Steve Ray has a list of 35 loaded Questions for "Bible Christians" (quotation marks his)(link to the whole list). This is number 34/35. I'm trying to provide the answers in a common format, for easy reference.
34) If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?
Simple Answer(s):
The premise of the question is mistaken. Denominational unity was not intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God.
Important Qualification(s):
1) See the answer to question 33, as well as my previous discussion of John 17 (link to John 17 discussion).
2) What ought to be remarkable to Rome's apologists is the continuity of brotherly love among the "ever-increasing fragmentation" in "Protestantism." Extremely few of those fragments (Westboro Baptists, for example) make the claim to be the one true church. The rest accept believers in other denominations as their brethren even despite the denominational disunity.
- TurretinFan
Friday, February 12, 2010
10 comments:
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#2 is an important and too often overlooked point.
ReplyDeleteYes TF, with regard to question 34), it does!
ReplyDeleteThat premise of that question by Ray, reveals "who" he believes is building "whose" church. It is not Christ fulfilling the Will of Our Heavenly Father, but rather his faith centers in the papacy and magisterium building its own belief system or religion.
Isn't it interesting that the false [g]od is building something that [h]is members focus on as a long lasting and permanent belief system or religion all the while what Christ is doing is bringing "everything" to it's own personal end including the members of His Church. That is what brings about unity within His Body, dying to self and living for God not living to God by performing good works.
And why would He do that? Because He was sent into this world to accomplish the Will of Our Heavenly Father, ending our natural life by gaining New Life for His Own through suffering death on His predetermined Cross by One Spirit:::>
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Here is just one way they go about bringing about false unity with false hope that produces an explicit false doctrine. The RCC routinely teaches that their members should call men "father" while Christ teaches "call no man father".
This is just making some of what is implicit explicit!
There is nowhere in Scripture that I know of where we come to understand that Jesus was sent into the world to convince them of anything, including the unity question above. Christ was sent "into" the world for a clear "eternal" purpose, that is, to save His own from their sins by cutting them off from their own flesh, this world and the devil. It is the children of the flesh who persecute the Children of the Spirit of Grace in this world producing disunity!
That there, Church, is quite a bit different than a false notion of world peace and unity brought about by the RCC, a false religion!
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Amen and amen, so what are you waiting for? Come and drink! Flee from that woman and do not be a partaker with her in her sins!!
I don't even understand the question the way it is put.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible says that the world will know we are Christians by our love for one another. Does this not take place all over the world every day and all throughout history, albeit amidst sin and human frailty?
Since Jesus prayed for the unity of His Church, either He failed to convince the Father to answer His request, or something else is in view when speaking of "unity."
Is Jesus a failure because we're sinful?
We have the final say and can foil any one of God's plans?
“Denominational unity was not intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God.”
ReplyDeleteTherefore Denominational disunity was intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God. But this is absurd, so Steves objection is real and has not been answered. Protestantism is not a true refection of Jesus’ mission.
JM
True Christian charity and spiritual unity is observed by the world, and is recognized as a characteristic peculiar to Christians, but they don't understand it, and are in fact perplexed by it.
ReplyDeleteBehold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 1:31
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:15
Like Christ's parabolic teachings themselves, the world is oblivious to the true communion of the saints of Christ.
I think this is also the reason Rome and her apologists are confused about this spiritual reality, subjecting it to a raw organizational, earthly, visible manifestation.
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him" — but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor. 2
Soli Deo Gloria!
In Christ,
CD
In response to this: “Denominational unity was not intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God.”
ReplyDeleteJM wrote: "Therefore Denominational disunity was intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God."
That is a non sequitur.
If [X] is not intended to do [Y]
it does not follow
Not [X] is intended to do [Y].
"But this is absurd, so Steves objection is real and has not been answered."
The absurdity is the result of illogical reasoning. Therefore, Steve's objection remains phantasmal.
"Protestantism is not a true refection of Jesus’ mission."
I'm sure you meant to say "reflection."
Question for you, though: why does God permit denominational disunity if it is not part of his mission?
-TurretinFan
“Denominational unity was not intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God.”
ReplyDeleteJM wrote: "Therefore Denominational disunity was intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God."
That is a non sequitur.
If [X] is not intended to do [Y]
it does not follow
Not [X] is intended to do [Y].”
So would unity convince the world that Jesus was sent by God or not?
"But this is absurd, so Steves objection is real and has not been answered."
”The absurdity is the result of illogical reasoning. Therefore, Steve's objection remains phantasmal.”
Its only phantasmal if you ignore the simple logical statements as follows
Unity is X – True
Not unity is X – False
Unity is not X - False
Not unity is not X - True
Where x is “intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God."
Where we have True in the last statement, we have disunity does not convince the world that Jesus was sent by God.
"Protestantism is not a true refection of Jesus’ mission."
I'm sure you meant to say "reflection."
Sure, "Protestantism is not a true reflection of Jesus’ mission." Because Not unity is not X - True
”Question for you, though: why does God permit denominational disunity if it is not part of his mission?”
Disunity is an evil permitted by Gods consequent will to sort the wheat from the chaff. Men have free will and can disobey Christ’s Catholic Church. This is the scandal of mans sinfulness. Denominationalism is not part of Gods mission.
Denomination only means to have part of the whole. Nomination means to have the whole. If you believe Christianity is comprised of many denominations, then you are saying Christianity is composed of many groups and none of which have the full gospel. That’s your problem as a Calvinist. You must admit that nobody has the full gospel, so Jesus has utterly failed in his mission to spread the full gospel to all men.
JM
JM,
ReplyDeletenot that you will stop, but you really are barking up the wrong tree.
What is missing is the "insider" information not granted to you, yet, if at all.
I know you probably won't understand what I said, but, hey, I said it anyway!
The problem with your logic there, is it only works with your logic.
Here's a couple of places from Paul and Peter where God actually implies the primary place one can use logic, logically. It is like what both men point too, the milk of the Word, the place where all newborn babes of Christ begin. It is as in the spiritual after the natural. This is the "milk" of the Word where we begin:::>
Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
and
1Pe 2:1 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.
1Pe 2:2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation--
Again, I will reiterate, it is understandable that you would not be able to understand what I just posted.
But, go ahead if you want too to take a jab at it?
"So would unity convince the world that Jesus was sent by God or not?"
ReplyDeleteActually, that's a very different question from "what kind of unity is being discussed." The unity of love does (not alone, but as one of the means that the Holy Spirit uses) convince the world.
"Its only phantasmal if you ignore the simple logical statements as follows
Unity is X – True
Not unity is X – False
Unity is not X - False
Not unity is not X - True"
Both of the "not unity ..." statements (if intended to flow from the "unity is ..." statements) are examples of the fallacy known as the denial of the antecedent.
"Where x is “intended to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God.""
The fallacy is a fallacy regardless of what x is.
"Where we have True in the last statement, we have disunity does not convince the world that Jesus was sent by God."
I don't think anyone would disagree with that particular conclusion, standing alone.
"Sure, "Protestantism is not a true reflection of Jesus’ mission." Because Not unity is not X - True"
Jesus' mission described this way?
Luke 12:51-53
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Or do you mean Jesus' mission according to your faulty understanding of John 17?
I had asked: ”Question for you, though: why does God permit denominational disunity if it is not part of his mission?”
JM replied: "Disunity is an evil permitted by Gods consequent will to sort the wheat from the chaff. Men have free will and can disobey Christ’s Catholic Church. This is the scandal of mans sinfulness. Denominationalism is not part of Gods mission."
Since when does Vatican II permit you to call all non-Roman Catholics "chaff"?
And appealing to "free will" isn't a valid defense, unless you insist that God's Providence is subordinate to man's will (and if you say that, you have bigger problems than your disobedience to Vatican II).
"Denomination only means to have part of the whole. Nomination means to have the whole."
No. You are simply demonstrating that your knowledge of English isn't any better than your knowledge of Reformed theology. That's not what those words mean.
"If you believe Christianity is comprised of many denominations, then you are saying Christianity is composed of many groups and none of which have the full gospel."
No, that's not what I'm saying.
"That’s your problem as a Calvinist. You must admit that nobody has the full gospel, so Jesus has utterly failed in his mission to spread the full gospel to all men."
a) Again, you don't understand Reformed theology. Even if I did think nobody had the full gospel, I'd view that as Christ's purpose (since Christ is omnipotent).
b) However, as noted above, I believe many denominations have the gospel (though Rome has anathematized the gospel).
c) You are the one who claim that "Jesus has utterly failed in his mission to spread the full gospel to all men" since you are the one who claims that such was his mission and that the "Protestants" don't have the full gospel.
- TurretinFan
The comments are too long so Ive made my own new blog here - http://cattomist.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteYou can post here or there or maybe we can strike up a talk on an agreed topic on your front page.
JM