Thanksgiving Verses - Part 8

In the following passage we see the ark being brought into the temple of Solomon. We see Jeduthun making an appearance again together with Asaph and Heman. The Psalm that they are singing could be one of several Psalms. It could be Psalm 106, which we've already seen. Alternatively, it could be Psalm 107, 118, or 136, all of are thanksgiving psalms and all of which are provided below.

2 Chronicles 5
Thus all the work that Solomon made for the house of the LORD was finished: and Solomon brought in all the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the instruments, put he among the treasures of the house of God.

Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion. Wherefore all the men of Israel assembled themselves unto the king in the feast which was in the seventh month.

And all the elders of Israel came; and the Levites took up the ark. And they brought up the ark, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and all the holy vessels that were in the tabernacle, these did the priests and the Levites bring up. Also king Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel that were assembled unto him before the ark, sacrificed sheep and oxen, which could not be told nor numbered for multitude.

And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims: for the cherubims spread forth their wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above. And they drew out the staves of the ark, that the ends of the staves were seen from the ark before the oracle; but they were not seen without. And there it is unto this day.

There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt.

And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place: (for all the priests that were present were sanctified, and did not then wait by course: also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets:) it came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

Psalm 107
O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; and gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses. And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.

Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.

Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder. Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death. Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses. He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing. They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; these see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep. For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof. They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble. They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits' end. Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses. He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still. Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.

Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders. He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground; a fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein. He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings. And there he maketh the hungry to dwell, that they may prepare a city for habitation; and sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase. He blesseth them also, so that they are multiplied greatly; and suffereth not their cattle to decrease. Again, they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction, and sorrow. He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way. Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock. The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth. Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD.

Psalm 118

O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever. Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever. Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever. Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place. The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me? The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me. It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them. They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me.

The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: this gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.

Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 136
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 12

I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's concluding remarks. His own words are as follows:

This whole post by TF as far as I am concerned was the real flimsy flam. Cutting and pasting quotes out of their historical context, as well as their original intent, seems to be the only play these guys can come up with. All it takes is a bit of looking into whom the writer was addressing, and for what reason he was addressing them, to see that all of these quotes support the Catholic position, not the "Reformed" apologist. It is quite amusing to see Turretin Fan's pals going over and congratulating him on this post, all highfiving each other as if he had just defended their position successfully. In every one of these quotes that refers to the ease of understanding the Scriptures it is understood by the author to be within the Church, with valid apostolic succession. Somehow Turretin Fan thinks he is reading them from within that context that these Fathers all attest to. I beg to differ.

I answer:

We've now seen each of Mr. Bellisario's attempts to respond to the quotations presented. We've demonstrated that he failed to undermine any of the quotations provided, and that he had to resort to building straw men in order to have any success at all. Those straw men were, in some cases, defeated. Nevertheless, the original point - that the church fathers confessed that much of Scripture is clear - remains.

And we could augment our list with many more quotations:

Alexander of Alexandria:

Oh, the impious arrogance! Oh, the immeasurable madness! Oh, the vainglory befitting those that are crazed! Oh, the pride of Satan which has taken root in their unholy souls. The religious perspicuity of the ancient Scriptures caused them no shame, nor did the consentient doctrine of our colleagues concerning Christ keep in check their audacity against Him. Their impiety not even the demons will bear, who are ever on the watch for a blasphemous word uttered against the Son.

- Alexander of Alexandria, Epistle to Alexander of Constantinople, Section 10

Ambrose:

Who, then, would dare to deny the oneness of Name, when he sees the oneness of the working. But why should I maintain the unity of the Name by arguments, when there is the plain testimony of the Divine Voice that the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is one? For it is written: "Go, baptize all nations in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." [Matthew 28:19] He said, "in the Name," not "in the Names." So, then, the Name of the Father is not one, that of the Son another, and that of the Holy Spirit another, for God is one; the Names are not more than one, for there are not two Gods, or three Gods.

- Ambrose, On the Holy Spirit, Book I, Chapter 13, Section 132

Aphrahat:

So I, who have written these things, even if some of the words do not agree with what other speakers have said, yet say this; that those sages have spoken well, yet it seemed good to me to speak thus. And if any man shall speak and demonstrate to me about any matter, I will receive instruction from him without contention. Everyone who reads the sacred scriptures, both former and latter, in both covenants, and reads with persuasion, will learn and teach. But if he strives about anything that he does not understand, his mind does not receive teaching. But if he finds words that are too difficult for him, and he does not understand their force, let him say thus, "Whatsoever is written is written well, but I have not attained to the understanding of it." And if he shall ask about the matters that are too hard for him of wise and discerning men who inquire into doctrine, then, when ten wise men shall speak to him in ten different ways about one matter, let him accept that which pleases him; and if any please not him, let him not scorn the sages; for the word of God is like a pearl, that has a beautiful appearance on whatever side you turn it.

- Aphrahat, Demonstration 22, Section 26

Archelaus:

This, therefore, is the word of censure upon the children of Israel, because they read Moses and yet do not understand him, and refuse to turn to the Lord; for it is He that was prophesied of by Moses as about to come. This, then, is the veil which was placed upon the face of Moses, and this also is his testament; for he says in the law: "A prince shall not be wanting from Judah, nor a leader from his thighs, until He come whose he is; and He will be the expectation of the nations: who shall bind His foal unto the vine, and His ass's colt unto the choice vine; He shall wash His garments in wine, and His clothes in the blood of grapes; His eyes shall be suffused with wine, and His teeth white with milk; "and so on. Moreover, he indicated who He was, and whence He was to come. For he said: "The Lord God will raise up unto you, a Prophet from among your brethren, like me: unto Him hearken." Now it is plain that this cannot be understood to have been said of Jesus the son of Nun. For there is nothing of this circumcision found in him. After him, too, there have still been kings from Judah; and consequently this prophecy is far from being applicable to him. And this is the veil which is on Moses; for it was not, as some among the unlearned perhaps fancy, any piece of linen cloth, or any skin that covered his face. But the apostle also takes care to make this plain to us, when he tells us that the veil is put on in the reading of the Old Testament, inasmuch as they who are called Israel from olden time still look for the coming of Christ, and perceive not that the princes have been wanting from Judah, and the leaders from his thighs; as even at present we see them in subjection to kings and princes, and paying tribute to these, without having any power left to them either of judgment or of punishment, such as Judah certainly had, for after he had condemned Thamar, he was able also to justify her. "But you will also see your life hang (in doubt) before your eyes."

- Archelaus, Acts of the Disputation with Manes, Section 43

Basil the Great:

The object of the apostle in thus writing was not to introduce the diversity of nature, but to exhibit the notion of Father and of Son as unconfounded. That the phrases are not opposed to one another and do not, like squadrons in war marshalled one against another, bring the natures to which they are applied into mutual conflict, is perfectly plain from the passage in question. The blessed Paul brings both phrases to bear upon one and the same subject, in the words "of him and through him and to him are all things." [Romans 11:36] That this plainly refers to the Lord will be admitted even by a reader paying but small attention to the meaning of the words.

- Basil the Great, Of the Holy Spirit, Chapter 5, Section 7

Clement of Alexandria:

But if from any creature they received in any way whatever the seeds of the Truth, they did not nourish them; but committing them to a barren and rainless soil, they choked them with weeds, as the Pharisees revolted from the Law, by introducing human teachings—the cause of these being not the Teacher, but those who choose to disobey. But those of them who believed the Lord's advent and the plain teaching of the Scriptures, attain to the knowledge of the law; as also those addicted to philosophy, by the teaching of the Lord, are introduced into the knowledge of the true philosophy: "For the oracles of the Lord are pure oracles, melted in the fire, tried in the earth, purified seven times." Just as silver often purified, so is the just man brought to the test, becoming the Lord's coin and receiving the royal image.

- Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 6, Chapter 7

Clement of Rome:

You are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation. Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit.

- Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 45

Cyprian of Carthage:

Nor does the wickedness of the impious ever rise up against the name we bear, without immediate vengeance from above attending it. To say nothing of the memories of ancient times, and not to recur with wordy commemoration to frequently repeated vengeance on behalf of God's worshippers, the instance of a recent matter is sufficient to prove that our defence, so speedily, and in its speed so powerfully, followed of late in the ruins of things, in the destruction of wealth, in the waste of soldiers, and the diminution of forts. Nor let any one think that this occurred by chance, or think that it was fortuitous, since long ago Scripture has laid down, and said. "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord." [Romans 12:19] And again the Holy Spirit forewarns, and says, "Say not, I will avenge myself of mine enemy, but wait on the Lord, that He may be your help." [Proverbs 20:22] Whence it is plain and manifest, that not by our means, but for our sakes, all those things are happening which come down from the anger of God.

- Cyprian of Carthage, Treatise 5, Section 17

Cyril of Alexandria:

All things are plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge, as it is written, but darksome to the foolish is even that which is exceeding easy. For the truly wise hearer shuts up the more obvious teaching in the treasury of his understanding, not admitting any delay in respect of this: but as to the things the meaning whereof is hard, he goes about with his enquiries, and does not cease asking about them; and he seems to me profitably to press on to do much the same as they say that the fleetest dogs of the chase do, who having from nature great quickness of scent, keep running round the haunts of their game.

- Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, Book 4, Chapter 2, at John 6:52-53

Cyril of Jerusalem:

This is the first proof: receive now a second plain one. The Lord said unto my Lord, sit Thou on My right hand. The Lord says this to the Lord, not to a servant, but to the Lord of all, and His own Son, to whom He put all things in subjection. But when He says that all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him, and what follows; that God may be all in all. [1 Corinthians 15:27-28] The Only-begotten Son is Lord of all, but the obedient Son of the Father, for He grasped not the Lordship , but received it by nature of the Father's own will. For neither did the Son grasp it, nor the Father grudge to impart it. He it is who says, All things are delivered unto Me of My Father ; "delivered unto Me, not as though I had them not before; and I keep them well, not robbing Him who has given them."

- Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 10, Section 9

Ephraim the Syrian:

How strangely perplexed are all the heretics by simple things! For when He plainly foreshadowed this New Testament by that of the Prophets, those pitiable men rose, as though from sleep, and shouted out and made a disturbance. And the Way, wherein the righteous held straight on, and by theirtruths had gone forth therein, that [Way] have these broken up, because they were besotted: this they left and went out of; because they pried, an evil searching, [yea,] an evil babbling led them astray.

- Ephraim the Syrian, The Pearl, Hymn 6, Section 3

Gregory the Great:

Although all knowledge and all lore Sacred Scripture without all comparison far excels, to say nothing that it tells forth what is true; that it bids to the heavenly country; that it changes the heart of him that reads it from earthly desires to the embracing of things Above; that by its obscurer statements it exercises the strong, and by its humble strain speaks gently to the little ones; that it is neither so shut up, that it should come to be dreaded, nor so open to view as to become contemptible; that by use it removes weariness, and is the more delighted in the more it is meditated on; that the mind of him, who reads it, by words of a low pitch it assists, and by meanings of a lofty flight uplifts; that in some sort it grows with the persons reading, that by uninstructed readers it is in a manner reviewed, and yet by the well instructed is always found new; so then to say nothing of the weightiness of the subjects, it goes beyond all forms of knowledge and teaching even by the mere manner of its style of speaking, because in one and the same thread of discourse, while it relates the text, it declares a mystery, and has the art so to tell the past, that merely by that alone it knows how to announce the future, and the order of telling remaining unaltered, is instructed by the very self-same forms of speech at once to describe things done before, and to tell things destined to be done, just as it is with these same words of blessed Job, who while he tells his own circumstances foretells ours, and while he points out his own sorrows in respect of the phrase, sounds of the cases and occasions of Holy Church in respect of the meaning.

- Gregory the Great, Morals on the Book of Job, Book 20, Section 1 (Anglican Translators for the Parker Edition)

Here's an alternative translation of the same thing:

Sacred Scripture so incomparably transcends all human knowledge and learning that I am reduced to silence. It proclaims the truth; calls to the heavenly fatherland; changes the heart of the reader from earthly desires to embracing higher ones. It challenges the strong with its more obscure expressions, while attracting little ones with simple speech. It is not so inaccessible that one should be frightened, nor so obvious that it becomes cheap. Familiarity with it takes away boredom; and the more one meditates on it, the more one loves it. It helps the soul of the reader with simple words, raises it with sublime meanings. In a certain sense it grows with the one who reads. The uneducated, in part, appraise it, while on the other hand the learned are always finding new things in it.

- Gregory the Great, Morals on the Book of Job, Book 20, Section 1 (Dennis J. Murphy translation, transcription courtesy of StupidScholar)

Theodoret:

Eran.— Then the Christ is only a man.

Orth.— God forbid. On the contrary, we have again and again confessed that He is not only man but eternal God. But He suffered as man, not as God. And this the divine Apostle clearly teaches us when he says "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead." And in his letter to the Thessalonians, he strengthens his argument concerning the general resurrection by that of our Saviour in the passage "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

- Theodoret, Dialogue 3


And we could go on and on, whether alphabetically (as above), or by going back to those whom we have already read:

Chrysostom:

For, what belongs to men beloved, they who love them know above all others; because they are interested in them. And this also this blessed Apostle shows in what he said to the Philippians; “Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the Gospel.” (Phil. i. 7.) And so ye also, if ye be willing to apply to the reading of him with a ready mind, will need no other aid. For the word of Christ is true which saith, “Seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” (Matt. vii. 7.) But since the greater part of those who here gather themselves to us, have taken upon themselves the bringing up of children, and the care of a wife, and the charge of a family, and for this cause cannot afford to all events aroused to receive those things which have been brought together by others, and bestow as much attention upon the hearing of what is said as ye give to the gathering together of goods. For although it is unseemly to demand only so much of you, yet still one must be content if ye give as much. For from this it is that our countless evils have arisen—from ignorance of the Scriptures; from this it is that the plague of heresies has broken out; from this that there are negligent lives; from this labors without advantage. For as men deprived of this daylight would not walk aright, so they that look not to the gleaming of the Holy Scriptures must needs be frequently and constantly sinning, in that they are walking the worst darkness. And that this fall not out, let us hold our eyes open to the bright shining of the Apostle’s words; for this man’s tongue shone forth above the sun, and be abounded more than all the rest in the word of doctrine; for since he labored more abundantly than they, he also drew upon himself a large measure of the Spirit’s grace. (1 Cor. xv. 10.) And this I constantly affirm, not only from his Epistles, but also from the Acts. For if there were anywhere a season for oratory, to him men everywhere gave place.

- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, Argument, Section 1. (courtesy of Pastor David King)

And again:

For those without----philosphers, rhetoricians, and annalists, not striving for the common good, but having in view their own renown----if they said anything useful, even this they involved in their usual obscurity, as in a cloud. But the apostles and prophets always did the very opposite; they, as the common instructors of the world, made all that they delivered plain to all men, in order that every one, even unaided, might be able to learn by the mere reading. Thus also the prophet spake before, when he said, "All shall be taught of God," (Isa. liv. 13.) "And they shall no more say, every one to his neighbour, Know the Lord, for they shall all know me from the least to the greatest," (Jer. xxxi. 34.) St Paul also says, "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech, or of wisdom, declaring unto you the mystery of God," (1 Cor. ii. 1.) And again, "My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power," (1 Cor. ii. 4.) And again, "We speak wisdom," it is said, "but not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world that come to nought," (1 Cor. ii. 6.) For to whom is not the gospel plain? Who is it that hears, "Blessed are the meek; blessed are the merciful; blessed are the pure in heart," and such things as these, and needs a teacher in order to understand any of the things spoken?

- Chrysostom, Four Discourses on the Rich Man and Lazarus, Discourse 3, Section 3

Or especially by going to those who are among the first few generations of the church:

Justin Martyr:

And Trypho said, “Prove now that this is the case, that we also may agree with you. For we do not understand you to affirm that He has done or said anything contrary to the will of the Maker of all things.”

Then I said, “The Scripture just quoted by me will make this plain to you. It is thus: ‘The sun was risen on the earth, and Lot entered into Segor (Zoar); and the Lord rained on Sodom sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and overthrew these cities and all the neighbourhood.’ ” [Gen. xix. 23.]

- Justin Martyr, Dialog with Trypho, Chapter 56

We could even look to Mr. Bellisario himself who has stated (of Hebrews):

I believe I have worked through the text. You are reading into the text. It is plain that the sacrifice of Christ is being compared to the Old sacrifices. Read the whole text.

(source)

And again:

Saint Augustine did not teach strict predestination. You must follow the correct interpretation of Sacred Scripture and not make up your own. It is plain in sacred Scripture that whole households were baptized. The whole early church practiced this. This is a fact. To argue against infant baptism is denying reality.

(source)

or to John Paul II:

It is interesting that the Athenians, who recognized many gods (pagan polytheism), should have heard these words about the one God, the Creator, without raising objections. This seems to confirm that the truth about creation constitutes a meeting-point between those who profess different religions. Perhaps the truth about creation is rooted in an innate and fundamental way in diverse religions, even if they do not have sufficiently clear concepts, such as those contained in Sacred Scripture.

- John Paul II, General Audience, 15 January 1986

In fact, everyone can see that much of Scripture is plain, and apologists tend to recognize this more than others. For the Romanist apologist, as has been pointed out for hundreds of years, Scripture is always plainly teaching this or that until it becomes convenient to attempt to deny the perspicuity of Scripture.

This, therefore, concludes our rebuttal of Mr. Bellisario and his attempt to avoid the plain truth that Scripture is full of plain truth.

- TurretinFan

John Wesley on "Turretin"

I recently came across this blog post recording John Wesley's negative reaction to a book called "History of the Church" by "Turretin" (link to post). I had hoped this might be a work by Francis Turretin, but I was disappointed. It was instead a reference to Historiae ecclesiasticae compendium usque ad 1700 by Jean-Alphonse Turretin, the unworthy but well-educated son of Francis Turretin.

Thanksgiving Verses - Part 7

In the following passage we find David giving thanks to God upon the coronation of his son, Solomon. This appears to take the form of a prayer. David begins by praising God, then turns to thanking God even while continuing to praise him. David also shows humility, confessing his low estate before God. David prays like a Calvinist, asking God to "prepare their heart unto thee: and give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart," something that the non-Calvinist cannot seem to consistently request.

It is also important to note that David acknowledges that the pilgrimage and sojourning were not over even for the Israelites already in Canaan. David looked - like Abraham his father, as Hebrews tells us - for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Sometimes folks who wish to worship men make hay of the expression "And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king." Leaving aside the possibility that the phrase could be referring to God as king (David, after all, had noted that "thou reignest over all"), the act of the people is neither commended as such nor emphasized in the text, such that we would think that religious worship of human kings was something to be followed by believers. After all, David had not requested any worship of himself, but instead commanded the people: " Now bless the LORD your God."

1 Chronicles 29:10-25
Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said,

Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever. Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.

Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.

But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee. For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.

O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own. I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee: and give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king. And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel: and did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest.

Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king. And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.

Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 11

I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's response to my quotation from Irenaeus. Mr. Bellisario has put my words in italics, and I have attempted to reproduce them as he provided them, within the quotation box below. His own words are (for the most part) in the plain font:

Continuing on through this mess is now proving to be a boring task as we can see that the quotes he uses are taken out of their proper context. What I find to be amusing is that Turretin uses a quote that defeats his own argument. I don't have to say much here, I will just quote exactly what he wrote and see if the text he quotes supports his argument, or defeats it. Does Turretin think that no one will read the text he quoted? Does he expect us to all ignore the parts where Irenaeus is clearly telling us that it is Scripture and Tradition that he appeals to? Does TF know that Irenaeus is referring to the gnostic heresy which proposed that there was a secret oral tradition which interpreted them with this esoteric philosophical understanding?

In fact Irenaeus tells us that there is an authentic Tradition and not a gnostic or secret one known only to this sect. In fact he tells us that the Gnostics are not going by apostolic Tradition, but one of their own making which denied Scripture as being a part of. It is this esoteric knowledge which Irenaeus rebels against. Also once again I point out that there was no New Testament at the time as a canon. The Scriptures Irenaeus is referring to here is most probable the Old Testament to which the gnostics were famous for butchering with their supposed esoteric knowledge which they presumed surpassed that of the Old Testament Scriptures. Let the text speak for itself.

TF writes,
But what about those folks who claim that Scripture is ambiguous and cannot be understood without tradition? We give them the following answer from tradition:

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world” [1 Cor. ii. 6]. And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.

2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

3. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.

I answer:

Unfortunately, Mr. Bellisario does not understand that the quotation defeats his position, not mine. We appeal to tradition just as Irenaeus did. We don't do it because tradition is a separate source of infallible authority, but because folks like the Gnostics and Roman Catholics think that it is. We show that they hold neither to Scripture nor Tradition, preferring their own inventions to both.

Mr. Bellisario would like to read into Irenaeus a modern Roman Catholic view of tradition, but Irenaeus himself doesn't say what Rome says. Irenaeus does not claim that tradition is necessary in order to understand Scripture: he ascribes that error to the Gnostics. Irenaeus acknowledges (as we do) the reality of tradition, but does not make it infallible, as Mr. Bellisario would wish.

But what further answer is needed when Mr. Bellisario does not even present arguments as to this particular quotation? Hopefully the above explanation will suffice to show that the quotation demonstrates that Irenaeus did just what we do: show that the enemies of Scripture claim to adhere to tradition, but in fact hold to neither Scripture nor tradition.

-TurretinFan

Responding to Wes Widner

I had been planning to respond to Wes Widner's critique of Dr. White on Molonism (critique here) but then I noticed Steve Hays' response to Widner (Steve Hays' response here).

Steve Hays does a great job, so for a detailed response, see his comments. I'll add a few thoughts of my own by way of supplement to what Steve has already said.

Wes Widner states: "Middle Knowledge (and William Lane Craig in particular) does not teach that God's soverignty is trumped or determined by man's free will or by God's Middle Knowledge of man's free will."

Yes, it does. Consider Craig's claim:

What I am simply saying is that God's aims in this life, in this world, are for a maximum number of people to come to know God and His salvation as fully as possible. And it is possible that that would not be achieved in a world that did not involve as much suffering and evil as this world does. Far from being counter-intuitive, I find that very plausible.

(source)

That's at least a conditional trumping claim. There's no claim that God is required to create, but if he does, and if he creates free will beings, and if he wishes to save the maximum number of people (as Craig insists), he is restricted to actualizing worlds in which their is suffering and evil on account of the free will of the creatures.

Wes Widner also states: "It is disingenuous to claim that Molinism is a philosophy whereas causal determinism isn't."

That's a mischaracterization of the situation. Molinism is merely philosophical. Causal determinism oozes from Scripture. It is provable from Scripture - making it a Biblical, and not merely a philosophical, position. Of course, causal determinism is a metaphysical claim. That's not the issue.

Wed Widner futher states: "You misrepresent Molinism as a doctrine wholly based on the freedom of man's will."

The foundation of Molinism is the novel concept of "middle knowledge." Middle knowledge is defined based on the actions of "free" creatures, especially men. So, to deny that Molinism is a doctrine wholly based on the freedom of man's will is only a plausible comment if one is using the terms "wholly" or "man" in a way that is stronger than anything the critics of Molinism would intend. As such, the assertion of misrepresentation is unfounded.

I'll limit my comments to those points in view of Steve's fuller discussion.

-TurretinFan

Frank Turk and the Concession Speech

This article by Frank Turk on the gospel is worth the 2-3 minutes it takes to read it (link). I'm not saying I agree with every last jot and tittle of what he writes, but the main points he makes are the main points that need to be made, especially to the folks with whom he's dealing. He's responding to some extent both to Broad Path Evangelicalism and to Roman Catholicism in the same post.

Thanksgiving Verses - Part 6

We previously noted that the Levites were to give thanks every morning and evening. We should note that under David, there was apparently a degree of specialization, with the family of Jeduthun being particularly appointed for the service of thanksgiving. We find Psalms 39, 62, and 77 being directed to "To the chief Musician, even to Jeduthun," two of those being Psalms of David and the third being a psalm of Asaph. Those Psalms are presented below. Notice that Psalm 62 repeats the similar concept that we saw in a previous section, affirming that Christ alone is our Rock: "He only is my rock." You may also notice that there is a similar theme of remembering the redemption of the Lord, the way that God took the people out of the land of Egpyt. That redemption was a type and shadow of the deliverance of the elect from the bondage of sin through the cross of Christ.

1 Chronicles 25:1-7
Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:

Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.

Of Jeduthun: the sons of Jeduthun; Gedaliah, and Zeri, and Jeshaiah, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the hands of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with a harp, to give thanks and to praise the LORD.

Of Heman: the sons of Heman; Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shebuel, and Jerimoth, Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti, and Romamtiezer, Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir, and Mahazioth: all these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn. And God gave to Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.

All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king's order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman. So the number of them, with their brethren that were instructed in the songs of the LORD, even all that were cunning, was two hundred fourscore and eight.

Psalm 39


I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me. I was dumb with silence, I held my peace, even from good; and my sorrow was stirred. My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue,

LORD, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is; that I may know how frail I am. Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them. And now, Lord, what wait I for? my hope is in thee. Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish.

I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; because thou didst it. Remove thy stroke away from me: I am consumed by the blow of thine hand. When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man is vanity. Selah.

Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were. O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.

Psalm 62

Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall shall ye be, and as a tottering fence.

They only consult to cast him down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.

My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved. In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.

Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity. Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God. Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Psalm 77


I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me. In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted. I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.

Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak. I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search. Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more? Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore? Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High. I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old. I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings. Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people. Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.

The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled. The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad. The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook. Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known. Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Broad Path Evangelicalism

There is a soft-hearted variety of "Evangelicalism" out there that doesn't want to make anyone unhappy. There's also a hard-hearted variety that takes pleasure in making others unhappy, but that group is much smaller. This soft-hearted variety always likes to think the best of other people and doesn't want to make anyone upset or nay-say them. They feel it is uncharitable to tell someone, "You say you're a Christian, but you are not."

This is what I call "broad path Evangelicalism." It welcomes everyone to come along for the ride. "Oh, so you deny that Jehovah of the Old Testament is the same God as Jesus? No problem," they say, "You're wrong, but you're still my Christian brother."

And folks will do this with all manner of damnable heresy. If Muslims starts calling themselves "Christians," these folks will say, "well, we don't agree with your theology, but we're glad that you agree that Jesus was a great prophet."

This is not true love. True love is warning the lost that they are lost. Of course, some broad path evangelicals have no idea who is saved and who is lost - they have no idea what the gospel is: some because they have not been well taught by their elders, and others because they have drunk too deeply from the well of post-modernism.

And the saddest thing is this: there are many broad path evangelicals who have so little idea of what the gospel is, that they are lost themselves. After all, the gospel isn't church attendance, or affiliation with a "Protestant" congregation or denomination. The gospel isn't trying to live a basically decent life. The gospel isn't reciting the Nicene Creed.

What is the gospel? It is prefaced by recognizing that you are a sinner, that sin is loathsome and detestable in God's sight, and that you as a sinner are under the wrath of God. It is confession of your sin to God, repentance from your sin, and trust in Christ (to the exclusion of others including yourself) for the forgiveness of your sin and reconciliation with God. It is casting yourself on God's mercy, it is making him and him alone your Rock.

That means that the path to everlasting life is a lot narrower than you might think. Those who deny Christ are not saved. Those who trust in Mary now and at the hour of their death are trusting the wrong person. It's not loving for us to suggest that folks can go on praying to Mary and expect God's favor on the last day. It's not kind to tell people that they should be fine because they go to church every Sunday. A watchman who refuses to warn the city of the danger that is coming is not a loving watchman, he's a traitor to the city. So to is the god-fearing man who refuses to tell the lost to turn from their way.

Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 10

I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's response to another of my quotations from Athanasius. Mr. Bellisario has put my words in italics, and I have attempted to reproduce them as he provided them, within the quotation box below. His own words are (for the most part) in the plain font:

Turretin then again cuts and pastes a quote by Athanasius,

"But," says the Arian, "is it not written?" Yes, it is written! And it is necessary that it should be said. But what is well written is ill understood by heretics. If they had understood and grasped the terms in which Christianity is expressed, they would not have called the Lord of glory [1 Corinthians 2:8; cf. James 2:1] a creature nor stumbled over what is well written.

- Athanasius, Epistle to Serapion

If Turretin had done any real research he would know that the proper understanding that Athanasius was referring to is that of Tradition within the Church. The heresy he was addressing was Arianism and he was using Sacred Scripture within the Church Tradition to combat it. I already proved that from the quotes I gave above. Another flimsy flam.

I answer:

Bellisario's comment here is simply the equivalent of shouting. Read what the quotation says. It refers explicitly to what is written and says that it is well written, referring to the sense of Scripture being conveyed well in writing. There's nothing here about it needing to be understood "within the Church Tradition" despite what Mr. Bellisario might like to see. Since Bellisario hangs his hat mainly on his previous comments on Athanasius, we too shall refer the reader to our previous response to him on that subject.

-TurretinFan

Remember, remember the fifth of November ...

Guy Fawkes' Day is today, November 5. The day commemorates the discovery of the infamous gunpowder plot aimed at destroying Parliament while in session. Mr. Fawkes used the rather obvious pseudonym "John Johnson" when arrested and King James of Biblical fame (though not yet, as the KJV was still 6 years to come) had him tortured to reveal his co-conspirators. The conspiracy, as it turned out, was a Roman Catholic conspiracy aimed at destroying especially the Scottish Presbyterian Parliament members. There was some concern amongst the conspirators as to how to avoid blowing up their co-religionists with the rest of Parliament, which seems to have delayed the execution of the plot. Indeed, someone (apparently one of the conspirators) warned one of the Roman Catholic members of parliament in vague terms, which ultimately led to the plot's discovery.

Psalm 37:12-15
The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

-TurretinFan

Thanksgiving Verses - Part 5

In this passage we learn that one of the duties of the Levites was to give thanks and praise to God not only on special occasions like at the return of the ark of the covenant (as we saw in the last section) but daily, even twice a day: morning and evening. Since we are all, in the New Testament era, the priests and Levites of God, let us remember to do the same, thanking and praising God morning and evening.

1 Chronicles 23:27-32

For by the last words of David the Levites were numbered from twenty years old and above: because their office was to wait on the sons of Aaron for the service of the house of the LORD, in the courts, and in the chambers, and in the purifying of all holy things, and the work of the service of the house of God; both for the shewbread, and for the fine flour for meat offering, and for the unleavened cakes, and for that which is baked in the pan, and for that which is fried, and for all manner of measure and size; and to stand every morning to thank and praise the LORD, and likewise at even; and to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD: and that they should keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, and the charge of the holy place, and the charge of the sons of Aaron their brethren, in the service of the house of the LORD.

Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 9

I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's response to my quotation from Chrysostom. Mr. Bellisario has put my words in italics, and I have attempted to reproduce them as he provided them, within the quotation box below. His own words are (for the most part) in the plain font:

TF then moves on to Saint John Chrysostom to try and prove that the Scriptures are easy to understand. He writes,

One wonders whether Mr. Shea is even aware of what John Chrysostom (A.D. 347 - 407) spoke about the perspicuity of Scripture:

What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain. But because ye are hearers for pleasure’s sake, for that reason also you seek these things. For tell me, with what pomp of words did Paul speak? and yet he converted the world. Or with what the unlettered Peter? But I know not, you say, the things that are contained in the Scriptures. Why? For are they spoken in Hebrew? Are they in Latin, or in foreign tongues? Are they not in Greek? But they are expressed obscurely, you say: What is it that is obscure? Tell me. Are there not histories? For (of course) you know the plain parts, in that you enquire about the obscure. There are numberless histories in the Scriptures. Tell me one of these. But you cannot. These things are an excuse, and mere words. Every day, you say, one hears the same things. Tell me, then, do you not hear the same things in the theaters? Do you not see the same things in the race-course? Are not all things the same? Is it not always the same sun that rises? Is it not the same food that we use? I should like to ask you, since you say that you every day hear the same things; tell me, from what Prophet was the passage that was read? from what Apostle, or what Epistle? But you cannot tell me—you seem to hear strange things. When therefore you wish to be slothful, you say that they are the same things. But when you are questioned, you are in the case of one who never heard them. If they are the same, you ought to know them. But you are ignorant of them.

- John Chrysostom, Homily 3 on 2 Thessalonians

Did TF learn why the great Saint was writing this or in what context? I think we have a case of cut and paste here. Lets look at what the great Saint is talking about here. First of all this is a homily on 2 Thessalonians 9, 10 “Who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His might, when He shall come to be glorified in His Saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed.” In it the Saint is disappointed by those coming to Church who think that the Gospel is only something that is coming from him. He is upset that they are not taking the reading of the Scriptures in the Liturgy to heart as the word of God, so he scolds them for it telling them to study the Scriptures because that is where he is getting his information from that he preaches on. This of course is the custom of the Church, to preach on the Scripture of the liturgical day. He is upset that they are not paying attention to the readings, rather they pay more attention to the writings of secular rulers. This understanding from the perspective of Saint John comes with faith within the Church. In reading the text before and after the cut and paste that Turretin Fan used, we can see that he understands the Scriptures to be plainly understood in the context of laboring to understand them in faith and in the Liturgy. Lets look at some of the text before the text quoted, leading into part of it.

They think when they enter in here, that they enter into our presence, they think that what they hear they hear from us. They do not lay to heart, they do not consider, that they are entering into the presence of God, that it is He who addresses them. For when the Reader standing up says, “Thus saith the Lord,” and the Deacon stands and imposes silence on all, he does not say this as doing honor to the Reader, but to Him who speaks to all through him. If they knew that it was God who through His prophet speaks these things, they would cast away all their pride. For if when rulers are addressing them, they do not allow their minds to wander, much less would they, when God is speaking. We are ministers, beloved. We speak not our own things, but the things of God, letters coming from heaven are every day read.

Tell me then, I beseech you, if now, when we are all present some one entered, having a golden girdle, and drawing himself up, and with an air of consequence said that he was sent by the king that is on the earth, and that he brought letters to the whole city concerning matters of importance; would you not then be all turned towards him? Would you not, without any command from a deacon, observe a profound silence? Truly I think so. For I have often heard letters from kings read here. Then if any one comes from a king, you all attend; and does a Prophet come from God, and speak from heaven, and 388no one attend? Or do you not believe that these things are messages from God? These are letters sent from God; therefore let us enter with becoming reverence into the Churches, and let us hearken with fear to the things here said.

What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain.

Here Saint John is clearly upset that those who are attending are not paying attention and are living in sloth. They are not listening to the Scriptures in a state of grace, but of contempt. Saint John is merely pointing out that for those who are attentive, and those who believe, they will understand the Scriptures. In fact just after this passage he closes by urging these people to labor at understanding the Scriptures because they are guilty of being lazy and not applying themselves to the Scriptures. It is clear that Saint John believes that the Scriptures are only easy to understand to those that really believe and have faith, not just anyone who decides to read them.

"This state of things is worthy of lamentation—of lamentation and complaint: for the coiner coineth but in vain. For this you ought more especially to attend, because they are the same things, because we give you no labor, nor speak things that are strange or variable. What then, since you say, that those are the same things, but our discourses are not the same things, but we always speak things that are new to you, do you pay heed to these? By no means. But if we say, Why do you not retain even these? “We hear them but once,” you say, “and how can we retain them?” If we say, Why do ye not attend to those other things? “The same things,” you say, “are always said”—and every way these are words of sloth and excuse. But they will not always serve, but there will be a time when we shall lament in vain and without effect. Which may God forbid, and grant that having repented here, and attending with understanding and godly fear to the things spoken, we may both be urged on to the due performance of good works, and may amend our own lives with all diligence, that we may be able to obtain the blessings promised to those who love Him, by the grace and lovingkindness, &c."

This is not the ace in the hole Turretin thought he had found. This is an exposition on the problems that Saint John had with people being lazy not paying attention or taking the Scriptures seriously. Saint John is not saying that the essentials are in the Scriptures alone, nor that they never need to be explained. We can see this in his continued homily on 2nd Thess 2:15 where he clearly appeals to the Church and Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture.

“So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.”

Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther. Here he shows that there were many who were shaken.

I answer:

Right off the bat, notice how Mr. Bellisario attempts to redirect away from the perspicuity of the necessary to the things back to the straw man of the perspicuity of Scriptures in general.

Mr. Bellisario expresses some initial concern that I might be unfamiliar with the context. His concern is unfounded, but it is nice to see that in this case Mr. Bellisario at least attempts, on some level, to interact with the context of what Chrysostom is saying. Of course, nothing that Mr. Bellisario says is going to overthrow the fact that Chrysostom states: "All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain." Nevertheless, let's examine Mr. Bellisario's contention.

Mr. Bellisario contends that Chrysostom is concerned because people are not paying adequate attention to the reading of Scripture during the worship service. He provides a quotation, which demonstrates that Chrysostom felt like the people were treating the readings from Scripture as though they were merely the teachings of the church rather than the very word of God. So far, we see no real problem with what Mr. Bellisario is saying.

Eventually, however, Mr. Bellisario makes a puzzling shift. First he makes the reasonable comment, "In fact just after this passage he closes by urging these people to labor at understanding the Scriptures because they are guilty of being lazy and not applying themselves to the Scriptures," but then he follows this by the assertion: "It is clear that Saint John believes that the Scriptures are only easy to understand to those that really believe and have faith, not just anyone who decides to read them." Such an assertion is not at all "clear." In fact, it is not supported by any of the discussion that Mr. Bellisario has provided. Chrysostom does not provide any such qualification on his statement.

After providing the quotation again, Mr. Bellisario again notes that this was directed to the lazy members of Chrysostom's church and then asserts: "Saint John is not saying that the essentials are in the Scriptures alone, nor that they never need to be explained." This claim of Bellisario is odd, because it is not targeted toward the argument that we had used. We agree with Mr. Bellisario's characterization, and simply note that it is irrelevant to the argument.

The final portion of Mr. Bellisario's response is to refer us to another homily from Chrysostom. In this other homily, we find the following lines:

Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther. Here he shows that there were many who were shaken.

- Chrysostom, Homily 4 on 2 Thessalonians, at 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Of course, this has nothing to do with perspicuity. It does, however, make reference to "unwritten" traditions that are "tradition of the Church" and are worthy of credit. What Mr. Bellisario cannot do is identify what this "unwritten tradition" is. Chrysostom does not identify it, and we can reasonably understand Chrysostom to be referring to traditional practices, not a separate body of oral teachings. What Chrysostom is certainly not referring to is the idea of an evolving body of developing tradition - an infallible magisterium producing new authoritative dogma.

- TurretinFan

Dan on Pluperfects Again

I had previously pointed out how Dan was misunderstanding the pluperfect tense as applied to Acts 13:48 (link). Unfortunately, Dan does not listen to me and has chosen instead to prove by his actions how a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing (link).

Dan thinks I'm mistaken and provides the following evidence:

The Pluperfect of Completed Action. The Pluperfect is used of an action which was complete at a point of past time implied in the context. (Burton)

The Pluperfect represents an action as already finished at some specified past time (Goodwin)

The problem is not that Dan's evidence is bad, but that Dan doesn't understand the evidence.

The pluperfect is a verb tense that indicates that something happened before time X, where time X is itself a specified (at least usually) past event. That's a bit like the future perfect: a tense that indicates that something will have happened before time X, where time X is itself a specified (at least usually) future event.

The ordaining in Acts 13:48 takes place prior to the specified hearing, being glad, rejoicing, and believing. That's what the pluperfect indicates. It was complete by that time, it was not performed at that time. It does not indicate that we can state when precisely the ordaining itself occurred. I would suggest that Dan contact a Greek professor who he knows and trusts to clarify this grammatical point to him, as he obviously doesn't trust me.

To provide a simple English example, the following sentence uses the pluperfect: "I had cleaned my room when my mother came home." In this example, "when my mother came home" is the specified time. It is not the time when the cleaning took place, but rather time before which the cleaning took place. I could have cleaned my room long before that event, or just before that event, but anyway when my mother came home, the room was clean.

The same goes for Acts 13:48. The ordaining was done before the specified time, such that at the specified time, the action of ordaining had already been completed. That's what Burton and Goodwin are trying to tell Dan, if only Dan would listen to them more carefully or to me. Hopefully, Dan will avail himself of someone whom he knows is familiar with Greek grammar: someone Dan trusts. That way, Dan can receive confirmation that what I am telling him is true, since it appears plain that Dan is not willing to take my word for it.

-TurretinFan

Response to Dan's Use of Pluperfect

Recently (link to mp3 of July 30, 2009, Dividing Line Program), Dan called into the Dividing Line radio program. He was calling to discuss the following verse:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Dan recognized that the expression "were ordained" is, in Greek, a periphrastic pluperfect. Dan also noted that, grammatically speaking, one gets the timing of the action of the verb from the context. Both of these observations are correct.

However, Dan unfortunately seems to have misunderstood how the timing is indicated by the context. In this case, the reference timing is the time when the Gentiles, heard the gospel message, were glad, glorified the word of the Lord, and believed. The pluperfect indicates an action that was "past" with respect to those events.

That means that the ordaining was done before hearing, the being glad, the glorifying, and the believing. That does not necessarily specify when exactly the ordaining was done, which is a point that Dr. White tried to emphasize.

If we only had this verse we could not say whether the ordaining had been done (notice my own use of the pluperfect) in eternity past, a week before the message was preached, or five minutes before the apostle spoke.

Thankfully, we are not limited to this verse, but instead have the remainder of the Bible, which provides further light as to when folks are ordained to eternal life. Dan's apparent error of thinking that the ordaining should occur at some time mentioned in the context is a simple grammatical error that would have suggested that the ordaining took place when they people were hearing, being glad, glorifying, etc.. This mistake has, we trust, been fully addressed above.

On the other hand, however, could not be more clear: they are not ordained to eternal life after they believe. They did not first believe and then consequently were ordained to eternal life. No, the verse makes plain that the ordaining preceding the believing. This may not directly undermine some non-Calvinist views, but it does undermine the view (not Dan's view, I trust) that men ordain themselves for eternal life by believing.

I'm glad Dan called in, and I hope he'll call in again sometime.

-TurretinFan

Thanksgiving Verses - Part 4

In this passage we see David giving thanks for the return of the ark. He uses the mechanism prescribed in Leviticus: peace offerings in the form of thank offerings. He also sings a psalm of thanksgiving. As in the previous example, the Psalter has provided the "to be sung" version of this, namely Psalms 105, 96, and 106 respectively, which I've provided below. Notice that David makes a thanksgiving feast for the people: a loaf of bread, a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine.

1 Chronicles 16

So they brought the ark of God, and set it in the midst of the tent that David had pitched for it: and they offered burnt sacrifices and peace offerings before God. And when David had made an end of offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD. And he dealt to every one of Israel, both man and woman, to every one a loaf of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine.

And he appointed certain of the Levites to minister before the ark of the LORD, and to record, and to thank and praise the LORD God of Israel: Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, Jeiel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Mattithiah, and Eliab, and Benaiah, and Obededom: and Jeiel with psalteries and with harps; but Asaph made a sound with cymbals; Benaiah also and Jahaziel the priests with trumpets continually before the ark of the covenant of God. Then on that day David delivered first this psalm to thank the LORD into the hand of Asaph and his brethren.

Give thanks unto the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people. Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works. Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually. Remember his marvellous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; and hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; when ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it.

And when they went from nation to nation, and from one kingdom to another people; he suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes, saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

Sing unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation. Declare his glory among the heathen; his marvellous works among all nations. For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. Glory and honour are in his presence; strength and gladness are in his place.

Give unto the LORD, ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength. Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness. Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth. Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof: let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein. Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.

O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever. And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.

Blessed be the LORD God of Israel for ever and ever.

And all the people said, Amen, and praised the LORD.

So he left there before the ark of the covenant of the LORD Asaph and his brethren, to minister before the ark continually, as every day's work required: and Obededom with their brethren, threescore and eight; Obededom also the son of Jeduthun and Hosah to be porters: and Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of the LORD in the high place that was at Gibeon, to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD upon the altar of the burnt offering continually morning and evening, and to do according to all that is written in the law of the LORD, which he commanded Israel; and with them Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest that were chosen, who were expressed by name, to give thanks to the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever; and with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters. And all the people departed every man to his house: and David returned to bless his house.

Psalm 105
O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people. Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works. Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: when they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.

When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people; he suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm. Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread. He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant: whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron: until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him. The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free. He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance: to bind his princes at his pleasure; and teach his senators wisdom.

Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham. And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants. He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen. They shewed his signs among them, and wonders in the land of Ham. He sent darkness, and made it dark; and they rebelled not against his word. He turned their waters into blood, and slew their fish. Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings. He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts. He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land. He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts. He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers, and that without number, And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground. He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength. He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes.

Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them. He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night. The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven. He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river. For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.

And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness: and gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people; that they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalm 96

O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth. Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day. Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.

For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.

Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength. Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts. O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth. Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Psalm 106

Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Who can utter the mighty acts of the LORD? who can shew forth all his praise?

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; that I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.

We have sinned with our fathers, we have committed iniquity, we have done wickedly. Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea. Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known. He rebuked the Red sea also, and it was dried up: so he led them through the depths, as through the wilderness. And he saved them from the hand of him that hated them, and redeemed them from the hand of the enemy. And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left. Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.

They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel: but lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert. And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul. They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD. The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram. And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked. They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image. Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.

They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt; wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea. Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word: but murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the LORD. Therefore he lifted up his hand against them, to overthrow them in the wilderness: to overthrow their seed also among the nations, and to scatter them in the lands. They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead. Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them. Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes: because they provoked his spirit, so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips. They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them: but were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works. And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity.

Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: and he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives.

Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.

Was Jesus a Calvinist?

Ok, it's an obvious anachronism. Still, Josh Williamson at The Reformed Evangelist was kind enough to post a thought-provoking article on that topic, apparently originally by Sam Storms (link to article).

Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 8

I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's response to my quotation from Augustine. Mr. Bellisario has put my words in italics, and I have attempted to reproduce them as he provided them, within the quotation box below. His own words are (for the most part) in the plain font:

Turretin continues to rail against Mark Shea by next quoting St. Augustine on understanding the word of God. Somehow Turretin Fan comes to the conclusion that not all things in Scripture are easy to understand, but only the "necessary" things. For someone who hails himself as loving Scripture, and someone who claims it as his only authority, I find his position quite flimsy. So where does the Scriptures tell us what things in it are essential? Is it just the things that Turretin finds essential? Because God gave us the entire Biblical Canon for a reason. It is all essential. But not for the Sola Scripturist. It is only convenient to say that the essential texts are easy. This is the flimsiest yet of his arguments.

I answer:

1) Notice that Mr. Bellisario doesn't touch the actual quotation from Augustine.

2) Notice that Mr. Bellisario seems confused about what is being argued. Yes, our position is only that the necessary things are clear, not that everything is clear. We reach this conclusion from Scripture, since we are told that in Paul's epistles there "are some things hard to be understood," (2 Peter 3:16) but also that Scripture is able to make one wise unto salvation (2 Timothy 3:15).

3) Mr. Bellisario makes the typical confused response that asks for a list of the essentials. We don't have a list of the essentials or, at least, don't have a clear list of the essentials. That should not be surprising, since knowing which doctrines are essential is not itself an essential doctrine.

4) Mr. Bellisario argues that the entire Biblical canon is essential. This argument is simply backed up by Mr. Bellisario's say-so. We have noted that Chrysostom disagreed with Mr. Bellisario, and - Lord willing - we will shortly examine the response that Mr. Bellisario provides (if any) to Chrysostom's recognition that not everything in Scripture is equally necessary to salvation.

5) But, of course, Mr. Bellisario's argument that every last bit of the Biblical canon is essential is absurd. Hardly anyone could claim to be so familiar with Scripture as to have a complete and accurate knowledge of every last bit of it. We doubt that even Mr. Bellisario would be so arrogant as to assert such a level of familiarity with Scripture.

So, while Mr. Bellisario may think that stating that perspicuity is relevant to the necessary things is a "flimsy argument" it is rather a statement of our position, and a conclusion derived proprely from Scripture.

-TurretinFan

Muller on the Reformation

The following is a very brief response I had written and placed on hold some time ago, but which I might as well post now. After that is some more recent news, brought to my attention by the helpful folks at Historical Theoblogy.

*** Older Portion ***

I've perceived that Ponter, battered and bruised by the Biblical (and Confessional) broadside against his bellicose and bilious banter, has pursued an even less productive path, pointing to his pal Muller as prince (or perhaps pope!) of Protestant pigeonholing (here's Ponter's Post).

Bah. [Both to the technique used and to my silly overuse of adjectives and consonation.]

Muller is part of the Calvin vs. Calvinist movement, which is a blemish on his record. As Dr. Chad van Dixhoorn recently noted, "Ward’s two chapters strike a more militant tone, and begin by chastening the public for their ignorant assumptions about the Assembly - a now commonplace introduction for lectures and studies about the gathering. He then takes up the hammer that Muller usually wields and batters away at the Calvin-versus-Calvinist arguments that continue to encrust otherwise attractive post Reformation research."(Emphasis added - source)

One doesn't have to be an anonymous internet apologist to recognize that just because one or two historians make a claim about the Reformation, doesn't make it so. Muller doesn't have anything better to back up his claims than Ponter has ... although perhaps Muller would be more circumspect about how makes such claims.

***

I had drafted the above some time ago, and left it in draft mode. However, now it seems Muller has provided a new article on Calvin and Calvinism which concludes that neither Calvin nor the Calvinists were Calvinists. Muller ends up qualifying himself quite heavily, but I suspect it will simply be more fodder for the cannon of our Amyraldian friends (link to report regarding Muller's paper - direct link to Muller's paper)

My comment about him not having anything better than Ponter is almost certainly an overstatement, though Ponter has scrounged for material quite doggedly. I encourage folks to read Muller's paper, if only to get a better idea of a more moderate stance on the "Calvin vs. the Calvinists" position than what one would see at Ponter's blog.

-TurretinFan