Friday, April 13, 2007

Communicating with Dead People

There are lots of issues where reasonable people can differ, but speaking with the dead has an historical name, and it is necromancy.

It is specifically forbidden in the Old Testament, there are no positive examples of it being practiced in Scripture, and its origin is clear: it is pagan.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12
9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

You can feel free to consult with, ask for the intercessions of, and seek the help of those who are living, but communication with the departed is explicitly forbidden and is identified by Scripture as one of the reasons for which the Canaanites were condemned to the punishment of genocide.

This post is by reader request, but to the Glory of God the Father, and His risen Son!

-Turretinfan

Objection 1:


But the "dead in Christ" are alive, therefore we can communicate with them.

I respond:

The "dead in Christ" are not physically alive, and it is communicating with the physically dead that is prohibited in Scripture. If communicating with the spiritually dead were what is forbidden, we could not evangelize.

-Turretinfan

Objection 2

Praying to the saints and Mary are found in the Apocryphal books.

I respond:

Tobit mentions prayers OF the saints.

2 Maccabees mentions praying FOR the dead, but not praying TO the dead.

Baruch also mentions praying FOR the dead, but not praying TO the dead.

Wisdom mocks prayers TO the dead (more specifically, of course, to dead idols):

Wisdom 13:17-18

17Then maketh he prayer for his goods, for his wife and children, and is not ashamed to speak to that which hath no life. 18For health he calleth upon that which is weak: for life prayeth to that which is dead; for aid humbly beseecheth that which hath least means to help: and for a good journey he asketh of that which cannot set a foot forward:

I don't recall any passage of the accepted Apocrypha that mentions praying to anyone but God. Perhaps this objector has confused prayers FOR the dead with prayers TO the dead? Both are wrong, but while some passages of the Apocrypha may be taken to support the former, surely none can be used to support the latter.

- Turretinfan

Thursday, April 12, 2007

A Canon is a Reflection of Historical Fact

Any canon (list) of the works of any author is a reflection of historical fact.

If I come along and say that Macbeth was not written by Shakespeare, I am disputing the accepted canon of Shakespeare, and saying that it should be revised so as not to include that particular play.

If someone comes along and says that James is not written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they are disputing the accepted canon of Scripture, and saying that it should be revised so as not to include that particular epistle.

No one has the "authority" to put books in, or take books out of the canon: we simply have a duty to recognize the truth of Divine inspiration that is exhibited in the 66 books, in two testaments that we call "The Bible."

So, the Roman Catholics do not have the authority to add books to the Old Testament, and the modernists do not have the authority to remove books from the New Testament.

The Shepherd of Hermas should not be included in Bibles, because it is not divinely inspired. It's not as though it hasn't been voted into Biblehood yet - it simply wasn't inspired.

-Turretinfan

"Foreknowledge" and "Freewill"

A respected (by me at least) not-quite-Calvinist writer, going by the handle Godismyjudge, has responded (somewhat obliquely) to my earlier post, with a full, 30+ page article on his own web site.

Before you read the article, if you choose to do so, you should know that Godismyjudge is not a George Bryson, Emir/Ergun Caner, Norm Geisler, or Dave Hunt "Arminian." Godismyjudge is something closer to a classical Arminian or a Molinist. I think Godismyjudge finds William Lane Craig to be a better figurehead of his views. With a bit of a grin, I think Godismyjudge is a Calvinist who hasn't discovered that he's a Calvinist yet.

Thus, Godismyjudge would find himself at theological odds with many of the anti-Calvinist authors that I have quoted and/or replied against here. Godismyjudge's paper is, nevertheless, of interest to me.

It is a detailed, analytical presentation that attempts to reconcile God's infallible, exhaustive knowledge of the future (which the writer terms "foreknowledge") with what appears to be libertarian free will (which the writer calls "freewill").

While I disagree with a great deal of the article, and I suppose I should, at some point, respond line by line, here are the most obvious challenges:

Dear Godismyjudge,

1) One of the weaknesses of your article is your attempt to establish "freewill" from Scripture. You appeal to what you view as five types of passages. Reviewing those five types of passages, however, it becomes clear that the passages themselves are only sufficient to support Calvinistic free will, and not sufficient to support libertarian free will.

Specifically, Calvinistic free will simply says that a choice is a determination or judgment by an animate being with respect to one object in preference to another object. No more of a free will than that is taught by Scripture, yet the reason for presenting your argument evaporates if there is no Scriptural reason to believe in anything more than Calvinistic free will.

Why do any of the passages you cited, or the combination of passages, require anything more than a simple, Calvinistic free will?

2) There are lots of kinds of necessity mentioned in your article. Nevertheless, you don't really tie (as far as I could see) one or more of these kinds of necessity into your definition of "freewill." Indeed, most of your (and your adopted) definitions relate to the "necessity" of propositions, not actions, choices, or events. As such, a thoughtful reader is left wondering whether you have even identified what it is you believe. I, for one, could not discover the relationship between "necessity" (any version from "de dicto" to "de re natural necessity/impossibility/contingence" in your list in Appendix A) and your definition of libertarian free will, which you label "freewill."

A typical definition of libertarian free will is that man is free from necessity. That sounds great, but when we explore what is meant by the word "necessity," it turns out either to be essentially meaningless, in conflict with Scripture, in conflict with reason, and/or (and more than one can apply) utterly detached from the ordinary meaning of the term "necessity" in common parlance.

What is your definition of "freewill" (your term), how does it relate (presumably negatively) to "necessity," and what is your definition of that kind of necessity to which "freewill" relates?

3) Do you acknowledge the thesis of my post, namely: "There is a future, one future, and only one future. What that future is, is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it." to be a true thesis and supported by Scripture?

4) If not (to item 3), then why not?

May God bless you abundantly,

-Turretinfan

Godismyjudge has replied:

If I have yet to discover my Calvinist leanings, perhaps you might be able to get me in touch with my true feelings. I do take a hard line on total depravity. It's biblical. So in that sense I might look more Calvinistic than many modern authors. I also view God's providential control a bit tighter than some. But I do hold to freewill. And I suspect that the ancient writers that I enjoy best (Arminius, Molina, Suarez) were those most troublesome to the first Calvinists.

Calvinists also believe in "free will" properly defined, brother Godismyjudge.

Godismyjudge continues:

Let's get into your questions.
[as to Question 1] My honest answer is I don't know, because I am not quite clear on the Calvinistic definition of freewill. From what I do understand either Calvinistic freewill matches the scriptural definition and runs into consistency issues with other Calvinistic teachings such as prognostic determinism and causal determinism, or the Calvinistic definition does not meet the requirements of the passages I listed.

I respond:

I'm not sure what is unclear in the definition I provided, namely: "Calvinistic free will simply says that a choice is a determination or judgment by an animate being with respect to one object in preference to another object." What is unclear?

Godismyjudge continued:

If I could request a minor clarification on your part that would be helpful. My request for clarification is in two parts. The first relates to "preference" as you use the term in your definition. Choice and preference can be synonyms, but to use a synonym to define its counterpart is somewhat bootstrapped. But I am not sure what you mean by preference so if you could please explain that would be great.

I respond:
Using synonyms to define terms is pretty much standard practice. Is the problem that it is unclear what it means to prefer something? To prefer something means to desire it more than something else. Thus, to choose is to express greater desire for one object than another. I hope that helps. Are you now able to answer the question?

Godismyjudge continued:
Second, I presume you think man has the ability to choose as you have defined choice. Could you please define that ability? Also could you please state if we are able to select the alternative object (the object we will not choose), using the same definition for ability that you use for the object we will choose? If we are not able to choose the alternative object in the same sense of ability, but rather in some other sense of ability, please provide that sense.

I respond:

Men do make choices. In common parlance, people can only do things that are within their ability. Accordingly, using that common parlance sense of the term, men have the ability to make choices.

Given the definitions provided above for choice, it would be absurd to speak of a person choosing what is less desired or unpreferred. The exception, of course, is when one is speaking disjointly - as, for example, when we speak of a martyr choosing death. Recall that the preference is a relative preference. It is not that the martyr prefers death to life, but that the martyr prefers death to betrayal of his Lord.

Taking the example of the martyr, if the man loved his life more than he loved Christ, he would not choose martyrdom but would recant - kiss the toe of the statue of Peter, or whatever task was assigned - and live. There is no question that the martyr has the physical ability to speak words of recantation, that the martyr has the physical ability to crawl on his knees to a basilica, etc. Thus, the martyr could say to his tormentors, "Do you not realize that I have the ability to recant and save myself?" What is implied behind those words is "if I desired to" or "if I loved my life more than I love my King."

Hopefully that answers your questions. Can you answer mine now?

Godismyjudge continues:
Question 2
Request for clarification
[See Question 2 above]
Thanks for requesting the clarification. I will likely rework the article with some additional explanation. In the section on choice and ability I provided some broad definitions (the ability to do otherwise or power over alternative possibilities). I didn't but should have endorsed them. I wanted to relate them to the topic of the paper so I provided: "the ability to do nonA at T3 entails that nothing prior to T3 renders nonA impossible." This was meant to relate the definition of freewill to
foreknowledge.

I respond:

When you say that you should have endorsed them, are you saying that you do endorse them now?

I can understand "the ability to do X at T requires that nothing prior to T makes X impossible," and recognize that it is based on the premise "impossibility is inconsistent with ability" or in other words, "one can only do that which is possible." There's nothing objectionable about the point that one can only do the possible, and not the impossible.

Nevertheless, I don't see much (if any connection) between that and any defintion of necessity.

Godismyjudge continued:

As for the type of necessity the will is free from, I would say any type of necessity. Using Freddosso's definitions I would say the will is free from causal necessity (which also entails logical, metaphysical de dicto, historical contingency).

I respond:

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see Freddoso's definition of "causal necessity" in your article. Perhaps you could provide me that defintion?

Godismyjudge continued:

Question 3
[See Question 3 above]
I have trouble with your use of the word "is" as I can't tell in what sense you are claiming that the future exists today.

I respond:
I'm obliged to mention Bill Clinton's name here.
Moving on, I don't recall saying that the future exists today. My statement is shown above, but does not seem to suggest that the future exists today, and I'm not sure why you would be troubled by my statement's use of "is." Perhaps you could clarify.

Godismyjudge continued:

If you are defining the future as "a set of events that will be" or "a time to come," no I disagree. I would fear a collapse of time into one moment. Cleary [sic] future events to [sic] not exist right now. If you are defining the future as "a set of true future tense propositions," yes I agree with your statement. Statements about the future are true today but the future events don't exist today.

I respond:

Clearly future events are not happening right now. That they have not occurred yet is what makes the (for now) future. Yet your "collapse of time" argument would require that we also deny the existance of a single past, which utter confusion. The events of the past are not happening right now either. Nevertheless, they are real - and we can say truly, and without any error that there is one past.

We can also say that there is one present and one future. In fact, considering history as a whole (past, present, and future), there is but one history, because there is but one God who has ordained history.

Godismyjudge continued:

Beyond the question of the "preexistence" of the future is the question of one future vs. many futures. I will take the liberty of defining the future so this issue can be addressed. Defining the future as a set of events that will be, I would change: "There is a future, one future, and only one future. What that future is, is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it." To: There will be a set of events, one set of events, and only one set of events. What that set of events will be is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it. In this sense only one set of events will be.

I respond:

This formulation has the same dreaded "is" ("What that set of events will be is already known to God ...."). Thus, the same implication follows, namely that what will be is a fixed, certain res. It must be certain, otherwise it could not be ascertainable. Yet it has been ascertained, therefore it is certain. What will be, will be. Nothing else can be, because there cannot be a plurality of futures.

Godismyjudge continues:

But can other sets of events occur? Yes.

I respond:

No - only what has been ascertained can occur. The sense in which other futures are "possible" is only in a hypothetical sense. As above, a future in which the martyr recants etc. is "possible" only in a world in which the martyr loves his life more than Christ - a world that does not exist.

Godismyjudge continues:
These counterfactual sets of events define other possible futures. Many sets of events can be (giving rise to many possible futures), but of those sets of events only one set of events will be (giving rise to one actual future).

I respond:

There are also "possible pasts" in the sense of things that could have been, but were not. Nevertheless, the future is no less certain, fixed, and singular than the past.

Godismyjudge:

This distinction leads to defining future events in a divided and compound sense. Future events in a divided sense are those events which can be and future events in a compound sense are those events that will be.

I respond:

Even so, we could create a divided past (things that could have been) and a compound past (things that were). Or, perhaps more clearly, we can do so with the present, with the divided sense being things other than they are (a hypothetical state) and the compound sense being things the way they are (reality).

The past, the present, and the future are all part of the reality of history: which is known and ordained by God.

-Turretinfan

Godismyjudge has responded to my remarks:

I had written:
To prefer something means to desire it more than something else. Thus, to choose is to express greater desire for one object than another. I hope that helps. Are you now able to answer the question?
Godismyjudge responded:
Yes that helps. Thanks. I am going to parrot back in my own words, my understanding of Calvinistic freewill.

I reply:

That seems like a risky endeavor. Most non-Calvinists who try to present the Calvinist position in their own words fail. Let us hope you have better success.

I had written:

Calvinistic free will simply says that a choice is a determination or judgment by an animate being with respect to one object in preference to another object.

Godismyjudge replied:

Man’s two faculties involved in choice are reason and desire. The two align in a choice. Man has the ability to reach conclusions via reason (your words: determinations or judgments) and desire one thing greater than another (your word: preference).

I reply:

It really looks like you are complicating a rather simple definition that I provided. Your restatement employs philosophical terminology that tends to obfuscate rather than clarify. The term “faculties,” for example, requires definition. What is wrong – if anything – with the simple definition? Why seek to complicate it?

Godismyjudge continued:

I am going to add a little based on my understanding of Calvinism. The results of reason and the object most desired are determined by factors external to man. There might be many steps in the process internal to man. But ultimately there is some external condition which is a sufficient cause of the result. Further, there is a chain of sufficient causes with leads back all the way to God as originator.


I reply:
Again, this complicates matters further by addressing not just what a choice is, but how a choice comes to be. Furthermore, your characterization employs more philosophical terminology, which – again – requires definition. There is really no reason to drag causality into the discussion. Doing so tends to muddy the waters, which clear thinking should be opposed to.

Godismyjudge continued:

Understood in this manor [sic] let’s get back to your original question.


I respond:

I’d rather you didn’t impose those complications into the simply definition already provided. I can’t see any valid reason for complicating things.

I had written:

Why do any of the passages you cited, or the combination of passages, require anything more than a simple, Calvinistic free will?


Godismyjudge responded:

They all do because there is nothing in man to interact with, nothing to test, nothing to discover, no other origin of sin, no will able to choose contrary to God’s will, no source of resistance, no other source of ultimate responsibility.


I respond:
I think you’ve tried to criticize the straw man you set up above with respect to causality, rather than the simple definition I already provided. As such, of course, a detailed response is unnecessary. Instead, I could simply point you to the shorter definition provided above, which – presumably – does not provide the conflict you believe exists.
But as to your specific objections:

  • are you aware that computer games (including one player games) are called interactive entertainment? That suggests that we believe that we can interact with a machine.
  • are you aware that people test cars all the time? That suggests that we can test machines.
  • are you suggesting that an omnipotent being can “discover” in the ordinary sense of the term, i.e. to learn something that was previously unknown? I will agree that my definition above is fully compatible with God being omniscient and, therefore, incapable of discovering new information.
  • you’re wrong about the idea that man cannot choose contrary to God’s will in Calvinism, and it is surprising that you would be unaware of that fact.
  • if on the road ahead, there is a single speck of dust – would we ordinarily speak of that as providing “resistance” to your car? Unless we are doing some kind of engineering analysis, we would not. The contrast between the collective power of all the created order and the power of an omnipotent God is much greater than the speck versus the car, because the car has finite power, but God has infinite power. Nevertheless, Calvinism acknowledges that, in a sense, men do resist God’s will. Furthermore, we humans can build machines that provide resistance – Nautilus ® equipment is an example.


In short, all of your criticisms either make God sub-divine (by denying his omniscience) or absurdly suggest that Calvinism’s man has less capability than a man-made machine. There’s something awry with your analysis.

Furthermore, if you had limited yourself to the definitions I had actually provided, you cannot make those claims that you are making. There is nothing inconsistent between the definitions of choice I have provided and any of the verses your paper mentions.

Godismyjudge had asked:

I presume you think man has the ability to choose as you have defined choice. Could you please define that ability?


I had answered:

Men do make choices. In common parlance, people can only do things that are within their ability. Accordingly, using that common parlance sense of the term, men have the ability to make choices. Given the definitions provided above for choice, it would be absurd to speak of a person choosing what is less desired or unpreferred. The exception, of course, is when one is speaking disjointly - as, for example, when we speak of a martyr choosing death. There is no question that the martyr has the physical ability to speak words of recantation. … What is implied behind those words is “if I desired to.” ….


Godismyjudge replied:

I am not sure how you answered the question. Perhaps you meant as defined by common parlance or perhaps you meant physical ability. The problem with common parlance (which term itself is no longer common parlance, despite Pirates of the Caribbean’s attempts to bring it back) is that terms are used equivocally. You provided an example in which the martyr says he can do otherwise. The same martyr, when asked to recant, might answer “sir, I cannot” meaning I don’t choose to. So the same man might affirm or deny counterfactual ability under common parlance. So a bit more rigor is sometimes required. Putting common definitions foreword in a philosophical discussion often has the result of the author defining things however they want, and claiming to bring the masses along for the ride. Tighter specificity is required in technical discussions and often it’s helpful to find something external to the term (ie not a synonym) to use as a foundation to build from.


I respond:
I have several bones to pick with the comments above.

  • If you don’t like the term “common parlance” because it sounds pompous or piratical, then substitute “ordinary speech.”
  • When a child tells his mother “I cannot” to mean simply that the child chooses not to do something, we would view that child as exaggerating the matter. When a martyr tells the grand Inquisitor, “No, I cannot bow the knee to Mary,” he means that the choice itself is morally impossible for him. He doesn’t just mean that he has already made a choice like the self-willed child – he means that his convictions are so strong that he must choose to serve God and only God.
  • The problem with inserting philosophical words into the discussion is that they have a tendency to confuse people. It’s not necessary to delve into philosophy in order to understand the Calvinistic definition of man’s will – and doing so seems likely to simply amplify confusion.
  • The biggest problem with philosophical definitions is that they are sometimes quite different from the ordinary sense of the terms. It is not that words are being used more precisely, but rather that the words are being used with new and distinct meanings.
  • If you are going to use philosophical terms with particular, technical meanings, expect to be asked to translate those terms into ordinary speech. Also, expect to be called to account for whether you are applying a philosophical definition when an ordinary definition should be used.



Godismyjudge continued:

As for physical ability, that is more specific, but seems to relate to the actions chosen in the context you provided. So I am not sure I understand the answer to the question.

I respond:
Pick a new context, if you like.

Godismyjudge continued:

I asked: Also could you please state if we are able to select the alternative object and I also asked: If we are not able to choose the alternative object in the same sense of ability, but rather in some other sense of ability, please provide that sense. I took your responses as no and we are able to select the alternative in a divided sense, excluding our strongest desire.


I respond:
Looking at my response above, I don’t think that’s an accurate characterization of my response. I think I said it is an absurdity to speak of choosing what we prefer less.

Godismyjudge continued:

This leads me to the problem I have with your definition of freewill. You assume one strongest desire which is in place prior to the choice.


I respond:
In the case of the martyr, that is not an assumption. The desire to live is not as strong as the desire to honor God, before the rack is racked, before stake is placed in the town square – before the martyr is required to choose between his life and his Lord. To deny that it is, is truly bizarre.

Godismyjudge continued:

Choice relates to alternatives (ie two or more objects). The way you explain choice it neither determines, controls or even identifies which desire is strongest. Choice is simply acting on the one object which is desired the strongest. There is no real alternative. You specifically say we are unable to do anything else.


I respond:
Man expresses man’s desires through choice. Choice is not a self-existent thing that sits in man’s temples or forehead. Choice exists in its use. When man chooses something over something else, he is expressing a preference for that something.

To say that “there is no real alternative,” as you do, is simply wrong. The alternative is the unchosen object – the “something else” that is less preferred. In the case of the martyr, it is life with recantation.

I had written:

I can understand "the ability to do X at T requires that nothing prior to T makes X impossible," and recognize that it is based on the premise "impossibility is inconsistent with ability" or in other words, "one can only do that which is possible." There's nothing objectionable about the point that one can only do the possible, and not the impossible. Nevertheless, I don't see much (if any connection) between that and any definition of necessity.



Godismyjudge responded:

I place counterfactuals within the realm of ability. If something is necessary, counterfactuals are impossible.


I respond:
I assume that this is an answer fraught with philosophical terms. Before I respond, please define:

  1. counterfactuals
  2. ability
  3. necessary
  4. impossible


If you had meant just the ordinary sense of the terms, the reply would be that “counterfactual” information is explicitly outside the realm of reality. Only factual information is within the realm of reality.

I had written:

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see Freddoso’s definition of “causal necessity” in your article. Perhaps you could provide me that definition?

Godismyjudge responded:

Freddoso uses the term necessity of nature. In his explanations he uses the phrase “causes operative at moment T.”


I respond:
I’m not sure I’m any closer to understanding Freddoso is trying to say. What does “necessity of nature” mean? What does the phrase “causes operative at moment T” refer to?

I had written:

My statement is shown above, but does not seem to suggest that the future exists
today, and I’m not sure why you would be troubled by my statement's use of “is.”
Perhaps you could clarify.

Godismyjudge replied:

“Is” means that something exists today. We seem to agree that the events of the future don’t exist today, nor the time of the future exist today. But events that will be or time that will be are the normal definitions of the future (common parlance).


I reply:
It is perfectly ordinary to speak of certain (concrete, pre-known) events in the future using the verb “is.” For example:
1 Samuel 20:18 Then Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the new moon: and thou shalt be missed, because thy seat will be empty.

The translators supplied “is” there – not because they were Calvinists, but because it is normal to speak of the future in that way, without suggesting that the new moon is already occurring today.

Furthermore, the criticism you have made would also apply to the past. Those events are not occurring at the moment, but we can still recognize the reality of the past and say that “There is one past, and only one past – and there can be no other past.

Thus, your emphatic “exists today” is a mistaken claim about the usage of “is.” That is certainly once sense in which the verb can be used, but it is obviously not the exclusive sense of the term.

Godismyjudge continued:

I provided a more technical definition, but using these common ones we have:

P1: TF says “There is a future” [Edit by TF: also “There is a past,” and “There is a present.”]

P2: is means exists today [Edit by TF: but sometimes “is” just conveys existence, see above.]

P3: future means events that will be [Edit by TF: “future” refers to events that have not occurred yet, just as “past” refers to events that have already occurred, and “present” refers to events that occurring.]

C1: therefore, there exists today events that will be (P1, P2, P3) [Edit by TF: and if this logic is correct, “there exists today events that have already occurred” and “there exists today events that are occurring”]

P4: if there exists today X, X exists today [Edit by TF: this seems to be a question of syntax. The reason for this is clearly to change “There is a future,” into “A future is.” The former makes sense in English, the latter does not. Syntactically we can reject this premise.]

C2: events that will be exists today (C1, P4) [Edit by TF: “events that
have not occurred yet” exist today would be a better way of saying it. As
noted above, this is a syntactically stilted way of phrasing the matter.
The better way to phrase it is, “as of today there are events that have
not yet occurred.” (as well as events that have already occurred, and events
that are occurring.)]

P5: the passage of time requires that that which will be does not exist today (edit by TF: this is the heart of the argument – see below)

C2: time is incompatible with TF’s statement (C2, P5)


I respond:

Is the second coming of Christ a real event?
Is it an event that is occurring now?
Is it an event that has occurred already?
Is it an event that will occur?

The answer, of course, is that it is an event that will occur. That is what makes it part of the future. The content of what is past and what is future is what changes with the passage of time.

The future is the set of all events that have not yet occurred, but will occur.
The past is the set of all events that have already occurred.
The present is the set of all events that are occurring.

All three parts of history are equally real. Only the past is known to us. We are discovering the present, but by the time we process it (because we are finite) it is already the past.

It is as proper to say “There is a future, and only one,” as to say “There is a past, and only one,” even though – technically – the past events have already gone and the future events have not yet come.

In other words, all this quibbling over the use of the word “is,” is simply a smokescreen, a distraction from the real issue: the reality and singularity of the future. It proves too little (by simply proving what we all agree – that future events are, by definition, not occurring right now) and too much (by attempting to discredit the use of the term “is” in conjunction with the future, it also must discredit the use of the term “is” with respect to the past). In short, it is an invalid criticism of the statement.

Godismyjudge had written:

There will be a set of events, one set of events, and only one set of events. What that set of events will be is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it. In this sense only one set of events will be.

I had responded:

This formulation has the same dreaded “is” (“What that set of events will be is already known to God ....”). Thus, the same implication follows, namely that what will be is a fixed, certain res. It must be certain, otherwise it could not be ascertainable. Yet it has been ascertained, therefore it is certain. What will be, will be. Nothing else can be, because there cannot be a plurality of futures.


Godismyjudge responds:

God’s knowledge and not the events exist today. As for the implications a full analysis and resolution is provided in my article.


I reply:
There are plenty of problems with your article that I will address in due course. Nevertheless, the point remains. The future is simply “the set of events that will be.” Yet one can (and even you do) use that quantity (“the set of events that will be”) together with a present tense form of the verb “to be.” Thus, your criticism applies just as much to your own position.

Furthermore, fundamentally, the idea that there is a definite, concrete set of events that will be – only one such set – is the primary feature of Calvinism that is objectionable to the average reader. There is no chance that things will be otherwise than foreseen – God’s righteousness depends on it.

Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.


I had written:

only what has been ascertained can occur. The sense in which other futures are “possible” is only in a hypothetical sense. As above, a future in which the martyr recants etc. is “possible” only in a world in which the martyr loves his life more than Christ - a world that does not exist.



Godismyjudge replied:

This is either based on collapsing time or the assumption discussed in the article: namely the basis of truth of future tense statements must exist at the time the statements are true.


I reply:
As noted above, the “collapsing time” argument itself collapses when we consider the past. We can speak of “what could have been,” but those hypothetical pasts are possible only in a hypothetical sense. “If things had been different …” is the way that this counter-reality is described. The “basis of truth of future tense statements” argument is a philosophical mess that demands some untangling. However, I guess that will have to wait until I line-by-line your article.

Godismyjudge continued:

Under your view, something prior to the martyr’s actions renders the martyr’s act necessary. There is an implied preceding basis of truth. In my view, the martyr’s future actions are the basis of truth of future tense statements about the martyr’s actions.


I reply:
I’ll politely decline to adopt your characterization of my position. I assume you are using “necessary” in an as-yet-undefined philosophical sense. As such, of course, I would decline to adopt something undefined and potentially meaningless.

I had written:

we could create a divided past (things that could have been) and a compound past (things that were). Or, perhaps more clearly, we can do so with the present, with the divided sense being things other than they are (a hypothetical state) and the compound sense being things the way they are (reality).


Godismyjudge replied:

Agreed. But as per the article, the past & present have additional considerations, namely causal closeness.


I reply:
Again, it seems you want to jump away from existence to causation. “Causal closeness” is obviously a philosophical term.

The bottom line, however, is that I’m no closer to figuring out why anything more than the simple Calvinistic definition of “free will” is required from the texts you provided. I’m also not any closer to figuring out what your definition of “free will” is, or to identifying what you mean by “necessity.”

-Turretinfan

Tuesday, April 10, 2007

John 3:16 - FreeGrace

John 3:16 says

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As this verse clearly states, the purpose of God giving His Son was to save the particular group of people known only to God referred to here as "whosoever believeth in him."

FreeGrace, an internet poster, has challegened this view, claiming that John 3:16 indicates that God has made salvation possible for everyone (his exact words were: "God has made a way for all men to be saved").

FreeGrace is welcome to comment here and defend his view against the brief Scriptual exegesis presented above.

-Turretinfan

UPDATE:

FreeGrace seems to think I have mistaken him for an internet poster with the handle "Ezra."

I have not: Here's FreeGrace's comment: "There was no error. It has always been your understanding of the text that doesn't agree with the plain words of the text. Ezra's point that God has made a way for all men to be saved through Christ is true, although that contradicts your pov. "
Here's a link as proof of FreeGrace's amnesia:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=2312201

FreeGrace continues:
What TF doesn't mention here is his view that the first part of Jn 3:16 refers to "the believing ones" in the second part of the verse, yet he gives no exegetical reason to do so.

I respond:
Well, actually, as far as the comments above, go, FreeGrace is right.
Allow me to remedy with the same exegetical reason that I've provided before:

The "For ... that ..." is what ties the two halves the of the verse together.

FreeGrace continues:
IOW, he thinks "world" refers only to believers, and that God doesn't love everyone in the world.

I respond:

On the contrary, I just think that God loves the elect in a particular, special way that is different from the way in which he loves the rest of His creation. Nevertheless, here, "world" which can mean lots of different things in Scripture, is referring to the world generally (i.e. elect from both Israel and the Nations). This becomes clear when it is seen what God does based on the love: he sends his Son to save all the believing ones ("whosoever believeth").

FreeGrace continues:
For him, it's just "fact". Yet, every English translation has captured the essence of the verse in translating "the believing ones" as "whosoever believes", indicating that whoever in the world that believes will be saved.

I respond:
Obviously, I do view the sense of the passage as a fact. Furthermore, the English translation "whosoever believeth" is exactly correct, for it means the same thing as "all the believing ones," which is a more direct, but awkward, translation.

Furthermore, it is not true that every English translation renders it the same way - or that every English translation uses "whosoever" instead of "every one" or "everyone" or "all." One wonders whether FreeGrace will need proof of this statement.

FreeGrace wrote:
This verse does demonstrate that God has made salvation available for everyone who believes in His Son.
I respond:
This is a classic quasi-Arminian assertion - but it simply is not true. God did not make salvation "available" to them, and it was not His purpose to do so. Christ SAVED His people from their sins, and God's purpose in sending Jesus was to SAVE, not to make salvation "available" or merely possible.

-Turretinfan

1 Timothy 2:4

I Timothy 2:4 states:

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What does that mean?

In context, it means that God has decreed to save men from every social eschelon - including kings (see vs. 2), thus, we should not hesitate to pray for all classes of men.

FreeGrace, an internet poster whom I've encountered previously, has a different view. I invite him to explain his different view here.

-Turretinfan

Saturday, April 07, 2007

Response to Dave Barry

Today, April 7, 2007, the New York Daily News republished a "classic" Dave Barry column.

Among many other things, Dave Barry wrote regarding the televangelists available in South Florida on a 24 hour televangelism cable channel:


But as entertaining as these shows are, their message tends to be somewhat repetitive ("God loves you! So send us money!"), whereas on your local TV news shows, they're always surprising you with dramatic new issues that you should be nervous about.

Sadly, Mr. Barry, you do hear that message a lot. I know you are a humor columnist, and that you may not (no, certainly do not) even take your own column seriously. Nevertheless, your comic oversimplification demonstrates what people hear.

It's not the message of the Bible.

The message you should be hearing, Mr. Barry, is this:

  • All men, yourself included, were created by God.
  • As Creator, God demands that you follow the moral law.
  • He has given you a general sense of this moral law in your conscience. That's why, when you lie to someone, you have that icky feeling afterwards. Deep down, you know that it is wrong.
  • Whether or not you still hear your conscience, God wrote down those moral laws in summary form in stone and gave them to Moses. I'm sure you're well aware of this fact, Mr. Barry, since you live in the U.S. where people have virtually all heard of the ten commandments.
  • Because you have broken at least one of those laws in some form or another, God's position is that you deserve to die not just now on Earth, but for all eternity in Hell. I recognize that this is not what the "big-haired" (your words) folks tend to emphasize.
  • That's very bad news.
  • Nevertheless, things are not hopeless. If you trust in God, if you repent of your sins (your violations of His moral laws), if you confess them to Him, and beg Him to forgive you, He will. God is a merciful God. He shows mercy unto those who come to Him for mercy.
  • But go to Him quickly, and seek salvation from Him. Pray to Him that he will forgive your sins.
  • If you trust in Him, He will save you.

And, Mr. Barry, if you do not already trust in Him, I urge you to do so, sir. For when you pass on, it will be too late, and life is fleeting.

-Turretinfan

Thursday, April 05, 2007

Spanking Debate - Open Challenge

Open Challenge
to any professing Christian
on
Spanking

Scripture, Historical Christianity, and especially Reformation theology are clear:

If you love your children, you will spank your children.

There are modernist in the church who are seeking to deny this, to assert that is wrong for parents to hit their children, or the like.

I hereby challenge any professing Christian to a debate on the topic of spanking.

I offer this affirmative thesis that I will defend:

Scripture commands parents to spank their children as a general rule when the children deserve such a spanking, it is hatred of one's child to refuse to follow this rule, and such an understanding is the consistent teaching of virtually all pre-modern Christian exegetes who have addressed the issue.

If you are interested in debating this topic (or a subpart of the topic), either comment on this post, or send me an email. You can access my email through my profile, which is linked on the left side of this blog.

I don't expect to get any serious offers from anti-spanking advocates, because - frankly - Scripture and History are clear on these issues. Nevertheless, if there is an overwhelming response, I'll let those anti-spanking advocates who post here pick a spokesman by a democratic process, and then they can all pile on with comments.

The proposed format is:

I will present a < 5000 word opening statement.
The anti-spanking advocate will present a < 5000 word opening statement.
I and the anti-spanking advocate will take turns asking questions for up to 20 questions each ( 500 word per question limit for questions and 2500 word per answer limit for answers).
The anti-spanking advocate will present a < 5000 word conclusion statement.
I will present a < 5000 word conclusion statement.
Then we will each take questions from the public, with the same question/answer word limits and with the public choosing who the primary answerer will be.

  • Any takers?

-Turretinfan

The Canon Votes at Trent

One Roman Catholic apologist has made a claim regarding a vote at Trent regarding the Canon of Scripture.

A few websites state that the Council of Trent voted 24 aff/ 15 neg/ 16 abstain to adopt the canon of the Old Latin Vulgate version of the Bible. It's interesting that the dogmatized view did not command a majority vote (only a plurality vote) on the topic. It really makes one wonder what goes through the minds of Roman Catholics who adopt Trent's definition as infallible.

So far, I cannot see any other references to votes on the topic of the canon that were made at Trent.

Can anyone point me to more information?

-Turretinfan

UPDATE:

RCC apologist's claim: "From these we see that the bishops at Trent were not silent about their silence on this question. They had a discussion about it. At the end of that discussion, they took a vote. This is a matter of record, not of interpretation. On March 29, 1546 the Council Fathers took up the fourth of fourteen questions (Capita dubitationum) on Scripture and Tradition. At issue was whether those books that were not included in the official list, but were included in the Latin Vulgate (e.g. The Book of Esdras, Fourth Ezra, and Third Maccabees), should be rejected by a Conciliar decree, or be passed over in silence. Only three Fathers voted for an explicit rejection. Forty-two voted that the status of these books should be passed over in silence."

But a primary source:
Paolo Sarpi Istoria del Concilio tridentino ("History of the Tridentine Council), Libro secondo (Second Book), L'edizione volgata approvata in congregazione (The Vulgate edition approved in congregation).

Writes:
La congregazione de' 29 tutta fu consummata sopra il quinto articolo, perché avendo parlato i teologi con poca risoluzione e col rimetter al voler della sinodo, a quale appartiene far i statuti, i padri ancora erano ambigui. (emphasis added)

The point that I'm drawing from this is that Sarpi claims that enitre 29th day (of March 1546) was consumed with discussion of the fifth (quinto) article.

No mention is made in Sarpi of any vote taking place on 29 March 1546.

Furthermore, from the same book, chapter "Il canone de' libri sacri stabilito, e si tratta della traslazione latina" (The canon of Holy Scripture established ...)

Sarpi writes:
"Il dí 15, proposte le tre formule, se ben ciascuna ebbe chi la sostentò, la terza però fu approvata dalla maggior parte. Nelle seguenti congregazioni parlarono i teologi sopra gli altri articoli, e molta differenza fu nel terzo sopra la translazione latina della Scrittura tra alcuni pochi che avevano buona cognizione di latino e gusto di greco, et altri nudi di cognizione di lingue."

The point I'm making here is that the 15th day of March is the day, according to Sarpi, when the canon of Scripture was established. Likewise, there is no mention in Sarpi of any such vote either on the 15th nor in the interim until the 29th as discussed above.

Here's a woodcut of Sarpi:



-Turretinfan

Tuesday, April 03, 2007

The Epistle of James

Some, following Luther, have questioned whether James is part of Scripture.

I take the view that it is part of Scripture, as do virtually all the Reformers after Luther and all the Reformers before Luther.

An objector asserted various points against James.

1) That it contradicts Paul's epistles and can only be reconciled by mental gymanstics.

2) That it was not relied upon for the first 400 years of the church.

3) That James was notoriously anti-Pauline, citing the proceedings of the council of Jerusalem.

I disagree with each of these contentions.

In terms of early use of James' epistle in the church, Irenaeus (died 202), "Against Heresies" Book IV, Chapter XVI quotes James 2:23.

In terms of reconciling James and Paul, James speaks of justifying oneself in the eyes of men ("show me thy faith") whereas Paul speaks of justification before God ("... by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." ... "if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." ... "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,"). Thus, Paul explains the importance of faith in salvation, and James explains a way to identify whether we and others have faith (and therefore have been saved), teaching what the Lord taught: "by their fruits ye shall know them." After all, the engrafted word will bear fruit in us.

As it is written "... the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

I'm not sure if the objector views that as gymnastics - but I don't think it is.

As for the council of Jerusalem, we see James' instruction in Acts 15:20 of what to write. We see it being written in Acts 14:29 (with an assertion that it is inspired in verse 28), and we see confirmation that it was written in Acts 21:25 and we see Paul confirming by deed his submission to the Holy Spirit in Acts 21:24-26.

In fact, while Paul was not afraid to oppose Peter and to record his opposition in Scripture, there is no record of Paul and/or Barnabus opposing the council. Instead, we see that they were sent out by the council (headed by James) and they came back and reported back to the council.

So, I do respectifully disagree with the objections, and I do not believe that they are factually supported.

Nevertheless, I welcome any comments.

May the God of peace bless all of us,

-Turretinfan

P.S. Today, James Swan has posted an interesting article that touches somewhat on this issue, and is worth reading:

http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1892

Thursday, March 29, 2007

Anti-Calvinist Emir Caner Question Answered

Emir Caner, in a recent sermon, asked:

If God could have saved all mankind apart from man's decision, why didn't He?

I respond:

This is a typical Anti-Calvinist question, though not a particularly thoughtful one. The answer that it is intended to provoke is:

"Because He doesn't want to save all mankind!"

To which the Anti-Calvinist will then exuberently (and mistakenly) respond:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And then the Anti-Calvinist will say that this proves that God does want to save all mankind.

Problems arise from this rebuttal:

1) If the rebuttal is correct, what has been shown? Is the reason provided wrong or is the assumption that God could save man apart from man's decision?

2) If the reaon provided is what is wrong, what is the real reason?

3) If the assumption that God could save man apart from man's decision is wrong, then (a) how does that imply anything other than a less-than-omnipotent God, and (b) shall we conclude that those who cannot make decisions (e.g. babies and the mentally challenged) are lost?

4) And, of course, the "not any" and "all" refer to the "us" in "us-ward" i.e. the elect.


Emir Caner also asks:
If it didn't take a response from us, why did God, in his sovereignty, in his providence, if it is independent of us, and he would place faith inside of us and change us and we couldn't say no, why didn't He do it with all mankind?
I respond:

This is essentially the same question, and has essentially the same answer expected.

And the point of Emir Caner's question becomes clear, it is his position that God can't save us without a response from us. Emir Caner's conception of God is something sub-omnipotent. The idea of God saving a free creature without the free creature's prior consent is something that Emir Caner cannot even begin to imagine. Yet it is what the Bible teaches.

Emir Caner then asks:
Does He somehow get more glory by us burning in hell?

I respond:

Try painting the word "glory" in white paint on a white canvas. Now try painting the same word in the same color paint on a black canvas. Does the black canvas or the white canvas better show the word "glory"? If someone will say that the black canvas does, will we reply then that God prefers the color black, and that to maximize the visibility of "glory" God should paint it in black letters on a black canvas? Of course not.

God is glorified in some men burning in hell, and in some men feeding on the lamb.

But what an anthropocentric question is Emir Caner's question!

Why not ask: Is God glorified in His only begotten Son dying on the Cross for sin?!

Yet, the answer is still yes! God sacrificed His son for the eternal life of some of humanity, namely "all believing ones" per John 3:16.

What else does the question reveal? Emir Caner apparently believes that men going to hell brings God less glory than them going to heaven, and that men decide which way to go. Thus, men have power of God to rob Him of His glory. That truly shows you how weak Emir Caner's view of God is.

-Turretinfan

UPDATE:

In fairness to Emir Caner, I should address as well what he submits to the audience after those questions. Emir Caner states:

I would submit that our Lord loves us enough that he allows us to be receptive to or reject.


There are two objections to this answer.

First, God does not just "allow" men to be receptive, as though He gives them permission, God enables some men and women to be receptive to the gospel. For example, God opened Lydia's heart in Acts 16:14

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Job too acknowledged the God could soften his heart in Job 23:16:

Job 23:16 For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Some folks may object that these verses are not talking about salvation, and I would willingly conceded such a point to such contentious folks. I would allow, for the sake of the argument, that these verses are speaking of something totally different from salvation. Nevertheless, the point is that God does make people receptive and Lydia is an example, and God can (He has the ability to) soften the heart of man.

That's the first half of the objection, that God makes men receptive: that He raises men from spiritual death and open their spiritual ears, as the Psalmist writes:

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

And if some will insist that the Psalmist is referring only to God opening the lobe of the ear with an awl (as was done to servants who loved their masters), then we will point them to the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

And we will point out that this closed-earness is the natural state of man:

Isaiah 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

The second half of the objection is "God loves us enough to allow us ... to reject him"? That's like saying a mother loves her child enough to allow him to plunge off the edge of a cliff, to fall into a bonfire, or the like. Allowing a child to perish is not (itself) an expression of love for that child.

God is not expressing His love toward a person in the act of passing over that person for salvation. God is expressing His special love toward a person in saving a person. God can and does also express love toward those He does not save, but it is not the same love.

It is truly absurd, when one stops to think about it, to say what Emir Caner said, but it has become so routine in anti-Calvinist churches to make such statements, that the audience listening to Caner didn't collective reply "Say WHAT? God loves them so much He lets them perish?" They should be shocked by such a doctrine, and yet many have been desensitized to the utter confusion of it.

-Turretinfan

Wednesday, March 28, 2007

Persecution Update

I previously noted that I had been restricted from discussing Calvinism on a suite of allegedly Christian web sites. I've now been asked by the same suite of web sites not to discuss the Love of God because it is a Calvinist doctrine.

In an interesting twist, I had posted a quotation from the email that had been provided indicating that I would not be allowed to discuss any Calvinist doctrines, but the post was vandalized by the site's administration, and I was informed in a PM that I should not let people know the contents of emails that are sent to me.

While I'm glad that folks recognize that it is a Calvinist doctrine, it's sad to see the antipathy of men against the truth.

Nevertheless, Praise be to the Lord that we are persecuted for and commanded not to speak the truth! For so persecuted they the prophets and apostles before us!

By the way, I will still post about God's Love here on this blog.

Praise be to our loving Father!

-Turretinfan

P.S. Here is a link to a cached version of the page (this will soon expire ...).

Monday, March 26, 2007

Challenge to Anti-Calvinists: Author of Sin / Author of Salvation

Challenge to Anti-Calvinists:
Author of Sin / Author of Salvation

Many Anti-Calvinists claim that Calvinistic theology makes God the author of sin. Calvinists routinely deny this charge, and explain the difference between being merely a cause of sin, and being the doer of sin.

Too often, however, the focus of the rebuttal is simply on answering the false charge that Calvinism makes God the author of sin. What we sometimes forget is that there are implications to the anti-Calvinist's charges.

They say that if sin happens because God ordained it, then God, not man, is the author of sin.

CHALLENGE
IF you, as an anti-Calvinist make that argument, then answer this:
If that's the standard by which you decide authorship of sin, how do you attribute to God authorship of Salvation, in a way that does not make God the author of sin?

Argument 1) You may say, God is the author of Salvation, because He makes Salvation possible, by giving man a free will and the opportunity to be saved.

Response 1) But God also made Sin possible, by giving man a free will and the opportunity to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Argument 2) You may say, God is the author of Salvation, because Jesus' work is the basis of salvation.

Response 2) I respond:
a) that means that you define authorship one way to attack Calvinism, and another way to define your own doctrine;
b) isn't Jesus' work only part of the basis of salvation in your theology? After all, His work was supposedly for everyone, but not everyone is saved. That means that there is something else that is also a part of salvation: man's free will. Thus, if being a part of the process entitles one to authorship, then God is not "the" but only "an" author of salvation in your theology.
c) if you say that God is the author because he does the first thing along the path to salvation, then isn't God also the author of the rejection of His Son (by that standard) since he also does the first thing along that path, in your system?

Argument 3) God is neither the author of Sin or Salvation.

Response 3) I respond:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Praise be to the Author and Finisher of our Faith!

-Turretinfan

Regulative Principle of Worship

I have agreed to do a blog-based debate of the Regulative Principle of Worship. I will update this blog with more details as the debate progresses. Timothy, this means that I will probably have a bit of delay in responding to your comments regarding the Lord's Supper. Nevertheless, certain aspects of the debate may touch on Roman Catholic issues, and I certainly plan to explain how a consistent Reformed worldview (as contrasted with a Roman Catholic worldview) ought to embrace the Regulative Principle, although my debate opponent will be a Reformed apologist who does not, to my knowledge, currently embrace the Regulative Principle.

Here's a link to the debate, for which my opening statement has been made:

http://q-and-a-blog.blogspot.com/

Any comments, questions, and especially criticisms are welcome.


Since you bothered to come to this blog, here's a couple extra links for further reading on the subject:

http://www.reformed.com/pub/sola.htm

http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1998HartDebate.htm

And here's one slightly critical view in a four-part series. I don't plan to directly respond at this time, and I don't know whether it is this line that Centuri0n, with whom I'm debating, will be taking this poster's line:

http://aspiringtheologian.blogspot.com/search/label/Worship

And here's a link to a very low quality presentation of an attempted rebutal of RPW by a supporter of the Normative Principle of Worship (NPW) using the typical, ad hominem arguments and failing either positively to establish NPW, or to address the standard RPW rebuttals of the arguments presented.

http://www.training-resources.org/regulative_worship.htm

I trust that Centuri0n will present something much more thoughtful, and I look forward to the debate.

May God's blessing rest on all who pass by,

-Turretinfan

UPDATE:

My conclusion is posted here:
http://q-and-a-blog.blogspot.com/2007/04/conclusion-of-regulative-principle.html

I will try to edit this page (or similar pages here) to provide links for further information for folks who are wondering about the topic.

Friday, March 23, 2007

Love-Based Discipline

Love-Based Discipline
a Scriptural Alternative to
so-called
Grace-Based Parenting


There is a movement afoot in some circles (circles that call themselves Christian) that refers to itself as "Grace-Based Parenting." This movement is evil for at least four major reasons: it perpetuates a confused view of grace, it prohibits what God commands, it adopts modernism over Scripture, and it implicitly calls God's Holiness into question.

The view of grace in "Grace Based Parenting" movement is a typical anti-Calvinist view of grace. It disassociates favor from the basis for bestowing the favor. As a result, it condemns Biblical forms of discipline (e.g. chastening and rebuke).

The error seems to spring from an unscriptural world-view in which God is portrayed as an omnibenevolent Santa-Claus who begrudgingly and with tears flowing down His cheeks punishes those who force Him to do so.

When you look to what Old Testament believers thought Scriptural discipline was, you'll see what was practiced among the Puritans. Check out, for example, Sirach 30:1-13 (in the King James Version or Geneva Bible, some of the other versions number differently). It's not the Bible, but it is a good historical view of the sense of Proverbs' child-rearing instructions that was held by historical believers.

Praise be that our Father is not loathe to chasten us!

What I propose as an alternative to so-called GBP is love-based discipline. Love-based discipline includes nipping the seed of wickedness in the bud. When a child disobeys, the child is punished. The severity of the disobedience dictates the severity of the punishment. The punishment should not be overly austere, but it should be physical and it should be unpleasant. It should not be disfiguring. As a child grows in understanding, a word of rebuke may be sufficient, but it would be foolishness to treat infants as though they are wise. Care should be taken to impose such physical instruction out of love for the child, not out of anger at the personal offense caused by the disobedience. When possible, the physical instruction should be performed by the father. Because Scripture is clear that parents are to love their children, and because Scripture is clear that physical instruction is to be an expression of that love, loved-based discipline should - in its generalities - bind the conscience, and is an appropriate basis upon which to judge whether a man, a father, is qualified for the office of bishop/elder or for the office of deacon.

1 Timothy 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Now, let us examine the four great evils of GBP.



I. GBP Confuses Grace

GBP issues from an anti-Calvinist view of grace. Note that I do not mean to suggest that the people involved are themselves all anti-Calvinists. I means that the so-called "Grace-based Parenting" movement springs from that mindset.

The grace of God restrains the wickedness of man, and it does so using both external and internal means. The outward and ordinary means is by which the grace of God restrains the wickedness of men is fear of punishment, as taught by Romans 13:3.

Furthermore, it is not God's love per se that changes the heart: but God's regeneration.

Nevertheless, when we sin God chastens us. Paul tells us so.

Some GBP supporters claim that they are modelling God's grace, revealed in the New Testament. This is mistaken. God's grace is based on Jesus being beaten (and ultimately killed) in our place. Unless a GBP supporter is planning on receiving beatings in the place of their child, they cannot accurately model God's grace for them.

I bring up the crucifixion, because God's grace is without cost to us, but it is not free to God. Grace is on the basis of the agency and instrumentality of Christ ("in Christ" as Ephesians 1 puts it). Someone suggested that we are to model God's grace: but I doubt that they meant they will punish their first born child for the errors of all of their after-adopted children, or bear the sins of their children for the children (as Christ suffered and died in our place "for us").

Furthermore, it should be noted that it is because of the crucifixion that God treats us like children: with love spanking us - not for his own gratification or for the redemption of sins, but for our benefit and sanctification. After all, exercise of the rod teaches obedience to the fifth commandment, as Scripture teaches in Hebrews 12:9.

Indeed, a proper model of Christ's work must include the substitution of a victim for the sinner.

One GBP supporter wrote:

I don’t know what you believe, but I believe that Christ’s work on the cross paid the price for all those whom God has chosen to be his children. To even suggest that my children’s sins need to be punished when Christ has already atoned for them is heresy.


This GBP supporter is mixing the metaphor/simile. If they are modeling God's grace, they are God and their child is the sinner, but (in Isaac's words) where is the lamb? We both know the lamb is Christ, but there is no analogy to the Lamb of God in the GBP model.

My point is that they are not modeling God's grace - they are imatating the favourable treatment God gives to those whose sins are covered (which is only one part of the whole picture).

Furthermore, God still disciplines his children (even as he chastened the elect nation of Israel in the Old Testament) for their sanctification, as Paul clearly teaches. Whether we refer to that as punishment or discipline may be an important distinction, but call it whatever you like, it includes chastening/scourging according to Paul. It is not for God's satisfaction - He is satisfied by Christ's work - but for our benefit. If we want to model the grace of God, we can do so by following His example of chastening/scourging the children we love. That is why I refer to loving discipline that includes, when appropriate and as appropriate, both rebuke and chastisement.

If you check out the commentaries of John Gill and Matthew Henry (both of whose writings are freely available), I think you'll find that argue that the way grace is taught is by the law (i.e. the rod teaches children their need of grace, and is a means of grace toward them): we receive punishment for doing wrong, and it helps us recognize our depraved condition, our inability to satisfy divine justice, and our need for a Savior.

Furthermore, covenant children, as part of the visible church, ought to receive loving discipline, which is one of the blessing of the covenant.

Based on the covenant, one may have hope for one's children's salvation. Nevertheless, one must recognize that one's own faith is no absolute guarantee that one's physical children are numbered among the 144,000 (look at Abraham).

Surely the GBP supporter must have meant something else by their comment regarding whether their children have Christ as Redeemer. I am also confident that they would not charge me with heresy for suggesting that anyone who is not trusting in Christ alone for salvation should be in fear of hellfire on account of their unjustified state.


GBP Prohibits What God Commands
Also note, that I trust that the Reformed folk reading are involved are capable of reading the various Scriptural instructions on the topic of child-rearing. I have yet to see any Reformed exegete arrive at some other view than that chastening and rebuke are mandatory aspects of loving parenting.

Indeed, if fathers do not chasten/scourge their children, they are acting as though those children have some other father. This is reasonably inferred from Paul's comments. Those children are being denied the full blessings of the covenant.

Some GBP supporters make a cultural objection. These objectors seem to suggest that the "rod" comment in Proverbs may be culture-bound. However, they also typically recognize that spanking is part of our culture today (after all, that's why their movement exists, to spread what they like to term "positive discipline") . Thus, their culture-bound argument fails at its core.

In another sense, though, they may be right. I doubt many would suggest that Proverbs means we must use a rod as the implement and that - say - a belt, wooden spoon, or open hand is inappropriate; just as most would likely permit the Japanese to greet each other with a Holy bow, and us with Holy handshakes (and increasingly, I've noticed, hugs). The accidents may change, but the concept of unpleasant (to the recipient) corporal discipline remains the same.

Another GBP support noted that Islam supports bodily discipline and even discusses it at great lengths. One would assume that any Reformed person would understand that spanking is not made wrong because it is practiced (to an extreme) by some Muslims any more than that modesty is made wrong because it is practiced (to an extreme) by some Muslims.

That is not to say that the only aspect of discipline is physical instruction. If the reader comes away thinking that my position is discipline = spanking (i.e. that there is nothing else to discipline except spanking), it is only because I am responding to the error of GBP that excludes spanking from discipline. If one reads more carefully, one will see that I include other things, such as rebuke, in discipline. Furthermore, though I do not discuss it at length here, there is a priori instruction that is part of discipline. Nevertheless, the departure from orthodoxy that GBP presents is the denial that spanking is part of discipline.


GBP Is Modernism not Adherence to Scripture
I openly challenge any GBP advocate to provide either (a) anyone who viewed the Scripture this way more than 150 years ago, or (b) a consistent exegesis of Scripture that arrives at the GBP view from Scripture, instead of attempting (as a few web sites do) to impose the concept on Scripture.

One supporter of GBP wrote:"I also disagree with your assumption that spanking is a Biblical norm. A modern American Christian cultural norm, but not a Biblical one."

It's not, however, an assumption. There are some rather explicit instructions in Scripture, as virtually all GBP supporters know.

Furthermore, there is nothing "modern" about spanking. As I pointed out, we can confirm from Sirach that those passages were historically taken at face value (i.e. beat with a rod means spank). We can also readily confirm the practice of such discipline in the NT in Paul's writings. We can also see it in the "common law" era of England (post-Runnymeade). I'm abundantly confident that a study of medieval history would turn up the same results in the interim.

Nevertheless, my challenge for the GBP is to find a full Scriptural exegesis for bucking the traditional view of Proverbs 23:13-14.

Just because all believers everywhere for the past 2500+ years (it's a little hard to date Sirach - it claims to be written about one generation after Solomon = 27 generations before Christ) have viewed Proverbs 23 one way does not make it right. Scripture, not tradition, should be our guide.

So far, though, I haven't seen any reason to depart from the teachings of Reformed notables, such as Gill and Henry who view Proverbs 23 in the traditional way, or from Calvin who calls spanking the "common practice of men."

I'm frankly not aware of any Christian author from more than 100 years ago (Reformed or Arminian) who had a different view than that corporal discipline is proper, but should not be done in unrighteous anger, with undue violence, or in an excessively austere manner. If you respect Calvin, I can point you to Calvin. If you respect Wesley, I can point you to Wesley. Name me a respected theologian (even one whose soteriology is a bit out of whack) who has been dead for at least 100 years, and I am confident that I can show you that - if he treated the subject - he did not forbid spanking or stern rebuke.

I challenge anyone who supports the "Grace Based Parenting" movement to show that it is not a modern phenomenon.

Yes, Scripture must be our authorative source of knowledge. Nevertheless, I challenge the GBP movement to show whether there are any Reformed theologians (even today, and even marginally reformed) who support the Grace-Based-Parenting movement with any kind of Scriptural exegesis that I could evaluate and respond to.

Some objectors will point to a discussion by Charles Hodge regarding grace as alleged support for the GBP movement. The typically cited portions of CH do not make any mention of spanking. Furthermore, in CH's Systematic Theology, discussing the fifth commandment, CH points out that capital punishment for disobedient children is no longer required. This would be the perfect place for CH to mention that the historical practice of spanking was also no longer required and/or contrary to New Testament principles. Nothing of the kind can be found.

Nevertheless, we are not left only with an argument from CH's silence. In discussing punishment in his Systematic Theology, CH writes:

It is of course to be admitted, that the good of the offender is often the ground or reason why evil is inflicted. A father chastises a child in love, and for its good. And God, our heavenly Father, brings suffering upon his children for their edification. But evil inflicted for the benefit of the sufferer, is chastisement, and not punishment. Punishment, properly speaking, is evil inflicted in satisfaction of justice.

And in the section on the general offer of the gospel, CH writes:

God pities even the wicked whom He condemns, as afather pities the disobedient child whom he chastises. And as the father can truthfully and with a full heart say that he delights not in the sufferings of his child, so our Father in heaven can say, that He delights not in the death of the wicked.

Hodge speaks for himself and he is right on the money, fully on board with God-honoring love-based parenting. Far from endorsing the GBP rejection of spanking, Hodge maintains the orthodox position that chastening is an essential part of discipline. Hodge does mention other aspects of parenting, but his words should not be wrested from their original sense in attempt to back an innovative departure from orthodoxy.

Some objectors have even claims that the Westminster standards are opposed to physical instruction of children. The Westminster Larger Catechism, however, is pretty clearly pro-chastisement with the question/answer pair 129:

Question 129: What is required of superiors towards their inferiors?

Answer: It is required of superiors, according to that power they receive from God, and that relation wherein they stand, to love, pray for, and bless their inferiors; to instruct, counsel, and admonish them; countenancing, commending, and rewarding such as do well; and discountenancing, reproving, and chastising such as do ill; protecting, and providing for them all things necessary for soul and body: and by grave, wise, holy, and exemplary carriage, to procure glory to God, honor to themselves, and so to preserve that authority which God has put upon them.

Some have apparently disagreed that "chastisement = spanking" in the WLC. Unless such a person means only that there is not a precise identity relationship between the two terms (which is a trivial point), such disagreement is not founded on an historical understanding of the document.

One objector wrote:

What I am trying to say is that just because someone chooses not to use physical punishment or possibility any punishment at all does not necessarily mean that they do not *discipline* *chastise* *correct* *rebuke* *train* or whatever word you want to use.

I respond:

"Chastise" can only still be achieved using some kind of figure of speech, along the lines of "When Tom came back from chasing the chickens around the yard, his mom gave the little rascal a tongue-lashing." No one imagines the mom actually applying her tongue to Tom's back.

Nevertheless, that figurative sense of "chastise" needs to be recognized as figurative. As for the others, yes, there are other wrenches in the tool kits of discipline, correction, and training. Using "rebuke" for physical instruction would seem to be a figurative use in the opposite direction (and not one that I've ever seen).

The objector continued:

Those words are not synonymous with punishment.

I respond:

My point is that godly admonition has a physical component, and that if we omit that component we are not loving our children, but hating them.

The objector further stated:

I am not even trying to say that there is never a time for punishment, maybe even physical punishment but punishment is simply a tool, and far from the only tool, that parents can use to *discipline* *chastise* etc. etc. their children.

I respond:

"Maybe" even physical punishment? Is there any question at all that the verse above is talking about often using physical instruction in a loving way to sanctify our children?

It would be hard for me to imagine an honest, sober exegete answering the question with, "yes, there is doubt."



GBP Implicitly Attacks God's Holiness
When we sin, God chastens us. Paul tells us so. Those who fault chastening as unholy implicitly attack the holiness of God, who chastenes and scourges every son that he loves.

Praise be to our Father in Heaven, whose name is Holy!

-Turretinfan

Objections Answered

Objection One: Seeing Spanking in Scripture Requires Eisegesis

One objector stated: "to read chastisement in the Bible and come away with the concept of hitting a small child on the bottom and/or legs with the hand and/or implement, is doing [sic] reading our own definitions into Scripture, instead of reasoning from Scripture to come to our understanding."

This accusation is way off base.

First, what is clearly taught in Scripture is that is important to discipline children through infliction of physical pain. Any allegation that this is not clearly taught in Scripture should be laughed to scorn.

Second, that the appropriate place to inflict pain is a place that will not cause disfigurement is taught less clearly, but is still taught. Note the teaching in Moses regarding the fact that a master must free a slave whose eye or tooth is lost as a result of physical discipline. Also note that Scripture speaks of the rod being for the back (not face) of a fool.

Third, that the discipline should not be excessively austere is taught by the maximum lash count provision in Moses.

Fourth, young children are not exempt from the general provision. Although care should be taken with respect to application of force to young children (note that circumcision was postponed to the eighth day), there is nothing to suggest that a father is exempt from physically disciplining children of tender years.

An anti-Calvinist mindset might suppose that young children are incapable of actual sin, and, thus, consistently exempt them from sanctifying discipline. However, those who read the Bible will see that the wicked come forth from the womb speaking lies.

Indeed, because they lack understanding, physical discipline is especially appropriate for younger children:

Proverbs 10:13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

And because we know that children are born depraved, we should realize that their hearts are initially not pure but corrupt, thus physical discipline (chastisement) is especially appropriate for them:

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Fifth, as for the implement being an open hand, a rolled up newspaper, a shepherd's crook, a pvc pipe, a brush, a razor strop, a belt, a thin flexible piece of wood, or whatever other instrument is it hand, I suspect most would view "the rod" as being metonymous for any suitable instrument, in view both of "rod and staff" in Psalm 23 and "chastens and scourges" in the New Testament.

Thus, there is no excuse for a godly man to refuse to follow God's example (and the example of all Christians everywhere prior to 150 years ago):

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Objection Two: Louis Berkhof taught a view of grace that supports GBP

As for Berkhof's work, given his view of common grace, I seriously doubt that I will find anything in Berkhof but support for the godly exercise of spanking when appropriate. Nevertheless, I will go back and check what he wrote, and report back.

Clarifications

Let me distinguish:

First) there are some who claim that is not honoring to God when we physically instruct our children. Those people have departed from the historic understanding of Scripture, and have not, as far as I have seen, presented a Scriptural defense of their condemnation of physical instruction. Their views are clearly heterodox.

Second) There are those who simply are saying that there are lots of ways to discipline your children and that physical instruction is not the only wrench in one's Biblical toolkit of discipline. That group is well within the boundaries of orthodoxy, and it would be a rare Christian (historically speaking) who would disagree.

Third) There are a few who say that while we CAN physically correct our children, it ought to be rare and a last resort. This view is tempting, because it seems very gentle (and we Christians are gentle). However, Proverbs instructs us contrary to that:

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Betimes literally means "early" and here it conveys the sense of "often" or "immediately."

-Turretinfan

P.S. Thanks to Centuri0n, I found this timely article on the subject:

http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/04/03/responding-to-christians-who-object-to-spanking/

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

One Holy Catholic (Universal, not Roman) and Apostolic Church

The earliest creeds that we know of, and many of the Reformed confessions (including the Belgic Confession and the Westminster Confession) speak of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The term creates a gag reflex among the faithful these days, because "Catholic" is so widely associated with the oxymoronically titled "Roman Catholic Church."

I think my stances on the apostacy of the Roman Catholic Church, its departure from orthodoxy, and the invalidity of its claim to be a part of the visible church of Christ (because, for one example, of its claim via Vatican II that Muslims worship the same god as the Roman Catholics) are sufficiently well known that no one will get the wrong idea from reading this post.

One pseudo-Reformed web site recently posted an article entitled "Is Independency Possible," and stated that the author has asked independent Christians how they know that they are part of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The web site was, fundamentally, targeting a Reformed preacher in northern Idaho, who was ordained in an irregular way.

The answer that an Independent should give is the same answer that Presbyterians should give. We are part of the Church Universal and Apostolic, because we believe the gospel taught by the apostles and prophets in Scripture, and we associate with others who do the same.

The visible church is the congregation of the outwardly faithful.

We do not appeal to an unbroken succession of bishops/elders as the Roman Catholics vainly attempt. Nor do we assert that there is a sacrament of ordination in which the Apostolic authority is transmitted mysteriously to our bishops/elders by those who went before.

Although ordination by other elders is the ordinary, Biblically exemplary, and best way for elders to be ordained, and although ordination by a presbytery of elders is an excellent implementation of that Biblical principal, there is nothing to prevent a body of Christians in suitable circumstances (for example, if all the elders have been martyred) from ordaining men from among their midst to serve them. The body of Christians (the local church) has been provided by Paul with the guidelines for selection.

For a group, like the website in question, to adopt a sacramental view of ordination is to take a step on the road to Rome. To all such folks, I exhort: Return to the principles of the Reformation! Do not be lifted up with the vanity that corrupted and destroyed the church of Rome - a congregation whose faithful adherence to Scripture was renowned for centuries.

Yes, Independency is possible. There are arguments against independency, but the idea that Independents are outside the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is pseudo-papist propoganda, and nothing more.

Praise be to our glorious King in allegiance to whom the elect everywhere are all united in faith!

-Turretinfan

Thursday, March 22, 2007

A response to the internet poster, "ExaminingCalvinism" regarding Failure

Is the deity
of the Anti-Calvinist
a Failure?

ExaminingCalvinism (EC) has a web page that acknowledges one typical Calvinistic complaint against those who claim that God desires and wants (not in a merely outward sense, but wholy and completely) the salvation of each and every person.

EC quotes Dr. White as saying: “…the Father can seek the salvation of each individual, the Son can die to secure it, and the Spirit come to bring conviction of sin, and yet the entire desire and work of the triune God collapse because of the unwillingness of the sovereign creature, man? Yes, this is indeed Mr. Hunt’s view, and I simply do not understand its appeal to the person who boasts only in the Lord.” (Debating Calvinism, p.332 [emphasis and reference thereto omitted])

EC then begins EC's response with a quotation from Mr. Hunt: “Only Calvinists would say that if His love is rejected, God fails.” (Debating Calvinism, p.332)

EC continues in EC's own words:

Only a Calvinist would be swayed to believe in a doctrine out of pure emotional “appeal.” For the Arminian, the only “appeal” is what the Bible says. God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants. If God wanted to be the author of sin, and enact Deterministic Decrees, then, as God, He has full right to do so.


Let's examine the fundamental issue before taking apart EC's response.

The fundamental issues are this:

1) Is God's entire desire and work to save each and every human being?

The typical Anti-Calvinist's answer would be "yes" if the Anti-Calvinist will give a straight answer. More often then not, the Anti-Calvinist will hem and haw, seeking to avoid answering the question. One tactic is not to respond with a "yes" but simply to quote I Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Corinthians 5:15 or I Timothy 2:5-6. The response to such quotation is: "is that a yes or a no"? After all, if we Calvinists agreed with the Anti-Calvinists regarding the sense of those passages, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

2) Does God's entire desire and work to save each and every human being result in the salvation of each and every human being?

The typical Anti-Calvinist's answer would be "no" if the Anti-Calvinist will give a straight answer. Here they are typically more willing to boldly deny universalism.

Conclusion: God's entire desire and work did not succeed, but failed (at least partially).

If an Anti-Calvinist answers questions one and two with "yes" and "no" respectively, then the conclusion logically follows. It is the enescapable logical conclusion.

As for EC's individual claims:

- "Only a Calvinist would be swayed to believe in a doctrine out of pure emotional “appeal.” "

As illustrated above, the issue is not "pure emotional 'appeal.'" Even if it were, both Calvinists and anti-Calvinists can (and sometimes are) unduly swayed by emotions.

Query: Is EC saying: "Yes God failed, but so what?"

- "For the Arminian, the only “appeal” is what the Bible says. "

It should be that way: but is a deity failing consistent with the clear Biblical teaching regarding God's omnipotence? If so, what the Bible says should make the anti-Calvinist question whether his understanding of the Bible is correct.

- "God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants."

If the anti-Calvinist believes this, and the Anti-Calvinist believe that God does "want" in that sense to "do" the act of saving each and every person, then the result is universalism, not Arminianism or Huntism.

- "If God wanted to be the author of sin, and enact Deterministic Decrees, then, as God, He has full right to do so."

God enacted the Deterministic Decree that Christ be crucified. If that makes God the "author of sin" in EC's definition of the term, so be it. It does not make God the "author of sin" in the traditional sense of the term, or in any sense that matters.

Praise be to God who has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass,

-Turretinfan

Objections Answered

One anonymous poster reponded:

To say that "God has failed" is looking at Arminianism through they eyes of a Calvin. When free-will is applied, it is not a matter of succeeding or failing. God desires all to be saved, and God always makes the first move. At that point, it is man's choice to accept or deny...So, it is not God who has failed, but man.

I respond:

I am well aware of Arminian ideas of libertarian free will, and the Arminian idea of LFW does not change anything in the simple logical conclusion expressed above.

The question is: Does God succeed or fail in getting what He desires?

In a non-universalist anti-Calvinist world-view, the god who wants each and every person to be saved fails to get what he wants. WHY he fails to get what he wants is an important question (and it is one that is answered implicitly in the above objector's comments). The "WHY," however, is subservient to the "THAT."

This objector's works-salvation is showing itself: note how this objector indicates that God makes a first move and then it is man that fails or succeeds. That is a great definition of works-salvation. It is to be contrasted with a salvation in which God is both the author (first mover) and finisher (last mover) of our faith.

Praise be to the Author of our Salvation!

-Turretinfan