tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post12544036383201679..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Erasmus' Words - Could Beckwith, Cross, and Liccione Endorse?Turretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-66069517982316617112010-01-12T02:41:31.984+00:002010-01-12T02:41:31.984+00:00Turretinfan:
I am a Catholic in communion with Be...Turretinfan:<br /><br />I am a Catholic in communion with Benedict XVI. I didn't want to speak for Beckwith, Cross, or Liccione, though. <br /><br />I think it would be a mistake for a Catholic apologist to make a dichotomy like that because it wouldn't represent how Catholics in general regard the Church's teaching. However, as a personal statement in a letter to a friend (thanks Ransomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-26807230793102425652010-01-11T02:16:51.159+00:002010-01-11T02:16:51.159+00:00Ransom:
a) You phrase the matter as though you we...Ransom:<br /><br />a) You phrase the matter as though you were not a Roman Catholic, but simply speculating as to what one might say. Are you in communion with Benedict XVI?<br /><br />b) The context (posted as one of the comments above) helps to clarify what he meant, to the extent that there is ambiguity.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-42077066654774946902010-01-10T17:47:09.581+00:002010-01-10T17:47:09.581+00:00Re the original question
I don't think a Cath...Re the original question<br /><br />I don't think a Catholic would want to formulate it the way Erasmus did -- "truth or authority, take your pick: my choice is authority." It sets up an essentially false dichotomy. <br /><br />Of course, there's always the possibility that Erasmus really was sympathetic with the Arian and Pelagian positions and would have liked the Church toRansomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-89777240544371319682010-01-09T01:27:54.168+00:002010-01-09T01:27:54.168+00:00"hays", with all things well, you are a ..."hays", with all things well, you are a crack up, you know? :)<br /><br />Coptic eh? That's funny, really really funny!<br /><br />I hope everyone else has a sense of your humor?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-5696814287647176112010-01-08T23:06:02.712+00:002010-01-08T23:06:02.712+00:00Taylor Marshall -- I agree with you there is only ...Taylor Marshall -- I agree with you there is only one church. But you have not made the case that Paul was talking about the Roman Catholic church. Such a thing did not exist in Paul's day. You say it "developed." There is no connection. <br /><br />Here's what you said: <i>As Saint Paul taught, the church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" - she does not err.</i>John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-58680342840730268472010-01-08T23:05:33.027+00:002010-01-08T23:05:33.027+00:00So DTKing, I'm calling you out for misrepresen...<i>So DTKing, I'm calling you out for misrepresenting our Christian brothers of the first four centuries.</i> <br /><br />Well, please pardon me for noticing your rather overt "old west" posturing, but by God's grace I will respond to you when I find the time, and I will do so gladly. Pope Clement, eh? Only in your dreams. :)<br /><br />Cheersdtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-64791526628923329322010-01-08T22:30:13.535+00:002010-01-08T22:30:13.535+00:00Mr. King,
Contemporary Jesuits tend to be the mos...Mr. King,<br /><br />Contemporary Jesuits tend to be the most subversive religious order within the Catholic Church - known from their dissent. Many are rather "Protestant" - so don't take this random Jesuit quote as indicative of Catholic tradition.<br /><br />The you provide quote reads:<br /><br />"If one had asked a Christian in the year 100, 200, or even 300 whether the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702278020570844195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-73379431727658646502010-01-08T22:25:41.112+00:002010-01-08T22:25:41.112+00:00Taylor Marshall said...
"There is also only ...Taylor Marshall said...<br /><br />"There is also only one Church on earth that claims to be the pillar and ground of truth - the one that goes back, unbroken to the Apostles, i.e. the Holy Catholic Church."<br /><br />So do you belong to the Coptic Church or the Ethiopian Church?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-424022825838293922010-01-08T22:20:46.907+00:002010-01-08T22:20:46.907+00:00"There is also only one Church on earth that ..."There is also only one Church on earth that claims to be the pillar and ground of truth"<br /><br />Lots of groups claim that.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-65916563660419094092010-01-08T22:15:37.344+00:002010-01-08T22:15:37.344+00:00Dear John Bugay,
There is only on Church because ...Dear John Bugay,<br /><br />There is only on Church because there is only one Christ - this is also taught by Saint Paul.<br /><br />There is also only one Church on earth that claims to be the pillar and ground of truth - the one that goes back, unbroken to the Apostles, i.e. the Holy Catholic Church.<br /><br />Do you believe any denomination to be the pillar and ground of Church?<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702278020570844195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-19884645632299316282010-01-08T22:04:59.099+00:002010-01-08T22:04:59.099+00:00The number one reason right now is that you didn&#...<i>The number one reason right now is that you didn't just present the support to me.<br /></i><br /><br />Firstly, Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.<br /><br />Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06008766411494290281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-12983264634587393492010-01-08T21:45:12.369+00:002010-01-08T21:45:12.369+00:00LOL:
When you (I'm grouping you in here with ...LOL:<br /><br />When you (I'm grouping you in here with Roman Catholics generally) appeal to Scripture, dtking refutes you from Scripture. When you appeal to history/tradition he refutes you from that too. Yet you still reject what he teaches. From this we learn that in fact you accept neither the authority of Scripture or tradition.<br /><br />Do you think that is an inconsistent way for Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-78855690115150103462010-01-08T21:42:13.039+00:002010-01-08T21:42:13.039+00:00"Why do you think that the premise that God g..."Why do you think that the premise that God guides the Church supernaturally is not supported in Scripture?"<br /><br />The number one reason <i>right now</i> is that you didn't just present the support to me.<br /><br />"My faith that God works supernaturally to protect the Church from error is based on scripture and church history."<br /><br />Well, your faith is one Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-69984812274589127502010-01-08T21:37:36.631+00:002010-01-08T21:37:36.631+00:00DTKing:
You just spent a whole lot of effort citi...DTKing:<br /><br />You just spent a whole lot of effort citing 'traditions of men' and very little on Scripture. If a Catholic had cited so many sources outside of the Bible, you'd most likely cry 'foul'. Please use more consistant methods of argumentation.Lothair Of Lorrainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08500837155446550672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-80351932074608658872010-01-08T21:12:53.221+00:002010-01-08T21:12:53.221+00:00OK, I think I understand.
You said: "The rem...OK, I think I understand.<br /><br />You said: <i>"The remainder of your discussion seems to be premised on the idea that the development of doctrine should be attributed to the activity of the church acting in a supernatural way."</i><br /><br />I would tweak your premise in the following way: God is the one who acts supernaturally and guides the Church. The Church just not simply SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06008766411494290281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-81709363882285841332010-01-08T21:03:21.240+00:002010-01-08T21:03:21.240+00:00SP:
No.
I stated: "The remainder of your di...SP:<br /><br />No.<br /><br />I stated: "The remainder of your discussion seems to be premised on the idea that the development of doctrine should be attributed to the activity of the church acting in a supernatural way.<br /><br />However, that premise doesn't seem to be able to be supported from Scripture."<br /><br />Then I asked: "Are you supporting that premise from the Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-69976255602834678562010-01-08T21:00:02.394+00:002010-01-08T21:00:02.394+00:00Thank you TFan.
Now you asked why I think the Chu...Thank you TFan.<br /><br />Now you asked why I think the Church is supernatural right?SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06008766411494290281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-8852896935205788712010-01-08T20:53:39.639+00:002010-01-08T20:53:39.639+00:00SP:
You asked: "Do you believe the bible is ...SP:<br /><br />You asked: "Do you believe the bible is a supernatural text?"<br /><br />I'm not sure what you intend by your question. Let me explain what I believe, and you can tell me if that answers your question, and - if not - what I've left out.<br /><br />I believe that all Scripture is θεόπνευστος (theopneustos). That means that it is given by the inspiration of God,Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-90752791713271033032010-01-08T20:22:49.010+00:002010-01-08T20:22:49.010+00:00TF: you always seem to miss the point, or at least...<i>TF: you always seem to miss the point, or at least try hard to. If the divintiy of Jesus was inarguably clear from the Bible, then the councils would have been unnecessary. You are reading dogma back into the Scripture and assuming that Arianism was some irrational abnormality, abusing what would only later became obvious to all by holy decree….</i><br /><br />Actually, it is the Roman dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-30038254802485107482010-01-08T20:09:49.880+00:002010-01-08T20:09:49.880+00:00T Fan.
Can I ask you a question for illustrative ...T Fan.<br /><br />Can I ask you a question for illustrative purposes?<br /><br />Do you believe the bible is a supernatural text?SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06008766411494290281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-17590263228123203032010-01-08T19:51:11.506+00:002010-01-08T19:51:11.506+00:00"Christ said the kingdom is like a the seed o..."Christ said the kingdom is like a the seed of a tree, not like a decomposing apple. So, whilst I grant that some natural process cause things to decompose I am not sure how this can be applied to doctrine. And, while we say that development is 'natural' the Church Herself is the supernatural body of Christ."<br /><br />In fact, in the seed analogy Christ used, the seed has to Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-28928653678809592972010-01-08T19:42:41.165+00:002010-01-08T19:42:41.165+00:00Let me suggest that there is a more fundamental qu...<i>Let me suggest that there is a more fundamental question. The more fundamental question is whether the development itself is a good thing. For example, a natural development of iron is to rust. While that is a natural development (in some sense), I don't approve of my silverware rusting, and I try to restore it to its original state, even if that takes a lot of scrubbing and aberration SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06008766411494290281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-2283808314899712732010-01-08T19:17:29.592+00:002010-01-08T19:17:29.592+00:00Context:
I never maintained that the opinion of O...Context:<br /><br />I never maintained that the opinion of Oecolampadius on the Eucharist was by far the soundest. It is true, that among some friends I went so far as to say that I could adopt that sentiment, if the authority of the church had approved it; but I added, that I could by no means dissent from the church. By the church, I mean the consent of the body of Christian people. I know not Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-35502065815285330522010-01-08T19:17:21.410+00:002010-01-08T19:17:21.410+00:00Taylor Marshall:
"As Catholics, we hold that...Taylor Marshall:<br /><br />"As Catholics, we hold that the magisterium is infallible - so it's an unfair question."<br /><br />How is asking if you could endorse Erasmus' words an unfair question?<br /><br />"It would be tantamount to asking this question to a Protestant: "If Scripture taught Arianism, would you become Arian?" Infallible sources of truth teach Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-27804259990086787852010-01-08T19:01:58.329+00:002010-01-08T19:01:58.329+00:00LOL:
I've disposed of that argument here: (l...LOL: <br /><br />I've disposed of that argument here: (<a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/01/arianism-is-consistent-with-scripture.html" rel="nofollow">link</a>). Feel free to leave any further rebuttal you may have on the topic of whether "the divintiy of Jesus was inarguably clear from the Bible."<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.com