In a previous post (link), this blog noted that there seems to be a propensity among certain modern Amyraldians to call themselves by another name that suggests affiliation with Calvin and Calvinism.
While I pointed out the dishonesty in this approach (since their doctrine has a recognized descriptive label that's not Calvinism), I may have overstated it a bit to suggest that they got the idea from Dr. Geisler. In fact, while he is the biggest name recently to try such a thing, the fact is that Amyraut himself (for whom the doctrine is named) attempted to assert that he was fully consistent with Dordt and Calvin.
I don't think ever called true Calvinists "ultra-Calvinists" or "hyper-Calvinists," nevertheless he (and his modern followers, particular open followers such as Dr. Alan C. Clifford) asserted that he had the true mantle of Calvin. More can be read about Amyraldianism in this thorough article written by Pastor Angus Stewart (link).
If the master did it, is it any surprise if the disciples do it?
Compare (link) Dr. Clifford's own page, or this list of 90 allegedly supporting passages from Calvin (link), apparently also produced by Dr. Clifford.
Finally for the reader that has awaited a critical examination of Amyraldianism, welcome to it (link).
-Turretinfan
Saturday, December 08, 2007
6 comments:
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TF
ReplyDeleteof many, one area of concern to me is the word:
"all"
when understanding why, we must remain vigilant constantly before the Throne of Grace and constantly meditating on the Word and only allowing the Holy Ghost to lead our thoughts and conclusions about these matters while reigning here in everyday Life.
One only look at a Greek Word and who used it and apply it to that word "all" in deciding what doctrines are sound and what doctrines either boldly or with subtlety as in the case of Amyraldianism teach doctrines of demons.
Here is the Greek Word:
λογικός
logikos
log-ik-os'
From G3056; rational (“logical”): - reasonable, of the word.
The Apostles Peter and Paul use it once each and you find it applied only twice in the New Testament:
Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
1Pe 2:2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation--
I know we have discussed this word before some time ago. In light of these links and articles you point your readers to review that show both true and false arguments, the good and the bad direction Christianity has come, I remain steadfast that one need only consider that both men, Peter and Paul, obviously were schooled directly for the purpose of keeping us in the Faith and guided by the True Grace of God. They both placed an emphasis on this "beginning" word at the beginning of their teaching on an Elect's walk towards maturity and ability to rightly divide Scripture to discern errors that creep into our culture.
Jesus Himself made emphasis towards "lambs" being fed when He asked Peter if he "loved" Him? cf John 21:5 and see also that Jesus called these grown men "children" and then the questioning of Peter directly a bit later on instructing him to, cf John 21:15, "feed my lambs".
Now to bring it together as I do, you judge this reasoning, whether or not it has any validity in your judgment. I point to two verses using the logikos of reason.
The first verse I point too that gives me concern because of the danger of this more subtle form on "inclusiveness" of Amyraldianism is Genesis one:two and the three things we can reason out. One is the earth, two is "darkness", darkness is used to imply the "fruit" of something and three, the Spirit of God.
So, creation for us humans began here at Genesis one:one. Not so with darkness, if indeed one concludes as I do that this word darkness is the fruit of something that happened before this present creation. If darkness is a "fruit" then that means there is a starting point for darkness and because God simply says the earth was formless and void and "darkness" was over the surface of the deep. It is the "seed" of something in this creation but the fruit of something before this creation. A seed does nothing until it "dies". Once it dies it germinates and grows and then bears "fruit". In this case then in the context of the Creation, the created heavens and earth and considering God's claim that "what He created” was very good, Genesis 1:31, then in essence God is asking us to consider that the darkness was not "created" at this time but is the product or fruit from an "earlier" time, hence, before this present creation. With this reasoning I am asking you, the reader, to consider that this creation “by intent and design” by Our Sovereign and somewhat Mysterious Maker, purposefully for "justifiable reasons" created this present heavens and earth as a conveyor of His Righteous Justice in ultimately carrying out the sentence upon the responsible party of "darkness". Now I believe Scripture bears out that Lucifer/Satan/the dragon/the serpent is the responsible "seed" of this "darkness" found referenced in Genesis 1:2. See here John 16:11-14,
Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
At Genesis 6 we see an anomaly that happens within creation that accelerates wickedness in creation.
Now turning to my case in chief why the "all" is important to logically and reasonably conclude that God did not send Jesus to die for "all" mankind, instead Christ was sent to do the “Will of Him Who Sent Him” to fulfill a Divine Decision through God’s Election, eternal damnation, that has to be placed into Eternity too just as darkness is found here.
Look at and consider this from Colossians 1:19-20,
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
God did not send Christ to die for all things in the heavens and earth, just He sent Him to "reconcile" "all" things to Himself whether on earth or in heaven. Consider what Satan answered God at Job 1 and 2 in light of what God said at 2 Chronicles 16:9,
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
My claim is this indicates how He is able to bring about eternal damnation on some and eternal Life on the Elect, which, like Christ, Who obviously is the Eternal Son of God, who is well know before the foundation of the world and the Elect, who also are known before the foundation of the world only in the Heart of these Three Eternal Sovereign Beings who appoint the Elect to carry out the legal act of the consequence of darkness being in the world. It is Christ's Elect who carry out God's Justice upon darkness and those responsible, in this world.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Why do I make that claim?
Because, consider the word "reconcile" in light of the mission Paul speaks about and the call to be ministers of reconciliation"
reconcile, used at Col. 1:20,
ἀποκαταλλάσσω
apokatallassō
ap-ok-at-al-las'-so
From G575 and G2644; to reconcile fully: - reconcile.
reconciled and reconciliation, used at 2 Cor. 2:18
2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
reconciled
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.
reconciliation
καταλλαγή
katallagē
kat-al-lag-ay'
From G2644; exchange (figuratively adjustment), that is, restoration to (the divine) favor: - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).
What is the difference?
Well in Col. 1:20, God is bringing about by the Blood of Christ’s Cross the final stages of carrying out His predetermined sentence upon the "fully" unchanging ones including the reprobates who's fate is found in that their names are not found in the book of Life, Rev. 20:15.
And in 2 Cor. 5:18 we see reconciling these who are the called and the "elect able", they have a change occur within their life, a mutual change, showing a willingness to receive the Free and True Grace of God and the Gift of Faith by God, Jesus and the Word/Holy Ghost! This is not the nature of a reprobate.
And consider that reconciliation means fully to restore to divine favor by atonement.
Well consider this in light of these unusual words and events recorded at John 12:20-33,
Joh 12:20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
Joh 12:21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
Joh 12:22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus.
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Joh 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
Joh 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.
It's interesting to me that Greeks were grasping who Christ is easier than His "own" Jewish brethren.
What happens nevertheless?
Christ sees or understands something now can happen because Greeks seek to worship Him. Greeks were coming to Jesus realizing that God was now on the earth! Jesus!!
What does the Majestic voice in the Eternal Heavens say?
What then does Christ say?
So we see there is something that has to happen on earth as has already happened in Heaven?
Satan was cast out of Eternity to the “surface of the deep”. God created the present heavens and earth so as to allow all in Eternity to see justifiably so why Lucifer/Satan/the old dragon/the Devil and his own, including his reprobates in the world, those who mixed humanity with them, Genesis 6, are going to suffer the sentence of eternal damnation while the Elect receive divine restoration, Eternal Life by the Gifts of Grace and Faith from the Divine Natures in this Life. And when a unbelieving Elect becomes that called and faithful Elect fully restored to Divine Favor they advance the Mission of Christ in the world in all ages.
There has been already a first "casting" out, from Eternity to outer darkness. Look now at the second casting out at Revelation 12:
Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
Rev 12:8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
And the final casting out to finally begin the sentence of eternal damnation is shown to John recorded at Revelation 20:
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
So you can hopefully realize that the Church, the Living Flesh manifestation of Christ on earth today has a lot of Faithful work to do. It is left to Christ and His Church to bring about the end of all things.
So hopefully you can also realize why Satan and the Beast and the False Prophet and the demons and Death and Hades and those whose names are not found in the book of Life resist the manifestation of the Church in all Her power and might and authority; “Christ” is Her power and might and authority!
I refer you to consider Psalm 2, Psalm 110 and I will post a portion of Psalm 149 and Daniel 2:44 and then make some final remarks.
Psalm 149:6-9
Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their throats and two-edged swords in their hands,
Psa 149:7 to execute vengeance on the nations and punishments on the peoples,
Psa 149:8 to bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron,
Psa 149:9 to execute on them the judgment written! This is honor for all his godly ones. Praise the LORD!
Daniel 2:44
Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,
Where are we heading as the Crowning Jewel of Jesus’ Crown?
Here and it is not going to be done as a cake walk!
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Paul describes what the world will be like in the last days, 1 Tim. 4 and 2 Tim. 3.
I leave off with an interpretation of what Peter means in 2 Peter 3:10-12,
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
It is the Holy Christian Church, the Holy Dwelling Places of the Most High that God has left with Christ to "hasten" the end, that notable and soon coming day of God.
All false doctrines distract us from this Truth. When we are off the True beat and path, the Way, the Truth and the Life, Satan and his own are safe from harm and we are in danger and in harms way.
When we are fully armed and loaded for battle with that Two-edged Sword and using it daily with prayers and intercessions, supplications and thanksgivings for all men, full of Grace and the Gift of Righteousness, as Paul and John both point too, we reign on the earth through Jesus Christ and we are safe from dangers and no longer in harms way. Who then is in harms way but the Beast, the False Prophet, Satan and his angels, Death, Hades and all whose names are not found in the book of Life?:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Note well two things here at Revelation 8, one, the “eighth” Angel and what the Saints are doing so that authority is given to the eighth Angel to do it:
Rev 8:1 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them.
We must remain vigilant against all false doctrines contending earnestly for the Faith once delivered to the Saint then!
Michael
Dear Michael,
ReplyDeleteWhile I do think that Amyraldianism is an error, and a serious error, I would be hesitant to use such strong language as "doctrines of demons."
All things were made by the Logos, and without the Logos, nothing was made that was made.
There's a single source for all of creation. The Son, the Word in the Flesh, made the mountains and the valleys, he made heaven and hell. Everything has its purpose.
He even made the demons.
God is unparalleled. There is no other "like him."
If we walk along a city wall and come to a gap in the wall, do we assume that the gap must have been made by someone opposing the wall's builder? Not necessarily. In fact, if that gap is fitted with a big door, we recognize that the gap was intentional. The builder left off building that part.
Likewise, if we enter the basement without turning on the light, do we look for a source that is providing the physical darkness around us? Surely not. We recognize that this is simply a place that is devoid of light.
If one lights a candle, the basement will be lit, but as soon as one extinguishes it, there is darkness.
Some have suggested that this is a useful parallel. For when God withdraws his light, darkness ensues - not because darkness is a force of its own, but because darkness is the absence of light.
Without Him, with the Logos, we are all in the absence of light, in darkness black.
Without the operation of the Holy Spirit, we are like Paul in Damascus, with scales covering our eyes, so that we see not the light that is there.
But when the scales fall off, when we are illumined with the light of the gospel, when our minds are opened, and the light pours in, what marvelous beauty it has!
Praise be to the Lord!
-Turretinfan
TF,
ReplyDeletethank you for your generosity and kind sharpening here!
Let me say, I don't know the man Amyraut. Did you meet him yourself? :)
I don't know if he is a brother, I tend to lean that way seeing he would be in the fray of the day and write what he did.
I would say he got off into areas where Demons love to be "thinking".
Now, let me take the opportunity here to open an area up that might shed some light on my strong language?
Before I get to it I want to post first here a verse that in my humble opinion establishes for me what I understand "fully" at this time to be "limited atonement". That there is not to say that I am fully understanding it "fully". It is just my strong language to say I am not yet convinced the debate over at our beloved friend Seth's blog has gotten me onto an unlimited/limited atonement page. Has he gotten you to that page yet?
Here's the verse and then I will come back to something and would greatly appreciate any help in clarity from your excellent mind/nous, seeing your words tend to resemble this, i.e.:::>
Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Here's the verse that I believe is the strongest to come to my mind establishing 5 point TULIP, the L word to be exact:
Ecc 3:16 Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness.
Ecc 3:17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.
Ecc 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?
Now to my strong position against Amyraldianism, it is here at three understandings.
Each involve Satan.
Each involve Paul.
Each gives a depth of understanding to the Disciple of Christ who is tasked with bringing the Gospel of the Kingdom to every creature for a witness and then shall come the end of these heavens and earth. Soon perhaps? One man said the other day that "soon" means something different to God than man. We have been preaching that Jesus is coming back "soon" for how many millenium now? :).
First then to the two lessons of the devil and the one lesson of God about the devil and his own devices, the Beast, the False Prophet, Satan himself and his angels, Death and Hades and those whose names are not found written in the book of Life.
1Co 5:4-5:
1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Hmmmm, let me get this one straight! Satan is our adversary and enemy and he only comes to kill, steal and destroy. He does everything in his power to destroy us and see us removed from the Heavenly rolls and put off the Wedding attire. Paul gathers, I know not how, with these folks here, in "spirit" and turns over this guy to Satan for the destruction of his flesh/sarx so that his spirit/pneuma is saved/sozo in the day of judgment!
Does God not have a sense of humor or what?
You would think by this Apostolic Authority of Paul being exercised by him Satan would be spitting mad that he has to destroy the flesh of a man so that the man is saved from the lake of fire where he will find himself "soon"?
Ok, here's another one:
1Tim. 1:18-20
1Ti 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
1Ti 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
1Ti 1:20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Hmmmm, Satan, the chief blasphemer of God to God's creatures, mankind, now is forced to "teach" [what pedagogy, huh?] Hymenaeus and Alexander to not blaspheme the Church! This guy Paul must not be welcome to dinner when Satan tears humans apart and eats them for lunch:
cf Job 18,
Job 18:13 It consumes the parts of his skin; the firstborn of death consumes his limbs.
So that the reader is not amused so much it utterly amazes me when considering those two oddities, 1 Cor. 4:4-5 and 1 Tim. 1:18-20 to read this:
2Co 12:7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.
and this:
1Th 2:8 So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us.... 1Th 2:17 But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face,
1Th 2:18 because we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, again and again--but Satan hindered us.
I would conclude by saying: "to each his own" and "we all have limitations" and "we only know in part" but in the fullness of times God sent the fullness of Himself to save a wretch like me! You?
Thanks again TF for your sharpness and clarity!
Michael
As to the unlimited/limited point, I think Seth's perhaps trying to spin the issues a bit.
ReplyDeleteHe means (as best I can tell) that there were at least two intentions in Christ's work: one limited and one unlimited.
It doesn't seem consistent to me, and that's why we're having the debate.
But, for now, that's all I'll say about the debate here.
Hopefully, the debate will continue next week on Seth's blog, and I think some of the folks there don't like it when I discuss the debate itself in other places.
-Turretinfan
Michael,
ReplyDeleteAs to God's (and Paul's) use of Satan, it really is amazing.
I think one preacher explained it this way:
God can strike a straight blow with a crooked stick.
Nothing gets in the way of God's plan, but all things work together for good to them that are the called according to His purpose.
Even Satan, who hates God, is actually useful to God. Even the prince of darkness can be (and is) used by God for the good of the elect.
That's how great God is.
-Turretinfan
I was asked to go see the movie Amazing Grace.
ReplyDeleteI liked what I heard John Newton say:
"I'm a great sinner and My God is a Great Savior".