What's better about the New Covenant? Christ. That's the point of Hebrews. My beloved Reformed Baptist brothers seem to have missed this.
Baptism is not better than circumcision - the Lord's Supper is not better than the Passover. Instead, Christ's blood is better than the things that point forward or backward to it.
There is a distinction between the bloody forward-pointing signs and the bloodless backward-pointing signs, but it is not that the latter are more effective or better than the former.
Baptism is not "circumcision of the heart" - regeneration is. Both Baptism and Circumcision pictured that.
We feed on Christ by faith - not by our teeth chewing bread or chewing a lamb.
We are saved by the sprinkled blood of Christ - not that of the passover lamb nor by the water of baptism.
There is still a distinction between the outward physical signs and the inward spiritual reality. There is still a difference between the congregation/assembly of those who profess faith and the actual inward reality of profession of faith.
The difference between the New Covenant administration of the Covenant of Grace is Christ. That's what Hebrews says a ton of times. My RB brothers - I think you agree with me 90+% on this - why not that last 10%?
(previously posted on facebook)
Thursday, February 12, 2015
48 comments:
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But you do not get the blood applied by mental ascent faith which is not the faith that scripture speaks of Acts 2:38 is the only way the blood is applied by faith though the grace of God. God gave act 2:38 by his grace. You cannot have any of it without being in his body. You are not in body without his spirit and his name. You must be part of the bride a bride takes her husbands name.
ReplyDeleteYes Christ is what is better, but neither The Reformed Baptist, nor the Presbyterians, Know what it takes and what faith consists of. "Get you out of your country Abraham!" From the word of God! No says Abraham that is a work! repent and be Baptized everyone of You in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost!(Acts 2:38) from the same word of God and then come the excuses because it does not fit your tradition! It is works! It synergism! It was only for the Jews! It is Baptismal regeneration! That last one shows just how ignorant your bunch really are... Every excuse you can think of to ignore God and continue in your man-made man-centered traditions!
ReplyDeleteTF//Baptism is not "circumcision of the heart" - regeneration is. Both Baptism and Circumcision pictured that.//
ReplyDeleteThat is significant in that circumcision of the heart is addressed in both the Old and New Testaments and it is always what God does to His Elect.
It's this circumcision of the heart of both males and females in both the Old and New Testaments that distinguishes the Elect from all others!
What is this guy on about? ^
ReplyDeleteReformed Baptists and Presbyterians don't deny circumcision of the heart (regeneration) took place in the OT and NT or that it is unnecessary for the application of Christ's blood to us.
And how is the fact that eis in Acts 2:38 can mean "because of" instead of "unto" an "excuse" (e.g. Matt. 10:41, 12:41)?
But as for synergism,
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Mlculwell
ReplyDeletejust a historical note to hopefully knock down your claim that Calvinists are the culprits here. It is a fact of History that your oneness issue was raised somtime in the fifth century with a guy named Eutyches (449ad). He was adjudged a heretic and what came out of this was the doctrine of Christ being one person, fully God and fully man, two natures.
Monophysitism came along and was knocked down at the Council of Constantinople (553ad).
Monotheletism came along and was knocked down at the next Council of Constantinople (680ad).
Clearly this issue of the oneness of Christ as you push wasn't a novel idea during Calvin's days but the issue came up quite a bit earlier in the history of the Church.
Calvin,s teachings simply reflect the Truth taught in Scripture.
The thing about Acts 2:38 was centered around the Judaizers and their rejection of Jesus Christ and Peter's clear emphasis was on that issue. As you might remember on that day there were gathered:::>
Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
Act 2:9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."
There may have been Gentiles who also came to this mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit to see but as you can see the emphasis being made here was it was Jews from every nation in Jerusalem who came running to the event and it was to them Peter was speaking those Words that you narrowly focus on, Acts 2:38.
As we read through the book of Acts and beyond "plus" the various places in the Old Testament where we see clear distinctions being made between the Spirit of God, like in Genesis 1:2 forward with the Father and Son, or King David coming before God the "Father" in 1 Chronicles 17/2 Samuel 7 or this in Proverbs 8 where again the Holy Spirit is again personified. Of course there are various place where the Old Testament clearly is talking about Christ Himself. I offer these thought just to cite several places in the Old Testament for your further consideration.
I have to conclude your oneness understanding is flawed and twisted as to the True Nature of God> We see God as being One God in the Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
From what I can gather mlculwell, your doctrine of oneness pentecostalism as in Jesus' Name only, originates from the 2nd Century and Monarchianism and Modalism. Sabellianism and Patripassianism reflects your ideas. Your faith basically teaches Modalism.
ReplyDeleteThese doctrines have historically been knocked down as I said above since the 2nd Century or maybe even earlier.
How do you address this History then and then claim this is Calvin's issue in History?
Jesus shed his blood eis for many for the remission of sins. because your sins were already remitted(Oh consistency the Jewel)Or in your case the inconsistency to make it fit your doctrine.(Matthew 26:28)
ReplyDeleteEis means
Into – 571 times
To -- 282 times
Unto -- 208 times
In -- 131 times
For -- 91 times
On -- 57 times
Toward -- 32 times
That -- 30 times
Against -- 25 times
Upon -- 25 times
At -- 20 times
Among -- 16 times
Concerning -- 5 times
“because of” – 0 times
I took that from herehttp://www.bebaptized.org/eis.htm
Ryan :But as for synergism,
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
What does???? I hope you are not suggesting God willy nilly just delves out salvation? When he gave a gospel to preach and to those who hear and heed the gospel call can be saved? God had mercy to whom he willed To the Jew first and then to the Greek(gentile) who heeds the call of the gospel(Romans 10:13-17)
What a terrible False doctrine you hold! It is you who takes away the sovereignty of God by saying this is not so! You contradict his word! The Jew and the Greek is the world who heed can hear the call and are those to whom God opened the door.
Michael where did you get your false history? Eutyches was not Oneness In fact James Whites trinity was accused of that here recently! Calvin Killed the Oneness Preacher Michael Servetus(AKA Miguel Serveto father of the Modern circulatory system) You clearly again show your ignorance concerning Acts 2:38 and One God
ReplyDelete3 persons are 3 gods like the hindu 3 persons are 3 gods!
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletedead people don't heed calls. Those elected and regenerated then given the gift of Faith because of the Graciousness of Election upon some heed the call to repent.
That's why we see so many die in their sins unrepentant even on their death beds.
I've been witnessed to that horrible thing, seeing some die unrepentant on their death beds.
Gladly too, I've seen some die in Christ and the stark contrast of both realities is obvious.
How do I explain? Where are any Oneness writers in history? Hmmm? Trinitarains killed them and destroyed their writings! You would think a movement so great and large that Tertullain said against Praxeas "that they(Oneness) were the majority of believers and that the economy of 3 in one disturbed them and called them 3 god polytheists!(that is not a direct quote but a paraphrase)
ReplyDeleteYou can call me a liar all you like but think about that? There are no writers of anyone in history as large as that movement was and not a single Oneness writer, but they were most certainly written about in history.
Modalism is not atem I use because trinitarins gave us that name based on and ancient Oneness using the phrase for God:" mode of being"
Here is what Mode means from the dictionary:
noun
1.
a manner of acting or doing; method; way:
modern modes of transportation.
2.
a particular type or form of something:
Heat is a mode of motion.
3.
a designated condition or status, as for performing a task or responding to a problem:
a machine in the automatic mode.
4.
Philosophy.
appearance, form, or disposition taken by a thing, or by one of its essential properties or attributes.
(in the philosophy of Spinoza) one of the nonessential qualifications of God, contingent upon other modes.
Compare attribute (def 9).
Micahel, That is right "dead people do not heed calls" Literal dead people, but people dead in there sins? God allows by opening the door to the Jew first and then to the Greek by the Gospel Call... That takes care of everybody. Is the law of the the seed falling on good or like calvinists bad ground where it gets choked out by false doctrine...Your Calvin doctrine is as thoughtless and careless with God's word as a Box of rocks, hair, and hammers!
ReplyDeletemlculwell,
ReplyDeletewell, apparently my history books and theology professors who taught history are of a different school than yours.
I did not say Eutyches was a "oneness pentecostal" I said the issue of oneness pentecostalism came from a heretical doctrine taught by him in his day. I further went even farther back in history to develop a trend here to refute your claims about Calvin and his false doctrines. Your view of Servetus is also clearly in historical dispute with the facts of History. No is denying he was teaching something else than what he was burned at the stake for. He clearly was being motivated to cause trouble in Geneva even though he was warned not to come there because he would be arrested for his beliefs. I suspect the spirits that motivated him are the same ones motivating you to come in here and cause trouble.
Apparently TFan is a gracious neighbor and a generous guy, for which I have the utmost respect. I wish I could say the same about you?
No it was not my college professors lied all the time! They told me liberal meant freedom. ROTFL!
ReplyDeleteEutyches?
We will find out who believes Eutyches that is trinity all the way!
Which persons was Jesus? Was he the person of man or was he the person of God or was he a mix hybrid? When your creeds say there was no mix? Or was he just a nature? Natures do not die people Die but how about God? Hair, hammer, Rock? Anyone?
I cited two passages in which eis naturally means "because of," which can be synonymous with "for," so your reply is irrelevant.
ReplyDelete"What does???? I hope you are not suggesting God willy nilly just delves out salvation?"
God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. If you disagree, check your Bible.
Hearing God's call is a necessary condition for salvation to be sure, that has nothing to do with for whom the preaching will be effectual.
mlculwell
ReplyDelete// There are no writers of anyone in history as large as that movement was and not a single Oneness writer, but they were most certainly written about in history.//
Well, considering no one but a handful, maybe 500 as Paul writes estimating the few who were followers of Christ at the time, see 1 Corinthians 15, of the many who ever lived since Adam and Eve, to say that doesn't mean anything. Christianity, as you know, was harshly treated and persecution and death was the norm for the first several centuries before Constantine came to power, leaving the Island after his father's death to take the entire Empire for his own rule. So what History teaches us is Christianity started around the time of Acts 2 and grew from there. Then we have great persecutions that have ebbed and waned then waxed great in populations since then increasing and decreasing in populations through the centuries up and until today where we are now seeing another ebb and wane or apostasy emerge again. In the numerical scheme of things, oneness pentecostalism is but a blip on the population landscape scheme since the Resurrection of the Lord to His Throne in Glory. He will finally return from there to here someday, hopefully before I get done writing this comment? Today oneness pentecostals are numerically no different in size as it was back then as you describe that I cite.
But I do admire your tenacity!
Here's something I'd be focused on instead of trying to convince a bunch of Calvinists that history is not on their Biblical side:::>
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ryan said...
ReplyDelete"I cited two passages in which eis naturally means "because of," which can be synonymous with "for," so your reply is irrelevant.
Mlculwell: Um No, your reply is irrelevant! You are making the word for mean because of in every instance exclusively. that is not possible! It cannot mean that in Matthew 26:28 otherwise Jesus shed his blood because our sins were already remitted. Acts 2:38 does not mean because of!
mlculwell:
"What does???? I hope you are not suggesting God willy nilly just delves out salvation?"
God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. If you disagree, check your Bible.
This is why Calvinist are master deceivers.
I do not disagree! For the longest time God had a people; The Jews but then his word says it is also to the Greek(Gentile) You reached back using the example of Pharaoh in the time of God's only people(The Jews) to say God willy nilly disregards his own grace( The very vehicle he has chosen to save) *by preaching* the Gospel to the Jews and the Greeks which leaves out whom now?
Ryan: Hearing God's call is a necessary condition for salvation to be sure, that has nothing to do with for whom the preaching will be effectual.
"The imaginary effectual philosophical call" Don Quixote fighting windmills doctrine!The effectual call is the law of the ground it falls upon as Jesus himself said.
you say God willy nilly makes that choice for us. God gave preachers to preach for nothing.
You also have the very laughable doctrine that God gives you the spiritual Gift of faith without you having the spirit(1st Cor.12:9) When Paul himself refutes your false doctrine in (Acts 19:2) when he meets up with disciples of John the Baptist (And he did not know who they were that is why he asked them questions) he asked have you received the holy Ghost when or since you believed? Refuting your false doctrine that one receives the Spirit automatically when you believe.
God says it is effectual to those heed the law of the good ground versus the bad ground.
Yeah I claim that passage as My own there is nothing to focus on there in Ephesians that causes me alarm!Paul refutes your doctrine when he asked the question have you received the Holy Ghost when or since you believed Letting us know by him asking the very question that no you do not receive it automatically upon belief!(Acts 19:2)
ReplyDeleteNotice Paul did not ask" have you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ?" Would that question not have told him everything he needed to know if your doctrine was the standard of truth in his time? Paul here refutes it with his question! He implied that when asked since you believed?
1st Cor. 6:11 is the one you should be worried about! You were WASHED(BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME)YOU WERE SANCTIFIED (BY THE SPIRIT) you were (Justified ) How ? In the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our God(That is everything Acts 2:38 says!
Almost Every time the bible speaks about faith or belief In scripture it is speaking about Acts 2:38 and not what you tell everyone it is! When we speak about salvation we call it faith or belief we know what the bible means you on other do not, but we have to help you all who do not know that....
mlculwell
ReplyDeletethe irony is glaring.
Eph 4:25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
Eph 4:27 and give no opportunity to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
Eph 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
For someone who wants to represent Jesus and the Holy Spirit I find those Words rather revealing!
"You are making the word for mean because of in every instance exclusively."
ReplyDeleteI never said that, try again. Meaning: address the passages I cited, please.
The point is you are assuming Acts 2:38 must mean baptism is unto rather than because of remission of sin. If it can mean both, the context of Scripture must determine the meaning. And the context of Scripture rejects baptismal regeneration. Do you think Abraham was regenerated by the analogous sign in the OT, circumcision?
"I do not disagree! For the longest time God had a people; The Jews but then his word says it is also to the Greek(Gentile) You reached back using the example of Pharaoh in the time of God's only people(The Jews) to say God willy nilly disregards his own grace( The very vehicle he has chosen to save) *by preaching* the Gospel to the Jews and the Greeks which leaves out whom now?"
The Jews were a type of the elect. Just as God chose the Jews as His people, not on their own merit but because it pleased Him, so too He chooses to now save both Jew and Gentile according to His pleasure, not according to human desire or effort. Scripture is clear.
"The imaginary effectual philosophical call" Don Quixote fighting windmills doctrine!The effectual call is the law of the ground it falls upon as Jesus himself said."
Did He? I thought He said those whom the Father draws will be raised the last day. Or do you think Jesus failed to carry out the will of the Father? Oy, no wonder you have issues with the Trinity.
"you say God willy nilly makes that choice for us. God gave preachers to preach for nothing."
God predestines means as well as ends. You think Jesus will return triumphantly no matter what happens, right? How is that any different from what you accuse of me? Rather, you should believe Jesus will return because of what will happen. The means are a part of God's plan as well as the ends. The whole makes the history of His work, not just the conclusion.
"You also have the very laughable doctrine that God gives you the spiritual Gift of faith without you having the spirit(1st Cor.12:9)"
Nope, that is false. Try a different straw man, Calvinists believe regeneration logically precedes faith.
"God says it is effectual to those heed the law of the good ground versus the bad ground."
Where? Romans 9 says the opposite.
Hey Ryan, focus! Deal with me please? I am not talking "Baptismal regeneration." Making baptism the savior, instead of Jesus! The name Jesus is what remits sin because the name has all power and authority(Acts 4:12) You might want to call the churches of Christ, or the Catholics because it is clear you do not know what Oneness believes or how to deal with it!
ReplyDeleteRyan writes: "you are assuming Acts 2:38 must mean baptism is unto rather than because of remission of sin."
Yeah! Likewise I am sure! You are assuming what you cannot prove! I gave a whole list of what eis means and the one thing it does not mean you want for it to mean so your false doctrine will work and it can remain your man centered false doctrine!
God did not choose Abraham willy Nilly! God chose Abraham to fulfill his purpose and made a a promise by his immutable word, then you add your false tinge and Walla! We have your false doctrine!
No, you believe regeneration comes before faith and God makes yo a believer irregardless of your faith several here have said so. I will gladly grab their posts if you continue in this I have heard many times from Calvinists.
miculwell
ReplyDeleteso, you are saying that these verses DO NOT show the Trinity in any way, right?
Gen 22:10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son.
Gen 22:11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
Gen 22:12 He said, "Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place, "The LORD will provide"; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."
So, you are saying there has to be a GIFT OF FAITH before life in Christ that precedes regeneration?
Then can you explain why we see something different in these Words by Paul?
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
So, in all of Scripture whether old or new you are teaching that God is One, and One Spirit only who came into the world born of a virgin as both God and man? Is that right?
Michael: So, you are saying there has to be a GIFT OF FAITH before life in Christ that precedes regeneration?
ReplyDeleteNo Michael Calvinsts have told me they receive a gift of faith so that they can be saved. That their faith is not really their faith that saves!
No the verses you gave do not prove the trinity! I have no idea how you even God that from that passage..
Yes Jesus was both God and man! God manifest in the flesh.
mlculwell
ReplyDeletejust so I am getting your understanding straight or orthodox, you are saying that it is YOUR FAITH at work in you that saves?
Oh brother, you guys will never learn! No I am saying your faith!
ReplyDeleteGod Opened the door for us to have faith! The Jew and Gentile! It cannot be closed God did the work now he requires our faith that he has allowed.
Jesus could not do many mighty works among the people because of their unbelief.(Matth.13:58) do you see what their own lack their lack faith did? God requires our faith!
That is why I keep bringing up the example of Abraham on of the great heroes of faith! Can you imagine Abraham being told by God:" get you out of your country that I will show and i will make you Father of many nations"? Oh No says Abraham the local Calvinist Church told me I am working for my salvation if I do anything you tell me. That is not father that disobedience.
(Luke 7:9)
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel."
(Luke 8:48)
Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace."
(Luke 17:19)
Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
(Luke 18:42)
Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."
(Luke 7:50)
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
(Matthew 9:22)
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed at that moment.
(Mark 5:34)
He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."
"I am not talking "Baptismal regeneration.""
ReplyDeleteThat's not what you said in your first post, though I understand if you want to backtrack now.
"Yeah! Likewise I am sure! You are assuming what you cannot prove! I gave a whole list of what eis means and the one thing it does not mean you want for it to mean so your false doctrine will work and it can remain your man centered false doctrine!"
No, you gave a whole bunch of verses as to what it can mean, and of those verses, several can (indeed, must) be understood as how I understand it to mean in Acts 2:38. You never dealt with Matthew 10:41 or 12:41, remember?
"God did not choose Abraham willy Nilly!"
Ok, so where does God say why He chose Abraham? God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. This doesn't just apply to Pharaoh, Paul applies it to everyone, Jew and Gentile (9:19-23).
"God chose Abraham to fulfill his purpose and made a a promise by his immutable word, then you add your false tinge and Walla! We have your false doctrine!"
Yes, He made a promise to Abraham. But why not someone else? What did Abraham do to merit God's covenant? Nothing.
"No, you believe regeneration comes before faith and God makes yo a believer irregardless of your faith several here have said so. I will gladly grab their posts if you continue in this I have heard many times from Calvinists."
Regeneration logically comes before faith, so the Spirit indwells us logically prior to faith. We have the Spirit logically prior to faith, contrary to what you said we think.
You seem a bit upset, you should probably calm down a bit before continuing?
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletehuh?
Well, which is it? Your faith believing God's Word of Promise or God's gift of faith that follows His Grace because He chose you mercifully?
It is either you doing something.
Or it is God in you doing something.
Which is it you are saying is doing it, you or God?
"I am not talking "Baptismal regeneration.""
ReplyDeleteRyan:That's not what you said in your first post, though I understand if you want to backtrack now.
What are you talking about? I was very clear that it is the name in baptism that remits sins and not Baptism! Let me be clear Baptism without the name Jesus does nothing! These comment debates are waste of my time! You are all full of jumping to conclusions!
You are calling me a lair and I wrote a blog article on the subject here:http://manuelculwell.blogspot.com/search/label/Baptismal%20Regeneration
You and I are not going any further until you read it and understand what you are talking about!
either we go further or you can remain in your ignorance.
Here is something else for does not mean because of but just go ahead and remain ignorance about that also and see how that turns out for you?You have too many scriptures against you.
ReplyDeleteMichael contradicts himself:" It is either you doing something.
Or it is God in you doing something."
Micahel wrote this also:"Those elected and regenerated then given the gift of Faith."
Mlculwell:Michael highlights here the very false doctrine I accused him of having...
Can you imagine God giving an unrepentant sinners any spiritual gift let alone the the Gift of faith which one of the nine that you after you receive the Holy Spirit and they say before they believe or repent? But that is what he has for doctrine...(1st.Cor.12:9) The gift of faith is over and above saving faith with all these other gifts that come after the gift of the Holy Ghost, as gifts within the bigger package and not every one gets them all! They come at special times for special purpose to build up and encourage the body. The Reformed Know absolutely nothing about the gifts of the spirit versus the gift of the Holy Ghost which are 2 different things gain the Gift of faith is over and above saving faith. I have known for a long time they hold this silly doctrine.
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletewell, why not just answer the simple question?
Are you exercising a Gift of Faith given to you or are you exercising your own natural faith in the Promises of God?
ReplyDeleteThe faith we have is by the grace of God. He opened the door to the Jew first and then to the Greek. It is not the Gift of faith in (1st Cor.12:9)
Sometimes it was the faith of those being healed and sometimes it was the faith of others when Jesus healed.
ReplyDeleteIn the Apostles case, they simply used what they were given! Their great faith in his name. But it was not just faith this time it was the name Jesus coupled with faith(Acts 4:12) The power and authority to cast out devils and heal the sick and remit sins.
Michael, Whose faith was it here?
Did Jesus say your faith?
He opened the door
(Luke 8:48)
Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace."
Whose faith was it here?
Did Jesus say your faith?
He opened the door
(Luke 17:19)
Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
Whose faith was it here?
Did Jesus say your faith?
He opened the door
(Luke 18:42)
Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."
Michael, Whose faith was it here?
Did Jesus say your faith?
He opened the door
(Luke 7:50)
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Michael, Whose faith was it here?
Did Jesus say your faith?
He opened the door
(Matthew 9:22)
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed at that moment.
Michael, Whose faith was it here?
Did Jesus say your faith?
He opened the door!
(Mark 5:34)
He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletefirst mlculwell, I want to thank you for the tone of your last post. It is greatly appreciated that you have toned down your angry wrathful expressive nature in commenting and it seems to me you are now conforming to some verses I posted in here earlier about you being angry and wrathful towards those of us who don't believe the way you do. [Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
Eph 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.]
We can have a disagreement on hermeneutics without getting angry at each other. So I commend you on the tenor you are taking at this time. Thank you!
As for the question you ask after each of your Biblical citations, of course, being a dyed in the wool Monergist, I have to say this about the context each of these verses you cite before asking: "Michael, Whose faith was it here? Did Jesus say your faith?".
I will quote these Words first then make a comment:::>
Joh 17:6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
...
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me.
Joh 17:26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
Before Jesus prayed that way, He qualified Himself in that everything He did wasn't self generated while living fully human on the earth. It is recorded early in the Gospel of John of Him that He said this:::>
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."
Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
break because of length
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletecontinued here:::>
So, to those who had an understanding given to them from the Father who He was and what they could receive from Him we have to conclude the Father was equally moving upon each of them that came to Him and requested from Him something; or, as in the case of the woman who in the crowd simply believed if she touched Him her health would be restored she made no request just exercised the Faith she was given and received from Him what she sought from Him. This is what brings honor to God, that is, when we believe He is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. When we come to Him to meet our need we are honoring God, the first commandment.
One doesn't naturally believe another can do that without first having a revelation about them and their abilities to meet their need.
Therefore the Faith each of them had and demonstrated, exercised, was given to them first to use and indeed they used it freely and I believe motivated by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to believe they would receive what they asked for. Joh 16:24 Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
For Jesus to acknowledge that it was THEIR Faith does not imply it was their original faith they were exercising, like the natural faith we use everyday, like sitting in a chair without thinking about it collapsing when we do. We see the chair and have sat down in chairs many many times before and none of them collapsed so we don't think twice this time either that this time it will collapse. We simply sit down on the chair.
The Apostle Paul said as much about this Divine Faith once delivered to the Saints this way when he writes about "THE" Gospel he was preaching. He came to the same revelation and said this about the Gospel, that it was "MY GOSPEL":::>
Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—
Rom 16:27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
So as Paul writes there I would say each of the citations from Scripture you give as an example of "their" faith is indeed NOW their Faith, Divine Faith, because what preceded it becoming theirs was as Paul wrote:::>
"...according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—...".
We see something similar that Paul writes here:::>
Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
Rom 1:6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,
I hope that enlightens you some as I have tried to thoughtfully respond to your questions?
First of all, no, you did not sway me in any way! My indignation against your false doctrine! The word tells us to be angry and sin not! God hates False doctrine, so I hate false man centered doctrine.. God in his word tells me too! We can have a discussion about doctrines withoutshowing hatred toward One another. I do not hate nor have I sown you hatred ad how you got that through these posts is your imagination! With that said: You are doing no one any favors by spreading your doctrines!
ReplyDeleteI see that these comment box debates are fruitless.. This is nothing but you misunderstanding everything I say so .. You did not give a single passage of scripture that says anything you said. I see you have give passages with what you think thy say but i have listened long enough to Calvinists to know no one is going to change your minds. I believe that is the strength of the false doctrine that you have In Calvinism it is a strong deception. You did not give one single passage that refuted what I said about God already opening the door to the Jew first and then to the Greek! This is the only way God makes you a believer! How many times does he have to do it? You do not even believe he opened the door the first time to the Jew and the Greek when It says he did! You are going to have to go back to the drawing board ad find something else other than whit you gave.
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletemy apologies then!
You state:
//You did not give one single passage that refuted what I said about God already opening the door to the Jew first and then to the Greek!//
First, what is it you are trying to say when you say God "already opening the door to the Jew first"?
That puzzles me.
When I read Genesis 24 I see the Faith I'm pointing to and don't see any "firsts" among this crowd?
Here's a man, a servant of Abraham, who was living in the same Faith as Abraham.
So, again, please explain what you are talking about when you talk about to the Jews first regarding Faith?
mlculwell
ReplyDeleteHere's the Greek for the following words from Ephesians 4:31 and you mean to say you have not fallen prey in any way to them in your comments on any of these threads where some of us have interacted with you and then you want us to believe you that you have the Spirit of Christ anointing you and guiding you to make the comments the way you do when you disagree with our point of view:
bitterness,G4088 πικρία
pikria
pik-ree'-ah
From G4089; acridity (especially poison), literally or figuratively: - bitterness.
wrath,G2372 θυμός
thumos
thoo-mos'
From G2380; passion (as if breathing hard): - fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare G5590.
anger,G3709 ὀργή
orgē
or-gay'
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
clamour,G2906 κραυγή
kraugē
krow-gay'
From G2896; an outcry (in notification, tumult or grief): - clamour, cry (-ing).
evil speaking,G988 βλασφημία
blasphēmia
blas-fay-me'-ah
From G989; vilification (especially against God): - blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.
malice:G2549 κακία
kakia
kak-ee'-ah
From G2556; badness, that is, (subjectively) depravity, or (actively) malignity, or (passively) trouble: - evil, malice (-iousness), naughtiness, wickedness.
Also, I'd like to remind you of these Words of wisdom too:::>
Tit 3:1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,
Tit 3:2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Michael, I do not hate you. How many times must I tell you this? I hate your false doctrine because God tells me in his word to do so.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am not going to fall prey to is your trying to be morally superior.
Here let another Calvinist show you to hate false doctrine and sin is a Godly virtue! We cannot hate people and I do not hate you but I am not going to love your false doctrine or be gentile toward A doctrine that is deception.
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletewas all that a response to this?
You state:
//You did not give one single passage that refuted what I said about God already opening the door to the Jew first and then to the Greek!//
First, what is it you are trying to say when you say God "already opening the door to the Jew first"?
That puzzles me.
When I read Genesis 24 I see the Faith I'm pointing to and don't see any "firsts" among this crowd?
Here's a man, a servant of Abraham, who was living in the same Faith as Abraham.
So, again, please explain what you are talking about when you talk about to the Jews first regarding Faith?
When I am talking about the *Jews first* they were Gods elect or chosen.Not willy nilly as The Calvinist false doctrines claim . Rather, they were chosen to fulfill God's purposes. Many are called but few are chosen.(Matth.22:14) That passage refutes your false doctrine. Now why would God do such a thing? Call them and not choose them? Is God such a failure? The scriptures teach we are chosen in him before the foundation of the world.(Not as individuals but we are chosen in him by the gospel call which after we obey (Acts 5:32 we are given the Holy Ghost.) Your doctrine makes God a failure! God cannot keep what he calls! That is you doctrine! What about Judas?(John 17:12)
ReplyDeleteWhile I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;(Judas) that the scripture might be fulfilled.We are chosen him by the Gospel call if it falls on the right ground where the word of god is not choked. You all twist John 6:44 without ever reading and trying to understand what John 6:44 where no man can come to the Father but by me which is talking about the Gospel message in verse 45 they and we shall all be taught of God through the word not by some mystical magical hook being put in our jaws before we ever existed what a silly doctrine that is!
"You are all full of jumping to conclusions!"
ReplyDeleteOkay then, sorry about that. In that case, the points of your posts are honestly hard to follow. When you yell "It is Baptismal regeneration!" in a post calling out Reformed Christians who don't believe in baptismal regeneration (lol?) and then further argue that baptism is unto or for the purpose of the remission of sins, forgive me if I find that hard to follow if you're not yourself proposing it to be true. Otherwise its mentioning appears irrelevant.
"Here is something else for does not mean because of but just go ahead and remain ignorance about that also and see how that turns out for you?You have too many scriptures against you."
It can mean because of, I didn't say it had to mean that. Once again, read the passages I cited in my first post. I've asked you several times to address those now, what's the issue?
The reason I had to talk about Baptism in Jesus name *for* the remission of sins versus your false view of for meaning *unto* instead of saying what it means was necessary to get you to focus upon our first problem. We have to deal with this one problem at a time. My first argument still stands! *The name* in water Baptism is what remits the sin! Not water Baptism alone,but water baptism is necessary because it is new testament circumcision of the heart made without hands (A spiritual thing happens.)
ReplyDeleteThe name invoked is for the remission of sins, The name cannot be unto or because your sins are already remitted. The Newborn Jewish child was named and circumcised on the eighth day after their birth(*8 is the first day of the week Luke 1:59)
The bride the church Takes the name of her one Husband Jesus. Who is the brides husband? The trinity? Or Jesus? Jesus is the bridegroom of the bride who takes one name!
mlculwell
ReplyDeletenone of this makes sense to me:::>
//When I am talking about the *Jews first* they were Gods elect or chosen.Not willy nilly as The Calvinist false doctrines claim . Rather, they were chosen to fulfill God's purposes. Many are called but few are chosen.(Matth.22:14) That passage refutes your false doctrine. Now why would God do such a thing? Call them and not choose them? Is God such a failure? The scriptures teach we are chosen in him before the foundation of the world.(Not as individuals but we are chosen in him by the gospel call which after we obey (Acts 5:32 we are given the Holy Ghost.) Your doctrine makes God a failure! God cannot keep what he calls! That is you doctrine! What about Judas?(John 17:12)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;(Judas) that the scripture might be fulfilled.We are chosen him by the Gospel call if it falls on the right ground where the word of god is not choked. You all twist John 6:44 without ever reading and trying to understand what John 6:44 where no man can come to the Father but by me which is talking about the Gospel message in verse 45 they and we shall all be taught of God through the word not by some mystical magical hook being put in our jaws before we ever existed what a silly doctrine that is!//
I'm not following your logic here or the basis for some if not all of what you are asserting.
FIRST:
mlculwell:::> When I am talking about the *Jews first* they were Gods elect or chosen.Not willy nilly as The Calvinist false doctrines claim .
define what willy nilly means in a doctrine of Calvin. How does John Calvin embrace "Jews first" and what does it mean willy nilly to you? What are you referring to here?
SECOND:
mlculwell:::> Rather, they were chosen to fulfill God's purposes.
Are you saying John Calvin teaches THERE IS NO PURPOSE for the Jews?
Again, what doctrine did John Calvin teach that says or implies that?
THIRD:
mlculwell:::> Many are called but few are chosen.(Matth.22:14) That passage refutes your false doctrine.
Again I apologize but I just am not following you here. What doctrine are you referring to that John Calvin taught this refers to Mat. 22:14?
mlculwell,
ReplyDeletefinishing up:::>
FOURTH:
mlculwell:::> Now why would God do such a thing? Call them and not choose them? Is God such a failure? The scriptures teach we are chosen in him before the foundation of the world.(Not as individuals but we are chosen in him by the gospel call which after we obey (Acts 5:32 we are given the Holy Ghost.)
Again, no, God is not a failure. I believe whoever God calls He chooses and the Scripture establishes that. What doctrine did John Calvin teach that is contrary to this truth? Is there a particular argument Calvinists make John Calvin made that denies Election by foreknowledge?
FIFTH:
mlculwell:::> Your doctrine makes God a failure! God cannot keep what he calls! That is you doctrine!
Again "what false doctrine" are you referring to? Can you cite it? I'm not aware of any doctrine that teaches God is a failure or "makes" God a failure?
God certainly keeps what He calls. When did John Calvin teach that God doesn't keep what He calls? Please cite the doctrine you have in mind that causes you to make reference to it that way?
SIXTH:
mlculwell:::> What about Judas?(John 17:12)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;(Judas) that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Ok, so you believe or were taught John Calvin treats Judas differently than those verses? Where does John Calvin do that? What doctrine does he teach contrary to John 17:12?
SEVENTH:
mlculwell:::> We are chosen him by the Gospel call if it falls on the right ground where the word of god is not choked. You all twist John 6:44 without ever reading and trying to understand what John 6:44 where no man can come to the Father but by me which is talking about the Gospel message in verse 45 they and we shall all be taught of God through the word not by some mystical magical hook being put in our jaws before we ever existed what a silly doctrine that is!
This one is especially difficult to understand what your point is in making it? Can you cite the "mystical magical hook being put in our jaws"? What would that be? How is that taught? Can you cite where John Calvin teaches that God puts mystical magical hooks in people's jaws to twist the meaning of John 6:44 and 45?
Thanks for being patient as we work through this!
Ryan, it is all right there to deal with... If you get something wrong, I will let you know... I am not going to elaborate any further when I have given plenty for you to deal with in these last two days.
ReplyDelete"water baptism is necessary because it is new testament circumcision of the heart made without hands..."
ReplyDelete...so baptismal regeneration after all. Lol.
Nothing you're saying is relevant to my points against this thus far - neither on baptism nor synergism. Christian baptism occurs in the name of Jesus. Ok? So how is that relevant to my points that Acts 2:38 doesn't necessarily imply remission of sin happens after said baptism given the range of Scriptural meanings of eis? I gave to 2 passages showing this in my first comment.
Ryan, you are funny! You cannot deal with what I say. The name in water baptism remits sin. Not water Baptism and for sure your trinity Baptism does absolutely nothing but get one wet! You do not know what to do with a doctrine you have not known before, that your false doctrine can deal with. You gave nothing for me to deal with in your 2 passages that is why I have ignored them!
ReplyDeleteThe nearest antecedent to the phrase:" for the remission of sins" is the name Jesus Christ.(Acts 4:12) the power and authority we are given to remit sins.(John 20:23) Jesus said whose soever sins you remit they are remitted unto them. How can one remit another's sins, when we have no authority to do so? But we do in the name in water baptism.
Again the new born male Child was named and circumcised the eighth day after their birth.(Luke 1:59) The eighth day is significant because that leads back to the first day of the week a new beginning. The Baptism is the circumcision(Not regeneration) that must be coupled with the name Jesus or it is neither! But this is not regeneration either together as Jesus himself said In John 3:5 you must e born again of the water and of the spirit or you cannot see the kingdom of God.
You cannot have one or the other you must have both or you have none!
If only the so called Covenant of Grace had a Biblical basis.
ReplyDelete"The Reformed covenant" is not the covenant of Grace of the scriptures it is something you think is! So yeah, your comment is correct! If only!
ReplyDelete