Friday, September 18, 2020

Rebuttal Thoughts - Romans 9 Debate

These will not make a lot of sense without the context of the debate, and I may pull this post shortly.

The main counter-point to consider is this: what does God take credit for?  The short answer: everything.  Remember how all things work together for good to those who are the called?  The same point is bookended at the end of Romans 11.


Romans 9:14 - Jewish objector or Arminian Objector

Actually, it's neither.  It's a Roman objector.  That said, it's more important what the objection is, and what's behind it, as well as how it's answered.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

What's the thrust of the objection? The thrust of the objection is that God is showing favoritism.  The answer is, it's not unjust because God is the one who decides these things.  Paul doesn't back away from the claim - he doubles down on it.

What about the claim that what the Jews got wrong was confusing law and promise? Well, is that what Paul answers? Not here.  Instead, what God answers is the challenge to his righteousness for picking some. The answer is: God can do what God wants to do.


Romans 9:15-16 Salvation vs. Unconditional Individual Election

It is a false dichotomy, since Election is what leads to salvation, as we've previously established.  Moreover, it is a consideration of things ex ante - namely from before they occur, as especially comes out in vs. 17.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Notice as well that when it comes to the objection about "who has resisted God's will," how would that mesh with the supposed thread about confusing law and promise? It wouldn't.  

It does, however, align with preceding point properly understood about God's authority to do what God wants.

Thus, when God makes the pottery illustration it is to affirm his absolute right to do with mankind as God wishes.

Romans 9:17-23 Hardening vs. Unconditional Reprobation

Once again, we are dealing in false dichotomy.  Also, there is an asymmetry between election and reprobation that the heading does not reflect.  Even setting that aside, since reprobation is the source of the hardening - in other words God takes credit for it - the dichotomy is false.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

9:24  οὓς καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ἡμᾶς οὐ μόνον ἐξ Ἰουδαίων ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐξ ἐθνῶν

What does the "ek" there mean? It's that the calling is not universal, it is particular.  And that connects us back to the previous discussions.

As a side note, I do find it interesting how often non-Calvinists will go to Jeremiah 18 simply because it also mentions a potter and clay.

The similarities and differences chart was interesting, but missed the main point.

"Although willing" as concessive? 

9:22  εἰ δὲ θέλων ὁ θεὸς ἐνδείξασθαι τὴν ὀργὴν καὶ γνωρίσαι τὸ δυνατὸν αὐτοῦ ἤνεγκεν ἐν πολλῇ μακροθυμίᾳ σκεύη ὀργῆς κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν

This seems to be based on the English use of "I'm willing to," as distinct from the Greek use of thelo.



Exegetical Thoughts on Romans 9:14-33

Romans 9:14-33, gets us into the meat of the tangent Paul is providing. Remember that in Romans 8, we saw Paul set forth the idea of God's unbreakable love.  In Romans 9:1-13, we saw Paul beginning to address the objection that God's love broke or failed as applied to the Israelites. Paul's response was to deny the objection and assert that instead God chose some of Israel rather than other.

This leads us to the objections that are always raised against God's sovereignty and unconditional election.  The first objection is that there is some kind of injustice with God.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 

Paul answers this objection by describing God's love as mercy, while denying that is based on human merit.  This is the very definition of unconditional election.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 

Notice that God takes all the credit and places all the determination of God's choice in God.  God does not simply say, "it is not by running, or by willing," God says is it is not of him who wills or him who runs.  Yes, in Greek "him" is not a separate word, but is conveyed by the verb conjugation.  Nevertheless, what is the bigger point is that it is not of that person, but of God who shows mercy.

Paul then presents the point negatively:

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thus, God takes credit for mercy and also for hardening.  This leads to one of the most common objections to so-called determinism:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

If God shows mercy to some and hardens others, how is that fair?

Paul responds:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul's analogy of choice is to compare us to pottery, with God as the potter.  If there is one thing that does not have "libertarian free will," it is a pot.  People sometimes mock the doctrines of grace by saying that turn humans into robots that cannot resist God's will, but simply follow their programming.  There weren't robots in Paul's day (that we know of), but pots are - if anything - a step below them.  Paul could have used a sheep analogy as is often used elsewhere in Scripture, but instead the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to compare us to pottery.

There was Scriptural precedent for this.  Isaiah 64:8, as part of a longer prayer, describes Israel as the clay and God as the potter.  Jeremiah 18 also use a pottery analogy. Psalm 2:9, Isaiah 30:14, and Jeremiah 19:11 compare people to pottery in the context of destruction. Lamentations 4:2  

But in fact, this is a quotation from Isaiah 29:16.

Isa 29:15-16

Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

We see the same point Paul is making in the intertestamental Jewish book of Wisdom (aka Wisdom of Solomon 15:7:

Wisdom of Solomon 15:7 For the potter, tempering soft earth, fashioneth every vessel with much labour for our service: yea, of the same clay he maketh both the vessels that serve for clean uses, and likewise also all such as serve to the contrary: but what is the use of either sort, the potter himself is the judge.

Likewise, a similar point is made in another intertestamental Jewish book, Ecclesiasticus 33:13:

Ecclesiasticus 33:13 As the clay is in the potter's hand, to fashion it at his pleasure: so man is in the hand of him that made him, to render to them as liketh him best.

It seems apparent to me that the authors of Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus were drawing on the inspired analogy in Isaiah and elsewhere to affirm God's absolute sovereignty over humanity.

In any event, however, the point Paul is making is the same.  God decides what use each person is put to: whether they are put to the use of being vessels of mercy or whether they are put to the purpose of being vessels of destruction, it is all up to God.  It's not as though one lump of clay is more suited to one than the other, or as though God forsees what he will make of the lump and makes it that way because he forsaw what He would do (what an absurdity that would be!).

Paul confirms that God is indeed exercising his sovereignty, that God prophesied he would do this, and that this extends both to the salvation of the Gentile and the falling away of the Jews:

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Notice that God's love is back in the picture "beloved, which was not beloved."

Notice that God is taking credit for the change: "he will finish the work" "a short work will the Lord make upon the earth" and "the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed".  This also fits well with the unconditional election mentioned again regarding the remnant in Romans 11.

Paul then begins to introduce salvation by faith, as distinct from works of the law.  Paul introduces the questions 

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In Romans 10, Paul will go on to explain the principle of salvation by faith as distinct from obedience to the law.  Then Paul will encounter the objection that everyone hears the gospel, but not everyone has faith.  He will end up, in Romans 11, giving God the credit for this as well.

It's important to recognize this overall trajectory.  Salvation is by grace, through faith. At the same time, God is still taking credit.  God laid a stumblingstone, not a stairway or a ladder.

Some of the next discussion about faith may seem to place things back on man.

Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται

Literally, for all those calling upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul makes it sound so easy that the question about Israel comes back:

Rom 10:18

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Then Paul increases the temperature of the discussion:

Rom 10:19-21

But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

This leads to Paul reiterating the point raised earlier in the beginning of Romans 9 and Romans 10 at the start of Romans 11:

Rom 11:1-6 

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Notice that contrary to what we may hear from those who object to the doctrines of grace, they were not the remnant because they didn't bow the knee, they didn't bow the knee because they were remnant - a remnant according to God's choice by grace, not works.   

This leads to Paul concluding Romans 11 in these words:

Rom 11:25-36

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.¶

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The last portion is especially reminiscent of Isaiah:

 Isa 40:13-17

Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.