Cochlaeus was paraphrasing (badly) one of Luther's writings on the words "This is my body." We showed that the German does not support Cochlaeus' mistranslation.
Nevertheless, some of Steve Ray's supporters seemed to hold out hope that that Matthew Judex "official" Lutheran Latin translation of the work from 1556 might support Cochlaeus. It does not. The relevant portion in Matthew Judex' translation is this:
Si haec mundi machina per aliquot annos duraverit, iterum more patrum ad tollendas dissensiones humana quaerentur praesidia, constituemur qui; leges et decreta ad conciliandam et servandam in religione concordiam, quod quidem similem priori sortietur eventum.Image:
That is a far cry from Cochlaeus' paraphrase:Si diutius steterit mundus, iterum erit necessarium, ut propter diversas scripturae interptationes, quae nunc sunt, ad conservandum fidei unitatem, Conciliorum Decreta recipiamus, atquae ad ea confugiamus.Image:
Hopefully this last piece of the jigsaw puzzle lays the matter to rest, once and for all. It is not the case that Cochlaeus simply adopted the Matthew Judex translation.- TurretinFan
P.S. Perhaps Mr. Armstrong will now complete his post since the work is available (via Google Books), and provide a retraction/apology to Mr. Swan.
TF and Mr. Swan, one would hope Truth frees one from error?
ReplyDeleteThat, sadly, is not always the case.
For instance. We know and believe that those who "believe" shall be saved from error, right?
Wrong!
Not everyone to whom the Gospel is believed in fully is saved.
The Brother of Jesus wrote:
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!
Why is it so important to believe this?
Well, after the Apostle Paul had been with the Ephesian Church for a considerable period of time boldly declaring the Truth about the Truth from experience, he conferred with the Ephesian elders something that is quite remarkable to understand let alone "believe" is true for them. And if it is true for them, it certainly is true for us upon whom the Gospel rests today:
Act 20:17 Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him.
Act 20:18 And when they came to him, he said to them: "You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia,
Act 20:19 serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews;
Act 20:20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house,
Act 20:21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Here is a man who the Holy Spirit puts forth for us to learn from in our time. What do we learn about him? He is dedicated to the Truth and truth telling testifying to both Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of the faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. That seems to not affect liars against the Truth!
If the power of Satan was so strong then among the members of the Church at Ephesus, why think for one moment his strength is diminished one bit? I would think only one unlearned and not enlightened by the Holy Spirit would think such weakness?
Final pieces of any puzzle are always welcome and they only assist those who want freedom to live with Truth. I am certain there are those among us who do not want the Truth!
When you want to distance yourself from Life Giving Truth, sola scriptura, you should not be shocked to discover about yourself your inclination against the pieces of puzzles of Truth that can set your feet a dancing in and with the Truth!
Might I just remind those who have never read these Words with them, or, have forgotten them then, here:
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Clearly, with this hermeneutic as a backdrop for being set free by the Truth; again, I will assert, one would think one would settle with your final piece in Cochlaeus' misquotation of the Luther Puzzle?
Most certainly not in this world where devils abound and are influencing the unsuspecting souls who are asserting things God does not that are not the historical fact of truths of the matter in question!
This would then be a fair conclusion of them who will not accept the final piece in Cochlaeus' misquotation of Luther Puzzle:
2Co 4:1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart.
2Co 4:2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.
I was informed of a Roman Catholic audio response to this blog entry, it can be heard here.
ReplyDeleteActually Mr. Swan, It was more like a zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
ReplyDeleteHello Mr. Fan, your article doesn't help solve the mystery at all as Cochlaeus' quote came from a treatise that was written while Martin Luther was still alive some 13 years before the "official" Matthew Judex translation came out. I should know since I was the person who drove some 400 miles round trip to get a copy of the page from the book of Cochlaeus' to obtain the quote that you are referencing. Thus, it would be silly that to think that Cochlaeus got the quote from the Judex translation.
And given that a large portion of Luther's corpus has not yet been translated, we can't be 100% sure that Cochlaeus did not obtain the quote from another of Luther's works that paraphrased the earlier one written in 1526.
Criticism about Cochlaeus is one thing, lying about him is another.
God bless!
God bless!
Apropos misquotations of famous religious figures... :-)
ReplyDeleteI should know since I was the person who drove some 400 miles round trip to get a copy of the page from the book of Cochlaeus' to obtain the quote that you are referencing. Thus, it would be silly that to think that Cochlaeus got the quote from the Judex translation.
ReplyDeletePaul,
I'm sorry to hear you spent so much time on all this because of Steve Ray's non-commitment to checking sources before citation. I think the valuable lesson for your side at this point should be:
A one or two liner from Luther from a secondary source may bite, so it's best to look up the context.
Again, I'm sorry for all the time you had to waste in Steve Ray damage control for his mis-citation.
Hello Mr. Swan:
ReplyDeleteGetting to the truth of the matter was and still is that important to me. It was not a waste of time at all. Besides, Wittenburg University in Springfield, Ohio has a beautiful campus!
God bless!
Mr. Hoffer:
ReplyDelete"Hello Mr. Fan, your article doesn't help solve the mystery at all as Cochlaeus' quote came from a treatise that was written while Martin Luther was still alive some 13 years before the "official" Matthew Judex translation came out."
It's not really a mystery. Cochlaeus misparaphrased Luther. Yes, Cochlaeus' work was published 1543, whereas the MJ translation was published 1556.
"I should know since I was the person who drove some 400 miles round trip to get a copy of the page from the book of Cochlaeus' to obtain the quote that you are referencing."
I'm sorry you had to make that kind of trip. These days, the entire book is available for free on-line (see the link here).
"Thus, it would be silly that to think that Cochlaeus got the quote from the Judex translation."
Yes, it would. However, there were a lot of folks besides Cochlaeus who used some variant of Cochlaeus' paraphrase. If the MJ translation had been close, that would have (a) justified Cochlaeus' translation, and (b) justified the others who errantly relied on Cochlaeus.
"And given that a large portion of Luther's corpus has not yet been translated, we can't be 100% sure that Cochlaeus did not obtain the quote from another of Luther's works that paraphrased the earlier one written in 1526."
a) Negative propositions aren't really capable of 100% proof. There is always the possibility that someone managed to destroy every copy of the work that Cochlaeus was quoting, without calling attention to that fact, and without Cochlaeus catching wind of it to complain about it.
b) Incomplete English translation doesn't really seem to be an obstacle. We can read the German and Latin without too much difficulty, to check any possible candidate works.
"Criticism about Cochlaeus is one thing, lying about him is another."
I'm sure you know what the elements of lying are. They aren't present here. The statements about Cochlaeus fit the evidence and have proper justification (proper justification doesn't require 100% certainty).
-TurretinFan
TF,
ReplyDeleteha! again!!
I'm sure you know what the elements of lying are. They aren't present here. The statements about Cochlaeus fit the evidence and have proper justification (proper justification doesn't require 100% certainty).
In fact, from where God sits today with Jesus certainly at His Royal, Righteous Right Hand, one being "justified" need not have one bit of certainty for their fullness of the Justification they are brought into by the Will and Plan of God.
This point that Paul Hoffer makes is just another sound of the, ironically, Roman Catholic audio response to this blog entry, link provided above by James! :)
One should go to the link provided, listen to the response and get a certainty about the uncertainty both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths build on!
To make the point another way with another mind enlightened, that goes to the heart of this whole conflict, which will be a fight until the last breath is breathed by man fighting with Truth, I cite Dr. J.V. Fesko, from his book, Justification * Understanding the Classic Reformed Doctrine, P&R Publishing, page 394:
Eastern Orthodox hermeneutics bears some similarities to that of the Roman Catholic Church, in that both hold that the church produced the Scriptures rather than, ..., that the Scriptures produced the church."
Again, it can now, again, be pointed out, who is doing what here. You and James are allowing the Spirit of Grace and Truth speak to man's heart through your good works so that man would hear and turn to God so He can make them a part of His Church so they too can enter into that good work.
On the other hand, as we can see by Paul's responses, he too, being quite deceived by his church's faith and good works, attempts to conform man his church's faith and practice by traditions held and not by the Spirit of Grace and Truth.
This is what happens when you do not hold to sola scriptura allowing Scripture to define the good works God has prepared for the Church to do!
Also, I guess it should be noted, "who" is calling "who" a liar!