Tuesday, November 10, 2009

Clerical Celibacy Rebuttal - Extremely Short Form

Proverbs 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

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Published by Turretinfan to the Glory of God, at 2:02 PM

10 comments:

Jennie said...

Amen :)

Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:05:00 PM
Viisaus said...

Like the ban on bowing to carved images, this teaching was only for the Old Covenant, and was made obsolete by the Incarnation...

(or so would the RC semi-Marcionites say.)

Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:48:00 PM
Turretinfan said...

I suppose they might try to argue something like that.

Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:48:00 PM
orthodox said...

Rebuttal: extremely short form:

1Cor. 7:38 he who gives his own daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.

Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:17:00 AM
Turretinfan said...

Answer to the rebuttal:

1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:32:00 PM
orthodox said...

And what...? You don't like Paul's judgement?

Friday, November 13, 2009 2:09:00 AM
Turretinfan said...

Actually, that's the wrong answer, Orthodox. The correct answer is:

1 Corinthians 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

But a good reason you didn't provide that is that Paul's judgment relates not to something having moral value but prudential value.

-TurretinFan

Friday, November 13, 2009 2:07:00 PM
Joe Heschmeyer said...

TurretinFan,

Even if everything you just said in response to orthodox was right, and Paul was only providing prudential (and not moral) advice, are you assuming he didn't know about the existence of Proverbs 18:22?

It seems that Paul is quite comfortable saying despite whatever you read Proverbs 18:22 to say that celibacy is desirable: eunuchs for the Kingdom, and whatnot.

But in any case, Catholics absolutely affirm the value of marriage, sex, children, the whole thing. We also think that food is a glorious gift from God, and yet that some are called to fast. The entire idea is that we're offering up something good. In this, it's similar to the Nazarites in the Old Testament.

And Viisaus, semi-Marcionites? I suppose any stick is good enough to beat the Church these days, but this one is especially bizarre. We've got a priesthood, we read the Old Testament in nearly every Mass, you rarely see a Catholic stand-alone New Testament, and so on. A huge number of Catholic teachings are explained with reference to both the New and Old Testament: the Eucharist and Passover, the priesthood and Korah's rebelling, etc. The normal criticism is that we're stuck in the Old Testament... now we're getting criticized for not valuing it enough? If you knew anything about what the Marcionites actually taught, you'd realize how foolish that comparison is.

Thursday, November 19, 2009 4:42:00 AM
Turretinfan said...

"Even if everything you just said in response to orthodox was right, and Paul was only providing prudential (and not moral) advice, are you assuming he didn't know about the existence of Proverbs 18:22?"

a) No, I'm not assuming that.

b) Is there any doubt that he's not providing moral advice?

Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:25:00 PM
Joe Heschmeyer said...

I'm saying that even prudential advice can't contradict morality, so for Paul to be able to say, "celibacy is desirable," he can't be arguing (even prudentially) against morality.

The Catholic Church doesn't say you're *less moral* if you marry, and clerical celibacy is a discipline, not a dogma - about 20% of Catholic priests are married, if memory serves (given the large number of married priests outside the Latin Rite, plus a handful of Latin Rite married converts). It's all a matter of prudential judgment.

Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:45:00 PM

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