James above is an interpretation that is not in a canon. When Rome has no infallible interpretation, those in the Roman communion feel free to interpret the passages however they like. The only limit onturretinfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-74665629208475189512012-05-02T04:39:01.540+01:002012-05-02T04:39:01.540+01:00I think what this shows is what Rome has done in m...I think what this shows is what Rome has done in making itself an "infallible interpreter." When your interpretation is controlled by your community, there is no possible way you could ever care about the intent of the author. That is why the Hebrew Bible has got to be tortured by silly parallels in order to get the Marian dogmas. This is why I said that an alleged "infallible"Hebrew Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-69047934719118010152012-05-02T02:22:56.904+01:002012-05-02T02:22:56.904+01:00I would comment on these words.
TF: "Notice ...I would comment on these words.<br /><br />TF: <i>"Notice that the author of Clement describes here how Abraham is recognized as faithful. He is recognized as faithful by his obedience. Moreover, a reward was given him for his faith and hospitality, but that reward was not justification, not is it eternal life, but a son in his old age."</i><br /><br />What strong faith the father of Natamllcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-78942092493775509482012-05-02T02:08:43.408+01:002012-05-02T02:08:43.408+01:00Here comes my second point based on what you wrote...Here comes my second point based on what you wrote.<br /><br />TF: <i>"...While we are exhorted to love "so that through love our sins may be forgiven us," notice that it does not say "through our love." Notice as well that the author does not attribute the blessedness to the man who is most careful to keep the commandments, but rather to those chosen by God through JesusNatamllcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-64224080681132749082012-05-02T01:54:00.155+01:002012-05-02T01:54:00.155+01:00I want to comment on a few things because of what ...I want to comment on a few things because of what I just read. I will take them one at a time. <br /><br />The first thing I want to observe about "the faith once delivered to the Saints" that was clearly active and working His Righteousness in Rahab comes from this:<br /><br /><i>"... When he comes to applying her physical salvation to spiritual salvation, her works are not in theNatamllcnoreply@blogger.com