Jamal Jivanjee is, like Ergun Caner, a real ex-Muslim. He has testified to the fact that he went to the same Muslim "mosque/ masjid" as the Caner family (link to testimony). Some of those supporting Ergun Caner have viewed this as complete vindication of Dr. Caner. There are a couple reasons why it is still incomplete.
a) Mr. Jivanjee has not identified what years (even approximately) it was that he witnessed the Caner family at the "mosque/ masjid." This is not significant to the question of whether the Caner family was Muslim, but it is significant to the question of how devout they were.
b) Mr. Jivanjee has not testified as to whether Ergun and/or Emir were devout when he knew the family. Indeed, his testimony suggests that he may not be able to say, since he may have known them only slightly (he remembers as a young child eating dinner with his family at the Caner house) and/or he may have been too young to remember that kind of information.
Those items are what we would like to see from Mr. Jivanjee. I had previously asked Mr. Jivanjee if he knew Caner when Caner was a Muslim (link to my question). Mr. Jivanjee has not responded to my request. I have also asked the author of the blog that has reported Mr. Jivanjee's comment to see if he can elicit any additional facts to help support the points above. The information above would help to provide evidence against the Muslim critics who have been alleging that Dr. Caner was never a real Muslim.
However, it should be noted that the Christian critics of Dr. Caner have not been arguing that Dr. Caner was never a Muslim. Instead, the Christian criticism has focused on a variety of autobiographical embellishments, from claiming to debate people he never debated, to claiming to be born in places he wasn't born, and to have lived in places he hasn't lived. None of those issues are addressed at all by Mr. Jivanjee's comments. Thus, I think Mr. Guthrie is too optimistic when he writes: "Liars? No"
-TurretinFan
Saturday, May 08, 2010
6 comments:
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That is essetially what I have said. The question is not his Islamic ties. Not really even the depth of his devotion. That is only one piece of an entire repetoire of embellishments. And it wouldn't be so bad, as you rightly linked to his apology, if he hadn't had denied the glaring consistent history of the embellishments or tried to excuse them as mere mistakes. The fact remains he did falsify material and he hasn't taken full credit for it.
ReplyDeleteThe persona that he constructed was a character in a large performance meant to elicit emotional attachments. It doesn't really preach Christ, rather, it makes appeal to cultic heroism. It is Finneyesque, big tent antics, and a prime reason that so many, when the emotions wain as the cause célèbre ebbs, fall away and become more skeptical than they were before they bit the apple. Ergun manipulated the angst against Islam and Tim G. only confirms that when he argues ad hominem that Muslims are always liars.
Jamal Jivanjee's testimony really underscores some things for me.
ReplyDeleteOne, it establishes that Ergun's claim to be raised in Turkey or under that system did not happen. That in itself refute's Ergun, does it not?
Two, it shows a "childhood" and a raising up in the Ohio area which validates the public records brought out already that a court order prohibited him from leaving the United States.
Three, it shows God is not prejudiced against Muslim Ohioians! God's people are evangelizing middle America too! :)
Four, Isalmic fundamentalism and the essence of their faith wasn't very strong influentially with regard to the Caner or Jivanjee families even though there was some connection to the faithful Muslim community in Ohio. That goes to show the Power of the Holy Spirit and His sancification work bearing fruit as recorded in Colossians is true:
Col 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel,
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing--as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,
Col 1:7 just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf
Col 1:8 and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.
Afterall, God can only save sinners. Liars who grow up in Ohio are sinners too.
Liars are saved all the time.
The problem isn't that God hates liars. The problem is when lies are used to proclaim the Truth, it backfires!
I make this bold prediction:
Pro 21:6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a fleeting vapor and a snare of death.
Pro 21:7 The violence of the wicked will sweep them away, because they refuse to do what is just.
There is coming a change of work, employer and lifestyle for Ergun Caner if he continues in this deception he birthed and nurtures.
I don't believe Dr. White's insights of late about the secular media running this story line is afar fetched. It's just a matter of time before they run his story through the mill, grind the grain and bake the bread and feed the hungry!
Yep. Complete vindication for Ergun Caner. The only question remaining: Will James White and his followers repent of the lies they have been spreading about Dr. Caner?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous:
ReplyDeleteDon't be dim. The criticism by Dr. White and other Christian critics is not now (and never was) that Dr. Caner wasn't ever a Muslim.
-TurretinFan
I first came into contact with the names of both Ergun Caner and Jamal Jivanjee only recently and in connection with a different set of issues--when a local young Muslim girl ran away from home. When she was discovered hiding with a Pastor in Florida, both Caner and Jivanjee appeared to give interviews, although Caner faded rapidly into the background. However, I also then became aware about some of the charges circulating that questioned Caner's veracity.
ReplyDeleteAs I have been reading some of the recent conversation--and brewing storm among Southern Baptists, I worry that a segment of the body of Christ may have adopted an attitude that dishonesty is justified in certain circumstances; and even more frightening that those who question such lies are placing their own faith in question.
Pastor Blake Lorenz, following the discovery that he had harbored Rifqa Bary in his household for nearly two weeks without notifying authorities, was questioned by his church board regarding false statements that he made to the press, and evasions he made to them. He seemed to think that such falsehood was justified. Even more disturbing was the lack of a trusting relationship within his own church family.
Many of the suppositions that have been presented publicly with regard to "all Muslims" in response to the actors in that case have been questionable on their face. And yet, any who question are immediately cast as being outside of acceptable Christian beliefs.
Personally, even though I live just a stone's throw from the Mosque where Caner alleges to have worshipped as a child, I have never experienced any personal harm from proximity to people who are Muslim, and have worked alongside and even worshipped with people of that faith. But the harm that I fear more, is the division within the Body of Christ, not only on this issue, but on many issues in which we find ourselves opposed to one another and making judgments about who the "true" Christians are--and dividing off not according to any teachings of Christ honestly discerned, but rather picking those with whom we agree on other things, overlooking their failings, to stand with us.
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteOne of my next posts will have a connection to the Rifqa Bary affair, sadly.
Yes, the entire matter is sad.
-TurretinFan