tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post4120247148063964372..comments2024-03-17T08:25:33.806+00:00Comments on Thoughts of Francis Turretin: Formal Sufficiency of Scripture: Early Christian Writers (Guest Series)Turretinfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-60563920276441214602010-11-14T19:37:22.224+00:002010-11-14T19:37:22.224+00:00"While I respect and appreciate both TF and P..."While I respect and appreciate both TF and Pastor King, that they are Presbyterians and hold carefully to the WCoF, I would want to say, basis some Scriptures, that there is a broader issue at stake and being attacked here."<br /><br />I think we all agree that the Scripture as the sole infallible rule of faith for the Church is what is being attacked by Roman Catholicism. And this is Chafer DTShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128689713330849677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-59729166019369956992010-11-13T13:20:59.833+00:002010-11-13T13:20:59.833+00:00Thanks again!Thanks again!Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-16599571211640983432010-11-13T13:08:15.057+00:002010-11-13T13:08:15.057+00:00Thanks TF,
Sorry, one more in the Ignatius sectio...Thanks TF,<br /><br />Sorry, one more in the Ignatius section; "reasonable" should be "reasonably": <br /><br /><i>I'm simply showing that they can be <b>reasonable</b> understood within the milieu of other early writings and, of course, the Scriptures themselves.</i><br /><br />In Him,<br />CDCoram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-88956757193528358822010-11-13T03:39:50.209+00:002010-11-13T03:39:50.209+00:00Good catch. That was indeed my own typo. I have ...Good catch. That was indeed my own typo. I have corrected it. We have also updated this post to include an additional quotation from Polycarp.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-25697058105410259652010-11-13T02:33:42.277+00:002010-11-13T02:33:42.277+00:00Really enjoying this series, Pastor King. Praise ...Really enjoying this series, Pastor King. Praise be to the Lord for your committment to His glory.<br /><br />TF,<br /><br />One quick housekeeping item on spelling; the sentence below needs a quick typo correction; "two" should be "too":<br /><br /><i>What's interesting about this point that Irenaeus raises is that he is directly addressing the error of those who try to Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-11624710228919233192010-11-11T14:28:09.875+00:002010-11-11T14:28:09.875+00:00OK missed the link to the intro article. I read it...OK missed the link to the intro article. I read it, But more succinct clarification would still be helpful. It still seems as if material sufficiency is what is being described. You seem to grant that there is a distinction between material and formal, but I am having trouble seeing that in the definitions of the two.David Meyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-18625894407532061582010-11-11T14:12:44.811+00:002010-11-11T14:12:44.811+00:00I am interested in this article and just need a po...I am interested in this article and just need a point clarified. I have looked and I can't seem to find an exact definition of Formal Sufficiency in the article. Could I get that definition? This will help me as I read the article. <br />While your at it, a definition of material sufficiency would help also.<br />Also, a definition of what exactly the article is attempting to show concerning David Meyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-90799166424510104322010-11-11T12:49:08.976+00:002010-11-11T12:49:08.976+00:00Lucian:
You wrote: "The Gnostics brought unk...Lucian:<br /><br />You wrote: "The Gnostics brought unknown and unheard teachings to the text of Scripture (eg, "seeing" the Twelve Aeons "taught" in passages like those about Jesus going to the Temple at age twelve, or the woman who was cured of her illness after twelve years of suffering, etc). -- obviously, this is not how the ancient Churches view the role of Holy Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-25859840763077799472010-11-10T22:20:38.363+00:002010-11-10T22:20:38.363+00:00"You guys are amazing. David T King goes arou..."You guys are amazing. David T King goes around proclaiming something and I ask for proof and then I am accused of being unfair for asking him to prove it."<br /><br />That's not true, Sean. You want him to defend something he hasn't asserted.<br /><br />"In the previous thread you quoted Yves Congar whom I then quoted demonstrating that our definitions of 'formal Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-39167404159832337842010-11-10T20:53:12.001+00:002010-11-10T20:53:12.001+00:00Here's my second response to the thread.
It i...Here's my second response to the thread.<br /><br />It is written:<br /><br /><i>The interesting thing about the preceding quotation is that Ignatius expects parents to be teaching their children the Scriptures. That may not say much directly to the topic of perspicuity, but it does suggest that the Scriptures are something that a child is capable of understanding - and that parents are Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-60429542601185325312010-11-10T20:44:12.088+00:002010-11-10T20:44:12.088+00:00The Truth of God's Word and Faith are being at...<i>The Truth of God's Word and Faith are being attacked.</i><br /><br />Yes, I think we understand this more than you think we do.dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-67657058861085676792010-11-10T20:28:40.084+00:002010-11-10T20:28:40.084+00:00While I wait for my initial response to be release...While I wait for my initial response to be released from the blog filter, <b><i>ChaferDTS</i></b>, I would comment on this comment you made above:<br /><br />"<i>TF and DTKing are Presbyterians and their views are well stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith. The same view is found in all the creds of Protestants during and after the reformation.</i>"<br /><br />While I respect Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-61848318443612883382010-11-10T19:59:36.204+00:002010-11-10T19:59:36.204+00:00ChaferDTS: "At that time I looked in to Luth...<b>ChaferDTS</b>: <i>"At that time I looked in to Luther, Calvin and other reformers to see what they believed and how they supported it both biblically and historically. I saw for myself that they were correct on Sola Scripture and Sola Fide. <b>They had the clear support of the church fathers on the issue of Sola Scripture having seen this in the church father writings themselves as I Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-63752750724496423672010-11-10T19:44:44.686+00:002010-11-10T19:44:44.686+00:00TF, can you release my comments from the blog filt...TF, can you release my comments from the blog filter?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-8327650719697203912010-11-10T19:42:37.238+00:002010-11-10T19:42:37.238+00:00Sean,
here we go again! grrrrr
You just wrote, f...Sean,<br /><br />here we go again! grrrrr<br /><br />You just wrote, for the umpteenth time something like this here, again, responding to TF and Pastor King's work hereon:<br /><br /><i>The discussion is about the role of the Church in teaching what is recorded in the Scripture. </i><br /><br />Geeesh!<br /><br />Moving onto my other comments then.<br /><br />First then, to Justin Martyr:<brAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-87647457597265438052010-11-10T18:59:34.336+00:002010-11-10T18:59:34.336+00:00"You see, a Romanist cannot embrace the persp..."You see, a Romanist cannot embrace the perspicuity of Scripture, as defined by the Reformed, because your communion has told you a priori that it's not true. So, you are simply being true to the dictates of your apostate communion. "<br /><br />That is exactly how it is. I experienced this first hand having grown up since birth in the RCC and leaving it as an adult when I was 19. Chafer DTShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128689713330849677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-12899584570182543632010-11-10T18:47:42.805+00:002010-11-10T18:47:42.805+00:00"Irenaues speaks in plain terms about the suc..."Irenaues speaks in plain terms about the succession of bishops by the sacrament of Holy Orders - something you reject. "<br /><br />Ireaenus list Linus as the very first Bishop of Rome and not the apostle Peter. Yet that does not stop Roman Catholic apologist from trying to use him to prove apostolic succession through the episcopate in the line of Peter. You are using double standardsChafer DTShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128689713330849677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-27751629842788150002010-11-10T18:33:49.342+00:002010-11-10T18:33:49.342+00:00You guys are amazing. David T King goes around pro...<i>You guys are amazing. David T King goes around proclaiming something and I ask for proof and then I am accused of being unfair for asking him to prove it. </i><br /><br />Yes, the evidence for our position is overwhelming, and it will only become stronger in subsequent posts in this series. You see, a Romanist cannot embrace the perspicuity of Scripture, as defined by the Reformed, because dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-43777004756021079972010-11-10T18:25:10.811+00:002010-11-10T18:25:10.811+00:00The Gnostics brought unknown and unheard teachings...The Gnostics brought unknown and unheard teachings to the text of Scripture (eg, "seeing" the Twelve Aeons "taught" in passages like those about Jesus going to the Temple at age twelve, or the woman who was cured of her illness after twelve years of suffering, etc). -- obviously, this is not how the ancient Churches view the role of Holy Tradition..<br /><br /><br />I've Luciannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-70059998328977377332010-11-10T18:23:50.412+00:002010-11-10T18:23:50.412+00:00What a waste of time - at least I am not the one s...<i>What a waste of time - at least I am not the one spinning my wheels inventing these posts but I am surely not going to waste anymore time answering them.</i><br /><br />Thanks for sharing. Is this a promise?dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-81341452042691478742010-11-10T17:53:33.481+00:002010-11-10T17:53:33.481+00:00Hello Blogahon,
Do you think that you could say f...Hello Blogahon,<br /><br />Do you think that you could say from now on something like the following:<br /><br />"Protestant apologists have advanced the argument of the "Formal Sufficiency of Scripture" and have proven it, yet it's a definition of "Formal Sufficiency" that I and other Roman Catholics don't agree with."<br /><br />In other words, please don&#Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-81871203772280643372010-11-10T17:45:22.849+00:002010-11-10T17:45:22.849+00:00As for seeming not to care about what Irenaeus sai...As for seeming not to care about what Irenaeus said about the church, the real question is whether what he said about the church is relevant to the question. Irenaeus having a high view of the church doesn't necessarily prevent him from viewing the Scriptures as formally sufficient.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-82692836314545937522010-11-10T17:37:07.575+00:002010-11-10T17:37:07.575+00:00You guys are amazing. David T King goes around pr...You guys are amazing. David T King goes around proclaiming something and I ask for proof and then I am accused of being unfair for asking him to prove it. <br /><br />In the previous thread you quoted Yves Congar whom I then quoted demonstrating that our definitions of 'formal sufficiency' are exactly the same. You then accuse me of having the wrong definition.<br /><br />What a waste Blogahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08390152245638471831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-79775701508945436652010-11-10T17:22:13.965+00:002010-11-10T17:22:13.965+00:00Sean:
"Am I making no sense here? Why is it ...Sean:<br /><br />"Am I making no sense here? Why is it that on Called to Communion the vast majority of the 100+ comments got my point immediately but here I am treated like I don't know my right hand from my left?"<br /><br />One explanation is this:<br /><br />Proverbs 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.<br /><br />YouTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21597890.post-51941915475144774952010-11-10T17:05:13.345+00:002010-11-10T17:05:13.345+00:00And you don't seem to even care how Irenaeus d...<i>And you don't seem to even care how Irenaeus defines the Church. You import your 16th century conception of the church which was foreign to Irenaues and thus miss the mark. </i><br /><br />Thanks for sharing your hobby horse again. No one has imported anything back into Irenaeus but you and your conception of what he says about the church.<br /><br />But again, you refuse to deal with the dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.com