Monday, March 01, 2010

Unloading 17 More Loaded Questions for "Bible Christians" 17/17

Steve Ray has a list of more than 35 loaded Questions for "Bible Christians" (quotation marks his)(link to the whole list). I originally planned to respond to just 35 of them, but the series seems to have been of interest, so in this extension, I'm responding to three more numbered questions in his list, plus fourteen "bonus questions" that take the form "Where does the Bible say ... ." I'm trying to provide the answers in the same common format as the original series, for easy reference. This is number 17/17.

Where does the Bible . . .
. . . tell us Jesus Christ is of the same substance of Divinity as God the Father?

Simple Answer(s):

1) The use of the exact phrase of "substance of Divinity" is not found in Scripture.

2) There are many verses that prove that Jesus is God (in the sense of being the only Lord God). One of the more obvious examples is the following:

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Important Qualification(s):

There are many treatises that examine this important Scriptural doctrine in much greater depth. I've tried to give a simple and concise answer, but many writers from ancient times down to modern times, have given much greater and more comprehensive exegeses of Scripture to thoroughly demonstrate this same truth.

- TurretinFan


M. R. Burgos said...


Forgive me, but from Jude vs4 I am unable to see an explicit identification of deity. I am a Trinitarian and reformed, and am genuinely asking. Is it the connection with the use of Lord in the NT and the LORD of the OT?

Turretinfan said...

Michael: "denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

I'm not sure whether it is as plain in English as it is in Greek, but the entire phrase above refers to one person - both "only Lord God" and "our Lord" modify "Jesus Christ."

BJ Buracker said...

Actually, TF, you're right, this is far clearer in Greek. Then English translation here obscures it. It makes it appear that "The only Lord God" and "our Lord Jesus Christ" are not appositional. They clearly are in Greek. Also, the word "God" is not extant in the text at all.

A better translation is "And who deny our only master and Lord, Jesus Christ" (cf. ESV).

I reproduce the whole Greek here (without breathings or accents).

και τον μονον δεσποτην και κυριον ημων ιησουν χριστον αρνουμενοι.

This text is, thus, pretty clear that Christ is, in fact, God.


Stupid Scholar

Turretinfan said...

There is actually a textual variant on the verse (it doesn't change the meaning of the text). BJ has provided the critical text. The received text (and the majority text as well) have the word "God" that the critical text omits.

και τον μονον δεσποτην θεον και κυριον ημων ιησουν χριστον αρνουμενοι

BJ Buracker said...


I don't have my critical text with me. I left it at home for once, since I don't have a class I'm taking today. I'll look into that, when I get the chance. Thanks for the clarification.

Still, I think your original point is made. Although grammatically, the two are not necessarily appositional here, the placement of ημων before ιησουν χριστον makes it appear that it goes with both μονον δεσποτην (θεον) and κυριον. Hence apposition and christological theism are both maintained.

I would posit that if were referring to 2 different individuals, then the verse would have read:

και τον μονον δεσποτην (θεον) και ιησουν χριστον κυριον ημων αρνουμενοι (and those who deny the one master [God] and Jesus Christ, our Lord).

Since the grammar is techically ambiguous here, context also must be used. This again supports TF's original claim of showing the divinity of Christ, especially v. 5. The entire letter is about Jesus, not God the Father.

Stupid Scholar

BJ Buracker said...


There is actually a textual variant on the verse (it doesn't change the meaning of the text). BJ has provided the critical text. The received text (and the majority text as well) have the word "God" that the critical text omits.

Just checked an apparatus here on campus, and I confirm this on all accounts. Thanks again for the clarification. I would have missed this.

Stupid Scholar

Andrew Suttles said...

TF -

Any chance you'd be placing your 35 answers and bonus answers in a PDF for easy downloading and quick reference?

Turretinfan said...

yes that's the plan

Ryanhales said...

John 17:5 It's clear as Day, Jesus asks the father to restore him to the Glory which they (Father and Son) Shared before the world was. Isaiah I think in chaper 44 says God the father will not share his glory with anyone else!!! Also John 1:1 And the word was God, Jesue is clearly the word see verse 14!!

Ryanhales said...

Oh yeah check out James White's website He has a great study on the purpose and meaning of "ego eimi" That is I am in english, Jesus says this around 17 times in the gosple of John. James argues that this is the strongest way in jewish custom to claim divinity.