Apparently, on September 3, 2009, Harold Hendrick interviewed Ergun Caner (link)(link to mp3).
0:35 Harold Hendrick: "He's the son of a Muslim leader, born in Turkey I believe, right Dr. Caner?"
Ergun Caner: "Yes Sir"
Ergun Caner was born in Sweden.
4:45 Ergun Caner: "Even my country, Turkey, which is sadly trying to be part of the European Union, refuses to admit - you know - refuses to admit what we did - the genocide on the Armenians, which we actually did do, and refuses to admit that honor killings take place in Turkey as well."
There may in fact be "honor killings" in Turkey, and there may be some sense in which Turkey is Caner's country: it's the country where his father and paternal ancestors were born and he may possibly even have received a Turkish passport when he was a child. By itself this statement wouldn't be very objectionable, but in this case it serves to reinforce the previous "Yes sir" to the direct question about being born in Turkey.
-TurretinFan
Friday, March 28, 2014
Thursday, March 27, 2014
Jacques Le Goff - Reflecting on "The Birth of Purgatory"
In The Medieval Imagination, at p. 86, Jacques Le Goff reflects on his earlier work, The Birth of Purgatory (footnote omitted):
It should be clear that Purgatory was not an Apostolic tradition. It was something that developed over time, and developed primarily in the West. There were some early Christians who prayed for the dead, hoping that their sins would be remitted, but keep in mind that some of these were hoping that people would be released from hell.
It is understandable that Christians "believed in the possibility of" or more precisely "hoped for" remission of sins after dead. After all, we ourselves would wish to have such a chance, should we find ourselves in a similar position. Nevertheless, such a belief or hope should not serve as a basis for our doctrine, however. Instead, we should cling to divine revelation.
Purgatory is like many other doctrinal innovations. It can be traced back to a number of lesser precursor errors. Nevertheless, in the final analysis, it plainly is an innovation. The reason there was no vocabulary word purgatorium before the second half of the 12th century was because there was no concept of such a place that needed that name. It's not that the place used to be called something else, it's that - as Le Goff says, there was "a major shift in attitudes and feelings that took place" and consequently there was born "a new geography of the other world and in a new relation between the society of the living and that of the dead."
We ought to reject these innovations, because they are not authentic Christianity: authentic Christianity is based on divine revelation. These doctrines of Purgatory are not apostolic tradition, nor do they become apostolic tradition, simply because some people had hope for posthumous remission of sins before the innovation of these peculiar doctrines.
-TurretinFan
Not long ago I completed several years of work on the birth of Purgatory. From the early days of Christianity Christians have shown by their prayers for the dead that they believed in the possibility of remission of sins after death. But the time, place, and manner of purgation for a long time remained quite vague, despite the suggested solutions to the problem put forward by Clement of Alexandria and Origen in the East, where Purgatory never took hold, and by Augustine and Gregory the Great in the West, where the location of Purgatory was never really defined before the twelfth century, in the final three decades of which the noun purgatorium first emerged. This veritable "birth" of Purgatory can be seen as part of a major shift in attitudes and feelings that took place around the turn of the thirteenth century, resulting in a new geography of the other world and in a new relation between the society of the living and that of the dead.I offer several comments:
It should be clear that Purgatory was not an Apostolic tradition. It was something that developed over time, and developed primarily in the West. There were some early Christians who prayed for the dead, hoping that their sins would be remitted, but keep in mind that some of these were hoping that people would be released from hell.
It is understandable that Christians "believed in the possibility of" or more precisely "hoped for" remission of sins after dead. After all, we ourselves would wish to have such a chance, should we find ourselves in a similar position. Nevertheless, such a belief or hope should not serve as a basis for our doctrine, however. Instead, we should cling to divine revelation.
Purgatory is like many other doctrinal innovations. It can be traced back to a number of lesser precursor errors. Nevertheless, in the final analysis, it plainly is an innovation. The reason there was no vocabulary word purgatorium before the second half of the 12th century was because there was no concept of such a place that needed that name. It's not that the place used to be called something else, it's that - as Le Goff says, there was "a major shift in attitudes and feelings that took place" and consequently there was born "a new geography of the other world and in a new relation between the society of the living and that of the dead."
We ought to reject these innovations, because they are not authentic Christianity: authentic Christianity is based on divine revelation. These doctrines of Purgatory are not apostolic tradition, nor do they become apostolic tradition, simply because some people had hope for posthumous remission of sins before the innovation of these peculiar doctrines.
-TurretinFan
Tuesday, March 25, 2014
Ergun Caner - International Missions Conference 2008
Apparently, on November 2, 2008, Ergun Caner delivered a message to the International Missions Conference 2008 at Forest Baptist Church (link to page)(link to mp3). The message was titled, "Your Mission Call" and Psalm 145 was the text (all times are approximate).
1:15 "I've been preaching for twenty-five years"
That would put his beginning to preach back in 1983.
2:20 "My wife and I are a mixed marriage. My wife is from Haw River, NC, and I am from Istanbul, Turkey."
He's not from Istanbul. He was born in Sweden and grew up in Ohio.
12:00 "I came to this country as a missionary to you - as a Muslim, Turkish, Sunni, Muslim."
He came as a toddler.
24:25 "Do you know who reached me for the gospel? raised as a Muslim, raised as jihadeen, living in a madrassa, coming to America to build mosques, worshiping a false god named 'Allah'?"
There is nothing to suggest that Caner was raised as a jihadi and - as noted above - he came as a toddler.
25:20 "Because if it wasn't for a high school boy, trying to earn his AWANA badge or an RA badge or whatever he was trying to do, I wouldn't be in front of you, I'd be behind you, and up to no good."
This suggestion that Caner would be "up to no good" seems to part of this "jihadi" mystique. But there is no evidence that I've even seen that the Columbus, Ohio Muslims his dad was associated with were jihadists.
25:30 "Jerry Tackett started when I was a freshman in high school and did not stop until I was a senior. Jerry Tackett never took no for an answer. Jerry Tackett didn't care. I played on the soccer team, I played on the basketball team, he played on those teams. I would be praying on my prayer rug in the locker room, look up, and there he's standing."
Soccer yes, basketball no (according to his yearbook).
Also, Caner graduated in 1984 - his senior year was 1983-84. I realize some churches make men preachers who are novices, but that would really be something - if Caner were converted and became a preacher in the fall of 1983. Of course, that still wouldn't fit with his 1982 claims elsewhere.
It's hard to say whether Caner actually said his prayers in the locker room at high school. I would think that would not be the most likely spot for a devout Muslim to pick.
-TurretinFan
1:15 "I've been preaching for twenty-five years"
That would put his beginning to preach back in 1983.
2:20 "My wife and I are a mixed marriage. My wife is from Haw River, NC, and I am from Istanbul, Turkey."
He's not from Istanbul. He was born in Sweden and grew up in Ohio.
12:00 "I came to this country as a missionary to you - as a Muslim, Turkish, Sunni, Muslim."
He came as a toddler.
24:25 "Do you know who reached me for the gospel? raised as a Muslim, raised as jihadeen, living in a madrassa, coming to America to build mosques, worshiping a false god named 'Allah'?"
There is nothing to suggest that Caner was raised as a jihadi and - as noted above - he came as a toddler.
25:20 "Because if it wasn't for a high school boy, trying to earn his AWANA badge or an RA badge or whatever he was trying to do, I wouldn't be in front of you, I'd be behind you, and up to no good."
This suggestion that Caner would be "up to no good" seems to part of this "jihadi" mystique. But there is no evidence that I've even seen that the Columbus, Ohio Muslims his dad was associated with were jihadists.
25:30 "Jerry Tackett started when I was a freshman in high school and did not stop until I was a senior. Jerry Tackett never took no for an answer. Jerry Tackett didn't care. I played on the soccer team, I played on the basketball team, he played on those teams. I would be praying on my prayer rug in the locker room, look up, and there he's standing."
Soccer yes, basketball no (according to his yearbook).
Also, Caner graduated in 1984 - his senior year was 1983-84. I realize some churches make men preachers who are novices, but that would really be something - if Caner were converted and became a preacher in the fall of 1983. Of course, that still wouldn't fit with his 1982 claims elsewhere.
It's hard to say whether Caner actually said his prayers in the locker room at high school. I would think that would not be the most likely spot for a devout Muslim to pick.
-TurretinFan
Reading Like an Egalitarian
Owen Strachan wrote: “The curse bore down upon Eve’s primary activity, childbearing, showing that her intended sphere of labor and dominion-taking was the home (Genesis 3:16).”
Rachel Held Evans responded: “Classic. Root feminine identity in the curse rather than the redemptive work of Christ... .”
I'd call Evans' response unfair, if I thought she was smart enough to figure out what Strachan actually meant.
Strachan's point was simple: each was being cursed in his respective sphere. The curse identifies the spheres, it doesn't define them. Women were made for childbearing before the curse, but the curse made that a burden to them. And keeping in mind Christ's redemptive work, the Apostle writes: "she shall be saved in childbearing" (1 Timothy 2:15). Female identity is rooted in creation not merely the curse.
The Teacher tells us: "he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (1 Corinthians 11:7-9)
Furthermore, in that state of innocence in the garden, the woman - not the man - was deceived. The Apostle again, now in fuller context:
1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The curse is not what led to women being responsible for childbearing. The curse is what made childbearing laborious and painful. And redemption doesn't free women from maternal responsibility, it urges them on to it!
Titus 2:1-6
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
What Rachel Held Evans has a problem with is God the Father's creation ordinance of human patriarchy. I'm not sure whether she has the ability to read clearly, so I'm loathe to say that she intentionally misrepresents the Bible. Nevertheless, her unwelcome and illogical teachings do not conform to Scripture.
-TurretinFan
Rachel Held Evans responded: “Classic. Root feminine identity in the curse rather than the redemptive work of Christ... .”
I'd call Evans' response unfair, if I thought she was smart enough to figure out what Strachan actually meant.
Strachan's point was simple: each was being cursed in his respective sphere. The curse identifies the spheres, it doesn't define them. Women were made for childbearing before the curse, but the curse made that a burden to them. And keeping in mind Christ's redemptive work, the Apostle writes: "she shall be saved in childbearing" (1 Timothy 2:15). Female identity is rooted in creation not merely the curse.
The Teacher tells us: "he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (1 Corinthians 11:7-9)
Furthermore, in that state of innocence in the garden, the woman - not the man - was deceived. The Apostle again, now in fuller context:
1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The curse is not what led to women being responsible for childbearing. The curse is what made childbearing laborious and painful. And redemption doesn't free women from maternal responsibility, it urges them on to it!
Titus 2:1-6
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
What Rachel Held Evans has a problem with is God the Father's creation ordinance of human patriarchy. I'm not sure whether she has the ability to read clearly, so I'm loathe to say that she intentionally misrepresents the Bible. Nevertheless, her unwelcome and illogical teachings do not conform to Scripture.
-TurretinFan
Ergun Caner - Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma - Annual Meeting 2009
Ergun Caner apparently addressed the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma at their annual meeting in 2009. The following are some excerpts from that address (all times approximate) (link to mp3):
0:55 "I was born overseas, to Turkish parents, as a Sunni Muslim. We came to America with my father who built mosques. We settled in Columbus, OH, and it was in Columbus, OH, in 1982, that I found Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior."
a) Did Caner's dad actually build mosques? I'd love to see some evidence of this.
b) Was Caner's mom Turkish or Swedish? Her mother was apparently exclusively Swedish speaking.
c) I hope Caner got saved in 1982 as he claimed, but compare below:
8:40 "As a matter of fact, when I got saved at the age of 17 going on 18, I knew nothing about what church was supposed to look like. I knew nothing about Baptists, I had never been in a church, never held a Bible, I didn't go through AWANA, I'd never been to a GA coronation, had never been in a VBS, I knew nothing."
Caner turned 17 in November of 1983, and 18 in November of 1984. So, was it in 1982 or some other year?
34:10 "I have an entire group of people - an entire cottage industry, dedicated to attacking me and my brother, and those of us who are former Muslims. 'He was never a Muslim! No Muslim has ever converted!' Well, here's one right here. 'Oh, this is all lies - this is all lies.' I maybe see five people saved a year out of Islam. My job is not about keeping score, my job is to be faithful to the task to which He's called me."
a) I hope that Caner has reached people for the gospel.
b) I don't think Caner's characterization of the "group of people" is very accurate.
37:10 "Do you know who reached me for the gospel? A Muslim who moved to this country to build mosques to you? Whose father was, for lack of a better term, a missionary to you?"
a) Caner came when he was a toddler.
b) A better term would be "engineer." Caner's father was not, from what we can tell, an occupational "missionary" or anything like that.
38:00 "Thank God for Jerry Tackett. You'll never know his name. He's a high school teacher in Reynoldsburg, Ohio, who hates it when I use his name."
I bet he does hate it. People probably ask him whether these stories are true, placing him in a difficult position.
41:00 "I live a weird life. My kids see me on TV. I got all these books. But I'm the same idiot I was when I was 18 years old and didn't know Ha-bak'-kuk from Ha-ba-kook' - and called Philemon, "Filet Mignon," and I couldn't find a church that would hire me as a pastor, because my English was poor, and look at me - fat, balding since I was 16 - not the good-looking preachers with hair gel - I wear a vest because it's a male girdle. So I couldn't find a church to call me."
Why would his English be poor? He grew up in America - he was involved in theater in high school. How "poor" are we to believe his English was?
- TurretinFan
0:55 "I was born overseas, to Turkish parents, as a Sunni Muslim. We came to America with my father who built mosques. We settled in Columbus, OH, and it was in Columbus, OH, in 1982, that I found Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior."
a) Did Caner's dad actually build mosques? I'd love to see some evidence of this.
b) Was Caner's mom Turkish or Swedish? Her mother was apparently exclusively Swedish speaking.
c) I hope Caner got saved in 1982 as he claimed, but compare below:
8:40 "As a matter of fact, when I got saved at the age of 17 going on 18, I knew nothing about what church was supposed to look like. I knew nothing about Baptists, I had never been in a church, never held a Bible, I didn't go through AWANA, I'd never been to a GA coronation, had never been in a VBS, I knew nothing."
Caner turned 17 in November of 1983, and 18 in November of 1984. So, was it in 1982 or some other year?
34:10 "I have an entire group of people - an entire cottage industry, dedicated to attacking me and my brother, and those of us who are former Muslims. 'He was never a Muslim! No Muslim has ever converted!' Well, here's one right here. 'Oh, this is all lies - this is all lies.' I maybe see five people saved a year out of Islam. My job is not about keeping score, my job is to be faithful to the task to which He's called me."
a) I hope that Caner has reached people for the gospel.
b) I don't think Caner's characterization of the "group of people" is very accurate.
37:10 "Do you know who reached me for the gospel? A Muslim who moved to this country to build mosques to you? Whose father was, for lack of a better term, a missionary to you?"
a) Caner came when he was a toddler.
b) A better term would be "engineer." Caner's father was not, from what we can tell, an occupational "missionary" or anything like that.
38:00 "Thank God for Jerry Tackett. You'll never know his name. He's a high school teacher in Reynoldsburg, Ohio, who hates it when I use his name."
I bet he does hate it. People probably ask him whether these stories are true, placing him in a difficult position.
41:00 "I live a weird life. My kids see me on TV. I got all these books. But I'm the same idiot I was when I was 18 years old and didn't know Ha-bak'-kuk from Ha-ba-kook' - and called Philemon, "Filet Mignon," and I couldn't find a church that would hire me as a pastor, because my English was poor, and look at me - fat, balding since I was 16 - not the good-looking preachers with hair gel - I wear a vest because it's a male girdle. So I couldn't find a church to call me."
Why would his English be poor? He grew up in America - he was involved in theater in high school. How "poor" are we to believe his English was?
- TurretinFan
Sunday, March 23, 2014
Ergun Caner - Northwest Baptist Convention - 2007 and 2009
Ergun Caner apparently spoke at the November 2007 NW Baptist Convention (Number 1, Number 2) and at the 2009 NW Baptist Student Convention (Number 1, Number 2) (link to the Northwest Baptist Convention homepage). All times in the following are approximate. If history is any guide, it may be beneficial to download the audio soon, before someone asks that it be removed.
4:00 "My full name is Ergun Mehmet Caner"
No, it isn't.
6:15 "I came to faith in Jesus Christ in 1982"
I hope he did, but that date doesn't match his testimony on other occasions.
10:05 "We have two beautiful half breed children - they ignore me in two languages. ... I speak to them in Turkish, Jill speaks to them in redneck ..."
As far as we can tell, Caner doesn't speak Turkish.
10:25 "With my name Ergun Mehmet Caner, Jill does not call me Ergun Mehmet Caner, she calls me Butch."
"Butch" was apparently his nickname going back at least to college, but "Ergun Mehmet Caner" was apparently his pseudonym following 9/11.
10:40 "I learned the language, coming to this country. And I learned that in the South, each region of the South has a different flavor of their dialect."
I guess that's technically true, given that he came as a toddler. I doubt he learned about dialects as a toddler, though.
11:20 "Her father is from Possum Kill, NC"
It would be great to see some evidence that this place really exists.
19:45 "I leave here after tonight's service, Dr. Cruz, I have to - apologetically I have to miss, but I'll steal your sermon later, cause I steal everything I've got - I was all into the Warren Wiersbe "Be Stolen" series back when they were coming out. I drive from here back down to Seattle, because I'm an idiot. I get on an 11:00 flight, I fly to Washington, DC, then to Roanoke, I pick up my son. The 9 year old Braxton and I then go to Kenya. We got on a 4 pm flight tomorrow. And I speak at Kabarak University and debate the Maathai tribe there - the Muslims there."
Ergun did go to Kabarak University (as documented here) to sign an academic deal with that university on behalf of Liberty University (see the image and further discussion below).
I'm not sure what tribe Caner had in mind. Presumably, Caner meant the Maasai people (link), but as far as I can tell, those people are not Muslims.
Is there any actual debate that took place? I cannot find any evidence to corroborate that story.
21:00 "For some reason, the little world that I travel in, debate, is big now. And so when we debate, it builds the crowds, and people come and we have a chance to present the gospel."
I can't see how he lives in the world of debate, seeing as he does not seem to have any significant amount of actual debating experience.
22:15 "I'm happy if in a year, Emir and I will see together maybe 5, 6, 7 Muslims come to Christ. When they come forward, they come forward to yell at us. Arcade Baptist Church in Sacramento, California, a thousand Muslims showed up. At the invitation, the pastor at the time, Daniel Henderson gave the invitation, and they came down both aisles, with Korans in their hand, yelling. Now how do you report that to the director of missions? There's not a block anywhere in that form. They come forward to yell - they throw things - they scream."
I would love to see some documentation of this supposed event. Is there any audio or video from that day?
Also, I hope that Muslims do come to Christ through the work of anyone at all, including Ergun and Emir. That said, when would this happen? I've found dozens of recordings of them speaking to Christians - where did they speak to Muslims?
40:15 "I had to become like them. I tried. I got FFA magazines - I did. If you don't know what that is, Future Farmers of America, I got 4H, I got 4H, I got all those magazines and I'd write down the words they said on post-it notes, and I'd tape them, put them up on my mirror and then as I shaved, I would practice the words they use. And I would try to use the real phrases so that they could understand me. One Sunday, I was trying to illustrate noetic sin, that man is not a sinner because he sins, he sins because he's sinner, that it's part of who you are, it's your DNA. And I said, 'It's as natural for a man to sin as it is for a bull to chase after a --' and I forgot -- I know, I know, cow, cow, I know, I know but I said, 'as it is for a bull to chase after a she-bull.' God's truth! I couldn't even give the invitation, I had to walk out. It's the truth!"
I have trouble believing that Caner couldn't remember the word "cow."
4:40 "You know, eight months after I got saved, I went to college. I didn't know much, I didn't know anything. I went to Bible college, because I wanted to catch up."
That would imply he was saved in his senior year of high school. That does not match with some of his other testimonies.
21:45 "My father had many wives, but from our mother, three boys."
His father, as far as we know, only had Caner's mother and one woman afterward as wives.
26:30 "My mom was divorced when my brothers became Christians. My father left her, blaming her for our conversion."
Ergun Caner's parents first filed for divorce when he was only 8 years old (see evidence here). His father may have blamed his mother for their conversion, but that could hardly be the reason for the divorce, unless they were converted far younger than any of their testimonies have said.
32:05 "I spend the vast majority of my life, on purpose, among heathens who hate me. I go to community colleges, and universities, and state schools - that's why I'm going to Narobi, to Kabarak, because they throw things, and they yell things, because they've never seen Christians half the time."
Actually, why he went to Kenya was for the reason you can see in the embedded image. It was to sign a deal between that university and Liberty University (as discussed on Liberty's site here).
And Liberty describes Kabarak University this way: "The country’s second president, Daniel T. Moi, founded the school in 2000 to provide Kenyan students with an academically excellent and biblically sound college education." That's hardly "heathens," at least as described by Liberty.
35:00 "You go to Youtube and type in Caner and taser and you'll see that I got tasered live on stage in front of 5,000 kids. Why? I can't remember, it hurt that bad."
You can see this event from one angle and it looks pretty convincing (one link). If you look at this event from another angle (second link), notice the taser operator picking up one of the leads from off the floor. Then in this third angle, you can see the second lead bouncing harmlessly off his shirt (third link). A lot of people recorded this, so you get yet a fourth angle here (link). Still, those second and third angles make it clear that he did not get both barbs.
39:20 "I was 18 years old and hated you. You know what reached for the gospel as a Muslim given to jihadeen? A Muslim who hated the Jew and the Christian? A kid whose father was muezzin in the mosque - not the imam but the muezzin and an ulima?"
"An ulima" is not grammatically correct. It should be "an alim," as "ulima" is a plural noun meaning "scholars." I question whether Caner's dad was a muezzin in any greater sense that he volunteered to do the call to prayer a few times.
If Caner was 18 when he still hated Christians, that would put his conversion at the earliest in November of 1984, which is after he graduated from high school. That does not fit well with his own claim about when he was converted.
40:00 "Jerry Tackett hunted me down for three years. I got kicked out of my home, I lost my family, everything. I lived in people's garages and basements. A year later that same boy in the same little tiny church reached both my brothers. All three boys, raised as jihadeen, born again."
Apparently, Caner's non-custodial dad disowned him. However, there is nothing to support the idea that his hippy universalist mother or Swedish Lutheran grandmother did. So, I really question this "kicked out of my house" idea and the "lived in people's garages and basements" idea.
Likewise, Caner seems to be suggesting that he and his brothers were raised as Jihadis. There is no corroboration of this story.
2:20 "I was bit nervous because, let me explain it this way, and you're probably going to think less of me, but that's the nature of the beast isn't it. When I lived in Istanbul, the only American television that I saw, became the window that I had into your world. The only thing I knew about America, I learned through television. Until I was getting ready to go into high school, that's all I knew was whatever I saw on TV. And so I thought that was America."
Caner came to America when he was about two years old, not when he was getting ready to go to high school. There is no evidence that Caner ever "lived in" Istanbul, though possibly he visited it.
3:10 "Everything I knew about you, I knew through television. And so I watched Andy Griffith."
He goes on to compare Mayberrry to Brooklyn. But I doubt a toddler would have noticed the difference.
3:30 "I watched the Dukes of Hazzard. I wanted to marry Daisy."
The Dukes of Hazzard didn't even begin to air until the late 70's, after Caner and his parents had been living in America for a decade or so.
3:50 "Every other week, for two hours, on Mehmet television, in Istanbul, Georgia Championship Wrestlin' - WWE and all that, was America to me."
As far as I can tell, this is a fictional television station. Also, apparently Georgian Championship Wrestlin' went onto national cable in 1979 (see the discussion here). It's hard to believe it was going international before it went national.
4:45 "So I moved to America and the first two things we did, we went to a Cubs-Mets game ... and then we went to Madison Square Garden to watch wrestling."
I doubt a two year old went to those things as his first thing upon entering the U.S., although I supp
7:10 "You need to understand, my children ignore me in two languages. I speak Turkish and they speak Turkish sometimes, but with a southern accent."
28:00 "So when I talk to those people, and I say, 'Let me tell you what my parents went through. See, my father left my mom, because he blamed her that we got saved.'"
As noted above, that story does not fit the documented timeline.
0:00 "You don't have to sign anything, you just download whatever debates. I have a two hour debate with the homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, every type of Muslim and Buddhist you can imagine, a Baha'i, I'm going to debate a Baha'i on Monday again. It will be my second one of this four week break. It's just something I want you to have, and I only give it to you because (a) I don't get to spend that much time with you and (b) it's coming here."
I've previously analyzed these so-called debates (see the discussion here). Calling these interviews "debates," is very hard to justify, as there is hardly any interaction that I could hear. They may be useful for students, in terms of hearing how various "world religions" describe themselves to Christians, but they can hardly be considered "debates."
0:30 "Every eight years there's a meeting of the caliphat, when the caliphat meets. The caliphat basically religious rulers in the Islamic world - all Sunni. What they do is they target certain states in the United States. They just finished with Hawaii they built three mosques in Hawaii. They just finished Washington, DC - the largest mosque that they built was in Washington, DC. Seattle's next - Seattle, WA, actually the state of Washington itself is next. And what they do is pump money in to that state."
The caliphate is the rule by the caliph, like a monarchy is a rule by a monarch. There has been no caliphate since Turkish military leader Mustafa Kemal Atatürk abolished it on March 3, 1924 (see information here). I have no idea what shadowy group, real or imagined, Caner has in mind. There is a large mosque in DC, but it opened in 1957 (see information here).
The closest thing I could find to this "every eight years" reference was the following, which describes a practice of Shia Muslims (not Sunni) in Iran:
- 2007 NW Baptist Convention - Number 1
4:00 "My full name is Ergun Mehmet Caner"
No, it isn't.
6:15 "I came to faith in Jesus Christ in 1982"
I hope he did, but that date doesn't match his testimony on other occasions.
10:05 "We have two beautiful half breed children - they ignore me in two languages. ... I speak to them in Turkish, Jill speaks to them in redneck ..."
As far as we can tell, Caner doesn't speak Turkish.
10:25 "With my name Ergun Mehmet Caner, Jill does not call me Ergun Mehmet Caner, she calls me Butch."
"Butch" was apparently his nickname going back at least to college, but "Ergun Mehmet Caner" was apparently his pseudonym following 9/11.
10:40 "I learned the language, coming to this country. And I learned that in the South, each region of the South has a different flavor of their dialect."
I guess that's technically true, given that he came as a toddler. I doubt he learned about dialects as a toddler, though.
11:20 "Her father is from Possum Kill, NC"
It would be great to see some evidence that this place really exists.
19:45 "I leave here after tonight's service, Dr. Cruz, I have to - apologetically I have to miss, but I'll steal your sermon later, cause I steal everything I've got - I was all into the Warren Wiersbe "Be Stolen" series back when they were coming out. I drive from here back down to Seattle, because I'm an idiot. I get on an 11:00 flight, I fly to Washington, DC, then to Roanoke, I pick up my son. The 9 year old Braxton and I then go to Kenya. We got on a 4 pm flight tomorrow. And I speak at Kabarak University and debate the Maathai tribe there - the Muslims there."
Ergun did go to Kabarak University (as documented here) to sign an academic deal with that university on behalf of Liberty University (see the image and further discussion below).
I'm not sure what tribe Caner had in mind. Presumably, Caner meant the Maasai people (link), but as far as I can tell, those people are not Muslims.
Is there any actual debate that took place? I cannot find any evidence to corroborate that story.
21:00 "For some reason, the little world that I travel in, debate, is big now. And so when we debate, it builds the crowds, and people come and we have a chance to present the gospel."
I can't see how he lives in the world of debate, seeing as he does not seem to have any significant amount of actual debating experience.
22:15 "I'm happy if in a year, Emir and I will see together maybe 5, 6, 7 Muslims come to Christ. When they come forward, they come forward to yell at us. Arcade Baptist Church in Sacramento, California, a thousand Muslims showed up. At the invitation, the pastor at the time, Daniel Henderson gave the invitation, and they came down both aisles, with Korans in their hand, yelling. Now how do you report that to the director of missions? There's not a block anywhere in that form. They come forward to yell - they throw things - they scream."
I would love to see some documentation of this supposed event. Is there any audio or video from that day?
Also, I hope that Muslims do come to Christ through the work of anyone at all, including Ergun and Emir. That said, when would this happen? I've found dozens of recordings of them speaking to Christians - where did they speak to Muslims?
40:15 "I had to become like them. I tried. I got FFA magazines - I did. If you don't know what that is, Future Farmers of America, I got 4H, I got 4H, I got all those magazines and I'd write down the words they said on post-it notes, and I'd tape them, put them up on my mirror and then as I shaved, I would practice the words they use. And I would try to use the real phrases so that they could understand me. One Sunday, I was trying to illustrate noetic sin, that man is not a sinner because he sins, he sins because he's sinner, that it's part of who you are, it's your DNA. And I said, 'It's as natural for a man to sin as it is for a bull to chase after a --' and I forgot -- I know, I know, cow, cow, I know, I know but I said, 'as it is for a bull to chase after a she-bull.' God's truth! I couldn't even give the invitation, I had to walk out. It's the truth!"
I have trouble believing that Caner couldn't remember the word "cow."
- 2007 NW Baptist Convention - Number 2
4:40 "You know, eight months after I got saved, I went to college. I didn't know much, I didn't know anything. I went to Bible college, because I wanted to catch up."
That would imply he was saved in his senior year of high school. That does not match with some of his other testimonies.
21:45 "My father had many wives, but from our mother, three boys."
His father, as far as we know, only had Caner's mother and one woman afterward as wives.
26:30 "My mom was divorced when my brothers became Christians. My father left her, blaming her for our conversion."
Ergun Caner's parents first filed for divorce when he was only 8 years old (see evidence here). His father may have blamed his mother for their conversion, but that could hardly be the reason for the divorce, unless they were converted far younger than any of their testimonies have said.
32:05 "I spend the vast majority of my life, on purpose, among heathens who hate me. I go to community colleges, and universities, and state schools - that's why I'm going to Narobi, to Kabarak, because they throw things, and they yell things, because they've never seen Christians half the time."Actually, why he went to Kenya was for the reason you can see in the embedded image. It was to sign a deal between that university and Liberty University (as discussed on Liberty's site here).
And Liberty describes Kabarak University this way: "The country’s second president, Daniel T. Moi, founded the school in 2000 to provide Kenyan students with an academically excellent and biblically sound college education." That's hardly "heathens," at least as described by Liberty.
35:00 "You go to Youtube and type in Caner and taser and you'll see that I got tasered live on stage in front of 5,000 kids. Why? I can't remember, it hurt that bad."
You can see this event from one angle and it looks pretty convincing (one link). If you look at this event from another angle (second link), notice the taser operator picking up one of the leads from off the floor. Then in this third angle, you can see the second lead bouncing harmlessly off his shirt (third link). A lot of people recorded this, so you get yet a fourth angle here (link). Still, those second and third angles make it clear that he did not get both barbs.
39:20 "I was 18 years old and hated you. You know what reached for the gospel as a Muslim given to jihadeen? A Muslim who hated the Jew and the Christian? A kid whose father was muezzin in the mosque - not the imam but the muezzin and an ulima?"
"An ulima" is not grammatically correct. It should be "an alim," as "ulima" is a plural noun meaning "scholars." I question whether Caner's dad was a muezzin in any greater sense that he volunteered to do the call to prayer a few times.
If Caner was 18 when he still hated Christians, that would put his conversion at the earliest in November of 1984, which is after he graduated from high school. That does not fit well with his own claim about when he was converted.
40:00 "Jerry Tackett hunted me down for three years. I got kicked out of my home, I lost my family, everything. I lived in people's garages and basements. A year later that same boy in the same little tiny church reached both my brothers. All three boys, raised as jihadeen, born again."
Apparently, Caner's non-custodial dad disowned him. However, there is nothing to support the idea that his hippy universalist mother or Swedish Lutheran grandmother did. So, I really question this "kicked out of my house" idea and the "lived in people's garages and basements" idea.
Likewise, Caner seems to be suggesting that he and his brothers were raised as Jihadis. There is no corroboration of this story.
- 2009 NW Baptist Student Convention - Saturday Morning
2:20 "I was bit nervous because, let me explain it this way, and you're probably going to think less of me, but that's the nature of the beast isn't it. When I lived in Istanbul, the only American television that I saw, became the window that I had into your world. The only thing I knew about America, I learned through television. Until I was getting ready to go into high school, that's all I knew was whatever I saw on TV. And so I thought that was America."
Caner came to America when he was about two years old, not when he was getting ready to go to high school. There is no evidence that Caner ever "lived in" Istanbul, though possibly he visited it.
3:10 "Everything I knew about you, I knew through television. And so I watched Andy Griffith."
He goes on to compare Mayberrry to Brooklyn. But I doubt a toddler would have noticed the difference.
3:30 "I watched the Dukes of Hazzard. I wanted to marry Daisy."
The Dukes of Hazzard didn't even begin to air until the late 70's, after Caner and his parents had been living in America for a decade or so.
3:50 "Every other week, for two hours, on Mehmet television, in Istanbul, Georgia Championship Wrestlin' - WWE and all that, was America to me."
As far as I can tell, this is a fictional television station. Also, apparently Georgian Championship Wrestlin' went onto national cable in 1979 (see the discussion here). It's hard to believe it was going international before it went national.
4:45 "So I moved to America and the first two things we did, we went to a Cubs-Mets game ... and then we went to Madison Square Garden to watch wrestling."
I doubt a two year old went to those things as his first thing upon entering the U.S., although I supp
7:10 "You need to understand, my children ignore me in two languages. I speak Turkish and they speak Turkish sometimes, but with a southern accent."
28:00 "So when I talk to those people, and I say, 'Let me tell you what my parents went through. See, my father left my mom, because he blamed her that we got saved.'"
As noted above, that story does not fit the documented timeline.
- 2009 NW Baptist Student Convention - Saturday Afternoon
0:00 "You don't have to sign anything, you just download whatever debates. I have a two hour debate with the homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, every type of Muslim and Buddhist you can imagine, a Baha'i, I'm going to debate a Baha'i on Monday again. It will be my second one of this four week break. It's just something I want you to have, and I only give it to you because (a) I don't get to spend that much time with you and (b) it's coming here."
I've previously analyzed these so-called debates (see the discussion here). Calling these interviews "debates," is very hard to justify, as there is hardly any interaction that I could hear. They may be useful for students, in terms of hearing how various "world religions" describe themselves to Christians, but they can hardly be considered "debates."
0:30 "Every eight years there's a meeting of the caliphat, when the caliphat meets. The caliphat basically religious rulers in the Islamic world - all Sunni. What they do is they target certain states in the United States. They just finished with Hawaii they built three mosques in Hawaii. They just finished Washington, DC - the largest mosque that they built was in Washington, DC. Seattle's next - Seattle, WA, actually the state of Washington itself is next. And what they do is pump money in to that state."
The caliphate is the rule by the caliph, like a monarchy is a rule by a monarch. There has been no caliphate since Turkish military leader Mustafa Kemal Atatürk abolished it on March 3, 1924 (see information here). I have no idea what shadowy group, real or imagined, Caner has in mind. There is a large mosque in DC, but it opened in 1957 (see information here).
The closest thing I could find to this "every eight years" reference was the following, which describes a practice of Shia Muslims (not Sunni) in Iran:
The faqih generally oversees the operation of the government to ensure that its policies and actions conform to Islamic principles. The faqih is a spiritual leader whose religious authority is above that of the president and any other officials. However, in keeping with the practice established by Khomeini, the faqih is expected to refrain from involvement in the day-to-day affairs of governance. An 83-member Assembly of Experts, popularly elected every eight years, is responsible for choosing the faqih (or a council of three to five faqihs, if there is no consensus on a single faqih) from among the most politically and religiously qualified Shia clergy.
(source) - but I see no way to get from that to anything that Caner is saying.
6:10 "When I came to America, it was my job to get married. I'm the oldest of three sons to my father,he had other wives, three sons to our mom. As the oldest, it was my job to be the first one to get married. I was the teenager. I had been sworn in marriage at age 8, in Istanbul, but because we moved, I didn't have to be married to that girl who had a better mustache than I did. Turkish women: my people, every Friday night, all the women Nair on their upper lip, all the men, shaving to separate the eyebrow. We all have hairy backs. Is that graphic enough for you? Well I didn't want to marry a Turk - I didn't want to marry a female version of this."
Caner had already been living in America for about 6 years by age 8. The idea that he came to America as a "teenager" i.e. in late 1979 or later (he was born in November of 1966), doesn't match the facts we know.
Finally, this description of Turkish women is untrue and - of course - offensive.
9:00 "I want to do something with you that I can't do in most places, especially if I'm being taped, because it's sort of giving away our cards. But if I go into a community college or I go into a state university, I have two rules for every debate - I will come anywhere - I don't care where it is, I will come, as long as there is somebody who is sponsoring me, and I don't care - I will debate anyone any world religion as long as I know who they are before I walk in. There are two rules by which I operate: Rule number 1, nobody gets paid. What's the first thing they always say about Christians? 'It's always about the money, isn't it.' ... Rule number 2, a little harder - no Christians are allowed to ask me questions. When I go into a debate, I go in knowing that it's going to be hostile. I go in knowing that the questions that going to come to me are from unbelievers. I believe Christianity is only effective if it is applied in a lost world. And thus, I don't even allow Christians to ask me questions in the debates. Cause a lot of you come because you are of that first group - you don't like fights - and you start feeling sorry for me. And you're not supposed to feel sorry for me. You know, you hear them calling me names and yelling and cussing and you're like 'it's horrible, let's send him an e-card!' or even worse, you will stand up and ask a question."
Where are any of these debates?
And how is that somehow giving away a debating secret or otherwise showing our cards?
And how is that somehow giving away a debating secret or otherwise showing our cards?
18:10 "Inevitably in the debate, somebody will raise their hand and ask what I refer to as the Oprah question. The Oprah question goes like this: 'Umm, are you saying that a good Buddhist is going to hell?' 'Yes.' Don't ever stutter, don't ever hesitate."
What debate, dialog or interview of Caner has ever included a question like that?
21:10 "I would do my prayer time. Do you know what we're doing, aside from putting our foreheads to the ground and sitting up. Do you know what we're doing? We are repeating the first chapter of the Koran over and over. That's all we do. Six verses."
It's actually seven verses, not six verses, in the usual enumeration.
- TurretinFan
Thursday, March 20, 2014
Did Athanasius Say Tradition Plus Scripture?
One oft-quoted passage of Athanaisus comes from his second festal letter:
Instead, the "opinions" Athanasius has in mind is simply the Scriptures themselves taken in their correct meaning. Likewise the "them" that the heretics receive as "traditions of men" are the Scriptures, not oral traditions.
Athanasius is saying that the heretics do not know the Scriptures nor the power of the Scriptures. Therefore, instead of following the text and meaning of the Scriptures they prefer to follow the traditions of men.
This can be seen from an examination of the context preceding as well as the context following. In the context preceding:
Again, in the context following:
Notice as well that Athanasius says "to them only" it is necessary to give heed. Notice as well that he clarifies "these not being disciples because they heard from others, but being eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word". And Athanasius has hit the nail on the head. The purpose of Luke's gospel was to memorialize the preceding oral tradition and to provide certainty to the readers.
In short, Athanasius was affirming that Scripture is not merely a human tradition, but rather the testimony of eye-witnesses and has apostolic authority, having been handed down from "the teacher."
- TurretinFan
Festal Letter 2, section 6:Usually the way this is cited is to quote merely the following portion: "But after him and with him are all inventors of unlawful heresies, who indeed refer to the Scriptures, but do not hold such opinions as the saints have handed down, and receiving them as the traditions of men, err, because they do not rightly know them nor their power." It is stated or implied by the people providing this quotation that when Athanasius says "opinions as the saints have handed down" he means "oral tradition" or something of that kind. That's not correct.
For not only in outward form did those wicked men dissemble, putting on as the Lord says sheep’s clothing, and appearing like unto whited sepulchres; but they took those divine words in their mouth, while they inwardly cherished evil intentions. And the first to put on this appearance was the serpent, the inventor of wickedness from the beginning—the devil,—who, in disguise, conversed with Eve, and forthwith deceived her. But after him and with him are all inventors of unlawful heresies, who indeed refer to the Scriptures, but do not hold such opinions as the saints have handed down, and receiving them as the traditions of men, err, because they do not rightly know them nor their power. Therefore Paul justly praises the Corinthians, because their opinions were in accordance with his traditions. And the Lord most righteously reproved the Jews, saying, ‘Wherefore do ye also transgress the commandments of God on account of your traditions.’ For they changed the commandments they received from God after their own understanding, preferring to observe the traditions of men. And about these, a little after, the blessed Paul again gave directions to the Galatians who were in danger thereof, writing to them, ‘If any man preach to you aught else than that ye have received, let him be accursed.’
Instead, the "opinions" Athanasius has in mind is simply the Scriptures themselves taken in their correct meaning. Likewise the "them" that the heretics receive as "traditions of men" are the Scriptures, not oral traditions.
Athanasius is saying that the heretics do not know the Scriptures nor the power of the Scriptures. Therefore, instead of following the text and meaning of the Scriptures they prefer to follow the traditions of men.
This can be seen from an examination of the context preceding as well as the context following. In the context preceding:
Festal Letter 2, section 5:Notice that "the teacher delivered" refers to Paul as "the teacher." It is what Paul handed down, namely the Scriptures, that Athanasius has in mind. The heretics are those who "were men who used his words, but chose to hear them as suited their lusts, and dared to pervert them." In other words, they did not consider the words as they were written, but as they wished they were written. To put it in modern terms, they eisegeted rather than exegeting.
Oh! my brethren, how shall we admire the loving-kindness of the Saviour? With what power, and with what a trumpet should a man cry out, exalting these His benefits! That not only should we bear His image, but should receive from Him an example and pattern of heavenly conversation; that as He hath begun, we should go on, that suffering, we should not threaten, being reviled, we should not revile again, but should bless them that curse, and in everything commit ourselves to God who judgeth righteously. For those who are thus disposed, and fashion themselves according to the Gospel, will be partakers of Christ, and imitators of apostolic conversation, on account of which they shall be deemed worthy of that praise from him, with which he praised the Corinthians, when he said, ‘I praise you that in everything ye are mindful of me.’ Afterwards, because there were men who used his words, but chose to hear them as suited their lusts, and dared to pervert them, as the followers of Hymenæus and Alexander, and before them the Sadducees, who as he said, ‘having made shipwreck of faith,’ scoffed at the mystery of the resurrection, he immediately proceeded to say, ‘And as I have delivered to you traditions, hold them fast.’ That means, indeed, that we should think not otherwise than as the teacher has delivered.
Again, in the context following:
Festal Letter 2, section 7:Notice that Athanasius here clarifies what opinions of the saints he has in mind - the testimony found in Scripture, such as Luke's Gospel.
For there is no fellowship whatever between the words of the saints and the fancies of human invention; for the saints are the ministers of the truth, preaching the kingdom of heaven, but those who are borne in the opposite direction have nothing better than to eat, and think their end is that they shall cease to be, and they say, ‘Let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die.’ Therefore blessed Luke reproves the inventions of men, and hands down the narrations of the saints, saying in the beginning of the Gospel, ‘Since many have presumed to write narrations of those events of which we are assured, as those who from the beginning were witnesses and ministers of the Word have delivered to us; it hath seemed good to me also, who have adhered to them all from the first, to write correctly in order to thee, O excellent Theophilus, that thou mayest know the truth concerning the things in which thou hast been instructed.’ For as each of the saints has received, that they impart without alteration, for the confirmation of the doctrine of the mysteries. Of these the (divine) word would have us disciples, and these should of right be our teachers, and to them only is it necessary to give heed, for of them only is ‘the word faithful and worthy of all acceptation;’ these not being disciples because they heard from others, but being eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word, that which they had heard from Him have they handed down.
Notice as well that Athanasius says "to them only" it is necessary to give heed. Notice as well that he clarifies "these not being disciples because they heard from others, but being eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word". And Athanasius has hit the nail on the head. The purpose of Luke's gospel was to memorialize the preceding oral tradition and to provide certainty to the readers.
In short, Athanasius was affirming that Scripture is not merely a human tradition, but rather the testimony of eye-witnesses and has apostolic authority, having been handed down from "the teacher."
- TurretinFan
Olive Baptist - September 13, 2009
On September 13, 2009, Drs. Emir and Ergun Caner apparently delivered four messages (two each - there was a third speaker who delivered two messages, Paige Patterson) at Olive Baptist:
Emir begins by pointing out that he and Ergun were baptized in the same church (as one another) and called to preach in the same church (as one another). He then goes on to note that the difference is that Ergun was not born in the U.S., joking that Ergun is an "undocumented worker."
Emir tells the story of an annoying kid who kept after him until he went to church.
0:15 "I'm not real good at fakin' it."
I am not sure whether to agree or disagree with this.
1:50 "The only reason that you can understand me, is because God has to constantly break me down. When our family came to this country - Turkish, Immigrant, Yankee, Sunni Muslim, our father raised us with the constant admonition, find a woman, marry a woman who is submissive, who will obey you - and I married a southern belle - that don't work."
The only reason you can understand him is because he came to America from Sweden as a toddler and was raised in Ohio.
2:55 "Her father is from Possum Kill, NC"
We have yet to see any evidence that there is such a place.
3:20 "With a name like Ergun Mehmet Caner, Butch"
His real name is Ergun Michael Caner. His "Butch" nickname apparently goes back to his college days, before he met his wife.
17:10 "When I debate - and all of our debates are free, got to iTunes or whatever and you type in - and you can download all of our debates, they're all free - but when we debate we have two rules number 1 - nobody gets paid, because what do they say about Christians all the time? it's always about money - so we do our debates - they sign the contract, I sign the contract and it says nobody gets paid - and the second part of it is, no Christians are allowed to ask me questions, because if a Christian asks me a question, it sometimes smells like a setup."
We've previously discussed (here) the items Dr. Caner had up on iTunes. They weren't debates. Furthermore, as far as I can tell - these were for classes Caner taught at Liberty. The description, therefore, doesn't seem to match what we find.
25:15 "I realize I need to baptize her in Swedish, that's our native tongue. That's what she only spoke. She never spoke English in 30 years, living in this country."
I appreciate that Emir was forthright about the fact that his grandma was Swedish and that his native tongue was Swedish, not "Arabic" or "Turkish" or anything like that. Still, wouldn't it be good for Emir to come out and say, "Yes, when Ergun pretended that he speaks Arabic or claimed it was his language before English, he was lying."
-TurretinFan
- "Contend Earnestly for the Faith" 9:30 AM Service Message Jude 3-4 Dr.Emir Caner (link to mp3)
Emir begins by pointing out that he and Ergun were baptized in the same church (as one another) and called to preach in the same church (as one another). He then goes on to note that the difference is that Ergun was not born in the U.S., joking that Ergun is an "undocumented worker."
Emir tells the story of an annoying kid who kept after him until he went to church.
- "Preachers in the Hands of an Angry God" 11 AM Service Message Jeremiah 28 Dr.Ergun Caner (link to mp3)
0:15 "I'm not real good at fakin' it."
I am not sure whether to agree or disagree with this.
1:50 "The only reason that you can understand me, is because God has to constantly break me down. When our family came to this country - Turkish, Immigrant, Yankee, Sunni Muslim, our father raised us with the constant admonition, find a woman, marry a woman who is submissive, who will obey you - and I married a southern belle - that don't work."
The only reason you can understand him is because he came to America from Sweden as a toddler and was raised in Ohio.
2:55 "Her father is from Possum Kill, NC"
We have yet to see any evidence that there is such a place.
3:20 "With a name like Ergun Mehmet Caner, Butch"
His real name is Ergun Michael Caner. His "Butch" nickname apparently goes back to his college days, before he met his wife.
- "Global Apologetics" 5 PM Service Message [none] Dr.Ergun Caner (link to mp3)
17:10 "When I debate - and all of our debates are free, got to iTunes or whatever and you type in - and you can download all of our debates, they're all free - but when we debate we have two rules number 1 - nobody gets paid, because what do they say about Christians all the time? it's always about money - so we do our debates - they sign the contract, I sign the contract and it says nobody gets paid - and the second part of it is, no Christians are allowed to ask me questions, because if a Christian asks me a question, it sometimes smells like a setup."
We've previously discussed (here) the items Dr. Caner had up on iTunes. They weren't debates. Furthermore, as far as I can tell - these were for classes Caner taught at Liberty. The description, therefore, doesn't seem to match what we find.
20:30 "I was reached because one kid in high school, loved me for four years the way Christ loved him."
This suggests Caner was saved as a high school senior, which does not match other accounts of his alleged conversion date, or that of his brother.
20:45 "After I became a Christian, I lost my family - I lost everything I loved and owned - I lost everything in one fell swoop."
This doesn't seem very accurate - he seems to have lost only his relationship with his non-custodial father.
21:30 "Jerry came after me for four years. When I finally saw that wall, my name was the last one on his list. And every year he put up a new list, and all of his friends had become Christians except for me."
Again, notice the "four years." Also, compare with Emir's comments regarding the "annoying kid" which apparently refers to the same Jerry. Why wasn't Emir on the list if he was always annoying Emir and if Ergun was saved before Emir? This doesn't seem to make much sense.
22:50 "So, I go into places where they hate me, we sign a contract that says nobody gets paid, no Christians can ask me questions ..."
Where are any of these contracts?
47:14 "Here's a little encouragement for you middle-schoolers and high-schoolers. I was a straight C, graduated with a 2.0, I graduated number 207 out of 404 people. I was in the random middle of my high school class."
I question this for a variety of reasons, such as that he seems to have made a similar claim about his undergrad (see here) and because it would be surprising to me if about half the graduating class averaged below a C.
- "An Audience of One" 6 PM Service Message 1 Kings Dr.Emir Caner (link to mp3)
25:15 "I realize I need to baptize her in Swedish, that's our native tongue. That's what she only spoke. She never spoke English in 30 years, living in this country."
I appreciate that Emir was forthright about the fact that his grandma was Swedish and that his native tongue was Swedish, not "Arabic" or "Turkish" or anything like that. Still, wouldn't it be good for Emir to come out and say, "Yes, when Ergun pretended that he speaks Arabic or claimed it was his language before English, he was lying."
-TurretinFan
Tuesday, March 18, 2014
One of the Challenges to Extreme Pro-Life Rhetoric
The Bible is not explicit about when exactly human life begins. Don't misunderstand me - the Bible is clear that human life begins in the womb, prior to birth. However, the Bible does not explicitly say "life begins at the instant of fertilization." Moreover, such a view encounters some problems. One of those problems is the case of identical twins and - in rare cases - identical triplets (see this cute example).
These identical siblings come from the same fertilized egg. Which of the triplets then began life at fertilization? And did the others begin life at all, since they only had a separate existence after fertilization? Or all of the triplets one person? The first question seems inscrutable, and the other questions seem to suggest that life does not have to begin at fertilization.
Of course, God knows the future and knows whether the egg will ultimately split and form two or more babies. So, God could give a single fertilized egg several souls at once. The problem with this ad hoc response is that if God can give multiple souls, then God also could give zero souls to a fertilized egg that he knows will not implant or will otherwise die. Neither of those ad hoc explanations is from the Bible.
I recognize that for "conservative" Roman Catholics, the view today is that life begins at the moment of fertilization (this differs from earlier views that life begins at a quickening time during the pregnancy). I don't think that Roman Catholics, however, have a compelling response to the problem of identical twins/triplets.
None of the above necessarily implies a particular way of handling the abortion question. It does suggest that we might want to be cautious about being dogmatic about the very earliest stages of pregnancy, namely the time during which it is possible for a single egg to become multiple children.
Likewise, by the same token, it makes sense for us to cautiously over-protect unborn children - perhaps even attempting to legally protect fertilized human eggs prior to any division. Since we are not sure when exactly God gives a human soul, it makes sense conservatively to protect from the fertilized egg onward.
One may object that the Bible speaks of "conception" and people possessing various qualities from the time they were "conceived" in the womb. This itself does argue for a relatively early time of human life within the pregnancy. Nevertheless, remember that we should not read back our understandings of human biology anachronistically onto the text. Thus, we should not assume that "conception" in these texts refers to the moment of fertilization.
In any event, I post this not to throw cold water on the pro-life movement, nor to discourage people from protecting the unborn. Rather, I post this to encourage pro-lifers to be more cautious and circumspect in their rhetoric - focusing on what we know (that unborn children are human beings with souls) rather than on what we do not know (namely the precise moment of ensoulment).
These identical siblings come from the same fertilized egg. Which of the triplets then began life at fertilization? And did the others begin life at all, since they only had a separate existence after fertilization? Or all of the triplets one person? The first question seems inscrutable, and the other questions seem to suggest that life does not have to begin at fertilization.
Of course, God knows the future and knows whether the egg will ultimately split and form two or more babies. So, God could give a single fertilized egg several souls at once. The problem with this ad hoc response is that if God can give multiple souls, then God also could give zero souls to a fertilized egg that he knows will not implant or will otherwise die. Neither of those ad hoc explanations is from the Bible.
I recognize that for "conservative" Roman Catholics, the view today is that life begins at the moment of fertilization (this differs from earlier views that life begins at a quickening time during the pregnancy). I don't think that Roman Catholics, however, have a compelling response to the problem of identical twins/triplets.
None of the above necessarily implies a particular way of handling the abortion question. It does suggest that we might want to be cautious about being dogmatic about the very earliest stages of pregnancy, namely the time during which it is possible for a single egg to become multiple children.
Likewise, by the same token, it makes sense for us to cautiously over-protect unborn children - perhaps even attempting to legally protect fertilized human eggs prior to any division. Since we are not sure when exactly God gives a human soul, it makes sense conservatively to protect from the fertilized egg onward.
One may object that the Bible speaks of "conception" and people possessing various qualities from the time they were "conceived" in the womb. This itself does argue for a relatively early time of human life within the pregnancy. Nevertheless, remember that we should not read back our understandings of human biology anachronistically onto the text. Thus, we should not assume that "conception" in these texts refers to the moment of fertilization.
In any event, I post this not to throw cold water on the pro-life movement, nor to discourage people from protecting the unborn. Rather, I post this to encourage pro-lifers to be more cautious and circumspect in their rhetoric - focusing on what we know (that unborn children are human beings with souls) rather than on what we do not know (namely the precise moment of ensoulment).
Friday, March 14, 2014
Formal Debates - Index
Formal Oral Debates
-TurretinFan
Hell
1. “Some people will not be saved from their sins according to the following passages and their contexts: 2 Thess. 1:9, Matt. 25:41/46, Matt. 18:8, Romans 9:22 and Jude 1:6.” (T-Fan affirmative vs. Jason Pratt) (part 1)(part 2)(part 3)
2. “Unsaved humans will suffer everlasting conscious torment.” (T-Fan negative vs. Ronnie)(part 1)(part 2)
Calvinism
1. "The Bible Teaches Libertarian Free Will" (T-Fan negative vs. Dan Chapa)(google docs with mp3)
2. "The Hardening of Pharaoh's Heart" (T-Fan arguing Calvinistic side vs. Louis Ruggiero aka LouRugg)(wma version)(mp3 version)
Roman Catholicism
- With Dan Marcum - Purgatory Debate (mp3)
- With William Albrecht aka GNRHead:
Marian Debates
- Assumption of Mary Debate
- Immaculate Conception Debate
- Mother of God Debate
- Perpetual Virginity Debate
- Veneration of Mary Debate (transcript)(main page)(Follow-Up Part 1)(Part 2)(Part 3)(Part 4)(Part 5)(Part 6)(Part 7)(Part 8)
- Is Marian Devotion Intrinsic to Christian Worship? (page with embedded version)
- Latria-Dulia Debate (transcript)
- Veneration of Images Debate (main page - with follow-up)(further follow-up)
- Augustine Transubstantiation Debate
- Purgatory Debate
- Canon Debate (main page)(second main page)
- Papal Infallibility Debate (main page)
- Sola Scriptura and Unity Debate (main page)
- Sola Fide Debate (main page)
- Is the Apocrypha God's Word? (page with embedded version)
Formal Written Debates
- Sola Scriptura vs. Roman Catholicism (vs. Matthew Bellisario)(index page)
- Sola Scriptura vs. Eastern Orthodoxy (vs. "Orthodox")(tagged pages on debate blog)
- Holy Water Debate (vs. PhatCatholic aka Nicholas Hardesty)(tagged pages on debate blog)
- Genuine Christian Apostasy Debate (T-Fan negative vs. J.C. Thibodaux)(tagged pages on debate blog)
- Atonement Debate (vs. "Catholic Nick")(tagged pages on debate blog)
- Regulative Principle debate (vs. Centuri0n aka Frank Turk)(tagged pages at Cent's debate blog)
-TurretinFan
Tuesday, March 11, 2014
The New Living Translation (NLT) and Calvinism
Introduction
The Scriptures teach Calvinism. There should not be any particular surprise in this - it's the reason Calvinists believe Calvinism. That said, it has been alleged that the New Living Translation (NLT) even more clearly teaches Calvinism (link to allegation). In fact, the allegation at "Traditional"(FN1) Baptist Chronicles is that there is some kind of Calvinistic bias in the dynamic equivalent translation. My friend who provided this researched analysis of the NLT focused on what he viewed as verses that are frequently cited by Calvinists.With that in mind, I thought I would examine some of the typical verses used by Arminians to support their contra-Calvinist positions.
Analysis of Some Typical Contra-Calvinist Prooftexts
The "big three" verses one hears are the following: Matthew 23:37, 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9. A few additional verses that are typically cited are the following: 1 John 2:2, John 3:16, Romans 10:13, 1 Timothy 2:6.The following is the KJV for those verses, followed by the NLT, with an explanation of the difference and the significance of that difference, if any:
Matthew 23:37 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:37 (NLT) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
Both of the identified added words seem to be for purposes of clarifying the meaning of the verse, and they seem to be correct. I think the "city" substitution may help slightly, but the traditional non-Calvinist view of this verse seems to be based on confusing "you" and "your children," which is only slightly less likely in the NLT.
1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4 (NLT) who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
This change may make the non-Calvinist misunderstanding of the text slightly easier, but it is almost the same.
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (NLT) The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
Here, the change would seem to make the non-Calvinist misunderstanding of the text much easier. In other words, it is not so clear that the "any" and "all" refer to "us," but rather it appears that "anyone" and "everyone" has no specific reference.
1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NLT) He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
There is some loss of meaning in this change, since propitiation is a specific aspect of the atonement. Nevertheless, the change does not seem to significantly affect the way that the verse would be mishandled by non-Calvinists.
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (NLT) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
The "only begotten" vs. "one and only" reflects a modern translation preference that I won't discuss here. The change from "whosoever" to "everyone" actually should reduce the non-Calvinist confusion over this verse.
Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (NLT) For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again, the change from "whosoever" to "everyone" actually should reduce the non-Calvinist confusion over this verse.
UPDATE: March 18, 2014: Added the following verses to the analysis of non-Calvinist prooftexts:
Hebrews 2:9 (KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 2:9 (NLT) What we do see is Jesus, who was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone.
The different way of attaching the suffering of death phrase is interesting, but does not affect the Calvinism/contra-Calvinism argument. The added "for us" does seem consistent with the context of Hebrews 2:9, but the "everyone" seems about as liable to non-Calvinist misunderstanding as the "every man." In both cases, the Calvinist will need to explain the verse in context.
2 Peter 2:1 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1 (NLT) But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.
The change from "Lord" to "Master" makes it slightly less likely that a reader will arrive at the usual non-Calvinist association of this Lord/Master with Jesus. Likewise, the change from "damnable" to "destructive" makes it slightly less likely that the reader will arrive at the usual non-Calvinist allegation that this refers to the people going to hell.
What about the Verses in the Allegation?
My friend does seem to have a point that in a number of cases the NLT seems to prefer a dynamic equivalent reading that removes a possible non-Calvinist way of looking at the verse or makes the Calvinistic understanding more natural. For example, "uncircumcised in ears" (in many translations) is less clear than "deaf to the truth" (NLT at Acts 7:51). Still, it seems strained to me to suppose that this particular replacement of an idiom with a phrase designed to convey a similar meaning has any roots in preference for Calvinism.Similarly, my friend criticizes the NLT at Romans 8:29 for "God knew his people in advance" rather than "for whom he did foreknow," which seems to be a fairly empty criticism.
Likewise, some of the examples seem to have almost nothing to do with Calvinism. For example, at Acts 1:21-23, the NLT has "we must choose a replacement for Judas," which my friend seems to think suggests that both the apostles and God chose Matthias, rather than that just God chose Matthias. It's hard to see the connection between that and Calvinism.
In other cases, the seeming advantage to a Calvinist reading is almost insignificant: at Romans 9:20 the thing is said to be "created" from clay rather than "molded" or "formed" from clay.
Still, in a few cases the NLT provides some explanation that is unhelpful to typical non-Calvinist views: at Romans 9:11, the text states "This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes," which does not fit well with the "God chooses a plan" view or the "God chooses nations" view.
Also, a number of the cases identified are places that relate to perseverance of the saints - an aspect of the five points that is shared by many non-Calvinists. So, for example, it is alleged that the explanatory phrase "nothing can ever separate us from God's love" in the NLT's Romans 8:38 is not a fair translation. However, of course, a "once saved always saved" view would be equally fond of this particular explanatory phrase.
Verses on Other Topics?
After reading through the dozens of verses my friend identified, I wonder - is this method of translating something reserved for issues relating to Calvinism? Or is this just simply a byproduct of the dynamic equivalent methodology. It seems to be the latter. For example:Mark 1:4 (KJV) John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:4 (NLT) This messenger was John the Baptist. He was in the wilderness and preached that people should be baptized to show that they had repented of their sins and turned to God to be forgiven.
That's clearly a lot of extra explanation and it avoids the misunderstanding that people were getting baptized in order to have their sins remitted by the baptism. Yet, at the same time, that's more explanation than is in the original Greek.
Similarly:
Philippians 2:12 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12 (NLT) Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.
I won't even highlight all the differences, but I think you can see that the clarification avoids a misunderstanding of work's salvation.
I haven't done an extensive study to confirm, but my suspicion is that the translators have made these kinds of clarifications in numerous places - not just places that Calvinist and non-Calvinists may go when trying to discuss theology with one another. So, I don't think that accusations of Calvinist bias (intentional or unintentional) are correct.
Conclusion
I am not a fan of translations that attempt to use dynamic equivalence to a large degree to make the text easy to read. There are certain aspects of translation that may require equivalence (for example, where different word order has different meaning in different grammars, or where periphrastic constructions are being used, or for similar conjugation issues). In general, though, a word for word equivalency should be preferred, if the translation is intended to be studied.If you study or argue from a very dynamic translation, you can run into trouble. Imagine how frustrating it would be if your child was trying to explain the doctrines of grace to his friend and his friend pointed out that "This message shows that God chooses people" was not in the original text. That would be a legitimate comment even though the phrase does accurately characterize the meaning of the original.
If you choose a dynamic equivalent translation for your children to read, the NLT may be a useful choice (it doesn't seem to have a strong non-Calvinist bias). Indeed, it appears that there is a bona fide attempt to express the meaning of the text and to provide clarification in some harder to understand places. Nevertheless, you should carefully remind them of the difference between this type of translation and a more literal translation, like the KJV, NKJV, MKJV, NASB, ESV, etc.
Personally, I don't care for this style of translation. All translation has a degree of commentary in it, but the more dynamic the translation, the more commentary it has. Sometimes that commentary may be good and helpful (and I think my friend has identified a number of cases where it is such, although he disagrees).
I won't be switching from the KJV to the NLT, and I don't think the translators of the NLT intended the NLT to compete with the KJV. Rather the NLT is probably an excellent alternative a paraphrase like the Message or the like.
-TurretinFan
FN1: I think Founders Ministries might respectfully disagree that a non-Calvinistic approach is "traditional" for Baptists.
Monday, March 10, 2014
Thoughts on Al Mohler's Post on Yoga?
I've informally asked around for comments on Albert Mohler's post on Yoga (link to post). My own impression of his post was that it seems to be mostly derived from the teachings of one book, as opposed to being based on his own more detailed study of the subject. Is anyone aware of any scholarly responses to Stefanie Syman's book, The Subtle Body: The Story of Yoga in America? Or - I suppose - even some well-written or well-thought-out responses that say more than just "yoga is exercise, exercise is fine, stop worrying"?
-TurretinFan
-TurretinFan
Fraternal Order of the Charity Police
The charity police have particular skill at tracking down negative or critical comments wherever they are found on the Internet. These folks seem to consider it their calling to inform those posting negative comments or criticism that they are being uncharitable. So, what can we do when we encounter these folks?
1. Consider it Seriously
An accusation that we are being uncharitable is a serious accusation, and we should not just automatically ignore it. Is there some merit to it? Was our criticism or negative comment rightly motivated or was it an expression of hatred of the person or group targeted? If it was wrongly motivated, we need to repent of the hatred, confess our fault, and seek to remedy it.
2. Take it with a Grain of Salt
Keep in mind, the charity police are not always unbiased critics. When you criticize a celebrity pastor, the folks who immediately rush to accuse you of a lack of charity may be doing so more because of a fanatical devotion to the celebrity than because of a careful evaluation of your motives and the merits of your criticism. The same is true when you criticize a religious system (Mormonism for example) or an aspect of such a system (such as the papacy). So, while we should take criticism seriously, if we conclude that we had right motivations and legitimate criticisms, then we shouldn't let these accusations keep us up at night.
3. Recognize its Inevitability
I doubt that any apologist or evangelist on the Internet who has been posting for long has not been accused by the charity police. Indeed, for some of them, it has become a routine things. One of my apologist friends sometimes mentions how a particular web forum is filled with people who appear convinced that he is unloving. These accusations against him come from this firm opposition to their religious views. Those who, like him, oppose those religious views are likely to be treated the same way.
4. Avoid Joining It
Remember that we should be slow to judge, and that we should judge with the measure with which we would wish to be judged. Determining a person's motives is often a very difficult task. So, while a negative comment or criticism may seem to us to be improperly motivated and unfair, we should avoid immediately leaping to the conclusion that it comes from a lack of charity. After all, such an accusation itself may be uncharitable.
5. Avoid Excessive Replies in Kind
When being accused of a lack of charity, it is tempting to immediately respond by pointing out the charity police's own lack of charity. Try to limit this. First, it's sometimes hard to distinguish between people who sincerely believe you are being too harsh and people who are just upset that you smashed their idol. Second, it looks like an appeal to "two wrongs make a right." If it's wrong to be unloving, it's not a defense that your critic is also being unloving.
6. Avoid Excessive Defensiveness
You may want to explain your previous statements when you think they could legitimately be misunderstood as hatred. Nevertheless, don't feel as though you have to explain yourself to absolutely every officer of the charity police. You don't just have a right to remain silent, you are free to disregard their comments.
Concluding Thoughts
I've had a few run-ins with the charity police over the years. In a few cases, I've modified my posts to avoid undue offense. In a few cases I've had to seriously re-evaluate whether I was being too harsh. In many cases I've just recognized that the charity police was just confused or blind to the actual situation. Dealing with the charity police is a difficult balancing act: it would be foolish to completely block them out, yet it would also be foolish to let them dictate the terms of our communication. If and when you run into the charity police, hopefully you will be ready to deal with their citations, summonses, and so on.
-TurretinFan
1. Consider it Seriously
An accusation that we are being uncharitable is a serious accusation, and we should not just automatically ignore it. Is there some merit to it? Was our criticism or negative comment rightly motivated or was it an expression of hatred of the person or group targeted? If it was wrongly motivated, we need to repent of the hatred, confess our fault, and seek to remedy it.
2. Take it with a Grain of Salt
Keep in mind, the charity police are not always unbiased critics. When you criticize a celebrity pastor, the folks who immediately rush to accuse you of a lack of charity may be doing so more because of a fanatical devotion to the celebrity than because of a careful evaluation of your motives and the merits of your criticism. The same is true when you criticize a religious system (Mormonism for example) or an aspect of such a system (such as the papacy). So, while we should take criticism seriously, if we conclude that we had right motivations and legitimate criticisms, then we shouldn't let these accusations keep us up at night.
3. Recognize its Inevitability
I doubt that any apologist or evangelist on the Internet who has been posting for long has not been accused by the charity police. Indeed, for some of them, it has become a routine things. One of my apologist friends sometimes mentions how a particular web forum is filled with people who appear convinced that he is unloving. These accusations against him come from this firm opposition to their religious views. Those who, like him, oppose those religious views are likely to be treated the same way.
4. Avoid Joining It
Remember that we should be slow to judge, and that we should judge with the measure with which we would wish to be judged. Determining a person's motives is often a very difficult task. So, while a negative comment or criticism may seem to us to be improperly motivated and unfair, we should avoid immediately leaping to the conclusion that it comes from a lack of charity. After all, such an accusation itself may be uncharitable.
5. Avoid Excessive Replies in Kind
When being accused of a lack of charity, it is tempting to immediately respond by pointing out the charity police's own lack of charity. Try to limit this. First, it's sometimes hard to distinguish between people who sincerely believe you are being too harsh and people who are just upset that you smashed their idol. Second, it looks like an appeal to "two wrongs make a right." If it's wrong to be unloving, it's not a defense that your critic is also being unloving.
6. Avoid Excessive Defensiveness
You may want to explain your previous statements when you think they could legitimately be misunderstood as hatred. Nevertheless, don't feel as though you have to explain yourself to absolutely every officer of the charity police. You don't just have a right to remain silent, you are free to disregard their comments.
Concluding Thoughts
I've had a few run-ins with the charity police over the years. In a few cases, I've modified my posts to avoid undue offense. In a few cases I've had to seriously re-evaluate whether I was being too harsh. In many cases I've just recognized that the charity police was just confused or blind to the actual situation. Dealing with the charity police is a difficult balancing act: it would be foolish to completely block them out, yet it would also be foolish to let them dictate the terms of our communication. If and when you run into the charity police, hopefully you will be ready to deal with their citations, summonses, and so on.
-TurretinFan
Friday, March 07, 2014
Mariolatry and Externals
Francis of Rome on March 5, 2014, as reported by the Vatican Information Service (VIS) statesd:
And again, on the same day, Francis is reported as saying that people should:
-TurretinFan
We get used to living in a society that claims to be able to do without God, in which parents do not teach their children how to pray or how to make the sign of the Cross. This inurement to forms of behaviour that are not Christian, that are the easy way, anaesthetise the heart!” He asked the faithful present, “Do your children know how to make the sign of the Cross? Do they know how to pray the Our Father or the Hail Mary?”.The Marian devotion is sad but unsurprising. Still, the blatant emphasis on something so purely external as making the sign of the cross should really be shocking to people who think that the focus of Roman Catholicism is the same as that of Christianity.
And again, on the same day, Francis is reported as saying that people should:
... invoke with particular trust the protection and help of the Virgin Mary, so that she, the first believer in Christ, might accompany us in days of intense and penitential prayer, to allow us to celebrate, purified and renewed in spirit, the great Paschal mystery of her SonMary was not the first believer in Jesus Christ. Recall that Jesus himself said:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.Likewise, in recounting the martyrs, Jesus said:
Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.Similarly, Hebrews recounts the examples of faith in the Old Testament up to Sara and says:
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.But the errors don't stop there. There is no reason to supposed that Mary can provide protection or help. There is no reason to suppose that Mary can accompany us. Furthermore, Mary's permission or help is not needed for us to celebrate the paschal mystery.
-TurretinFan
Saturday, March 01, 2014
The Ergun Caner Affair - One Collation of the Evidence
The Ergun Caner affair saddens me deeply. Dr. Caner is an excellent orator. He has great delivery - great timing - and he knows how to get a laugh. I had hoped that the investigations made of Dr. Caner's alleged autobiographical embellishments would lead Dr. Caner to confess that he had sinned, to repent of that sin, and to try to make amends for what he had done.
I was not a fan of Caner's soteriological views before this affair came to light. Still, when a Muslim began accusing Caner of various things, I immediately came out in support of Caner and pointed out the triviality of some of the criticisms (mispronunciations of words, for example) and the absurdity of some of the claims (that Caner was never a Muslim). I even argued that a person who was named "Ergun Mehmet Caner" must certainly have been from a Muslim family. Little did I know that I had been misled regarding his name - Ergun Michael Caner was not who I had thought.
I believe it was the video of Caner saying that he was born in Istanbul (next to another one saying he was born in Stockholm) that opened my eyes. So, I began to address the issues in the hopes of restoring a man who I thought was a brother in Christ. I hoped that bringing these issues to light might persuade Caner to come clean - to correct the mistakes he made. He even appeared to be taking a step in that direction, when he issued an apology that referred to various misstatements. Unfortunately, it is hard to accept that the embellishments were just accidental misstatements.
While the investigation went on and quickly concluded at Liberty, I watched and hoped for Caner to repent. People encouraged me by suggesting that he might have possibly signed some kind of non-discussion deal with Liberty, requiring him to remain silent for a time. I was also encouraged to note that a lot of the embellishments that had come to light were not continued after mid-2010 (as far as we could tell).
I also tried to convince myself that Caner had altruistic reasons for these embellishments. They do make his stories more interesting and - until one discovers the truth - quite compelling. I convinced myself that Caner might have begun the embellishments as an attempt to get people fired up about the problem of Islam. I figured Caner may have made the "one anonymous high school boy" story more exciting to get high school kids willing and motivated to share the gospel.
Some have even suggested that Caner made himself appear as he did to try to win the Muslims. Unfortunately, I don't see any evidence that Dr. Caner reached out to the Muslims to any large extent. Almost all of these embellishments were presented to primarily professing Christian audiences.
The fall-out has been big. The original Muslim critic who calls his site "fake ex muslims" still seems to want to argue that Ergun Caner was never a Muslim at all. But surely Caner probably did say the shahada at some point. His father was a serious enough Muslim that he legally changed his middle name from Martin to Mehmet. Moreover, his father left his three Christian sons Korans in his will.
So then - why this post? I still hold out hope that God will stir Caner's conscience and he will repent and be restored. Maybe if he confronts himself with the facts that his comments were repeated - not one-time slips of the tongue - he will realize he owes his "critics" an apology.
So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at Olive Baptist (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link), while noting that "Mehmet" was something he took on later.
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to Janet Parshall (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
\So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
Based on the evidence we've located, Ergun Michael Caner began to use the alias "Ergun Mehmet Caner" shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks. Caner at other times used an even more extravagant alleged full name of something sounding like "Ergun Michael Mehmet Giovanni Caner."
We've discussed this in more detail here:
i) Ergun Caner's Middle Name is what?
ii) Middle Name Issue Revisited (includes response to Geisler's claim)
So he claimed with Tom McCall.
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link) (example of the "fully Turkish").
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed to Janet Parshall (link).
e. "Kurdush Tribe" "Kurdish" "Kurdish - Eastern Turk"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed in "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the Lee Strobel Testimony video (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he apparently claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at the International Missions Conference (link).
d. Born in Turkey or Born in Istanbul
So he claimed to Harold Hendrick (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
f. "My Madrassa in Istanbul" and "My Madrassa in Cairo" "Before we came to America"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed at the International Missions Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
So he apparently claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed in his lecture, "Don't mess with the book" (link).
So he claimed in San Diego (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
s. Came to America at "14 years old"
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed to Zola Levitt (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed in a book edited by Norman Geisler (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he admitted in a Turkish interview (link)
So he claimed in a book edited by Norman Geisler (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
ae. Churches were Reluctant to Hire Him because His English was Poor
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
Ergun Caner graduated high school in the Spring of 1984. So, if he was converted in 1982, that would imply either the second half of his sophomore year, or the first half of his junior year. If he was converted in 1981, that would imply either the first half of his sophomore year, or the second half of his freshman year. Ergun Caner was born November 3, 1966, so he would have been 16 on November 4, 1982 and 15 on November 4, 1981.
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at the Buffalo Baptist Church 2013 Easter Sermon (link).
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at Southcrest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at Olive Baptist (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
So he claimed at the Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 (link).
So he claimed on the Pastor's Perspective (link).
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed at the Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 (link).
So he claimed at Southcrest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
So he claimed in "Why I am not a Muslim" (link).
So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed in San Diego (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at the International Missions Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
So he claimed at Southcrest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Campus Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
(I have neglected to post the places where Ergun Caner said he went to a revival, because he thought it was "re-bible," and he had never touched a Bible.)
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at Buffalo Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed in PHIL104 (link)
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to Janet Parshall (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed in PHIL104 (link)
So he claimed in the LouRugg foreword (link)
So he claimed at his Prestonwood sermon (link).
So he seemed to claim at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he seemed to claim at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
2) No
So he claimed to Zola Levitt (link).
b. Claims to Speak Arabic
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he did at Superconference 2005 (link)
So he did at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he did at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he did on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he did at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he did multiple times to the Marine Corps (link).
Here's a nice comparison of two clips allegedly of the same phrase (link) regarding what is supposedly written on a wall of a mosque in Kabul.
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed in "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the Lee Strobel Testimony video (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed in San Diego (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link) (even claimed he climbed a minaret).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link) (claimed he climbed a minaret).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
In "Unveiling Islam," the brothers claim that "Father did the call to prayer on occasion." (p. 17) One assumes that this is the true story.
ii) "An Ulema" (sic)
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
So he claimed in the LouRugg foreword (link)
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
iii) A Hadithic Scholar
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed in a book edited by Norman Geisler (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link). (including claim to have worked on a mosque in Brooklyn and in Toledo)
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
d. "For lack of a better term, a missionary"?
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed to Richard Land (link), including claiming to have built them in Toledo and Columbus, Ohio (see this special item regarding the Toledo mosque).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
i) His father had "more than one wife at a time"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
ii) His father had three wives
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
i) His father had "many wives"
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed in his lecture, "Don't mess with the book" (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
ii) His father had "multiple wives"
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
iii) His father had "other wives"
So he claimed in "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
iv) His Mom discovered his father was married to more than one woman
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
v) His Father immigrated with wives (sometimes with reference to Abraham lie)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
vi) His Father's "Second Wife" convinced the brothers to visit their dying father
So he claimed in Unveiling Islam (link)
vii) His Father Divorced his Mother because the Father blamed her for the Sons' (or Ergun's) Conversion
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
a. Took off her Hijab or Chador in Baptistry
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
b. Wore the Chador
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
c. Wore the Chador even after the brothers' conversion
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
d. Mother was a Wahabi
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
e. Mother was a Sufi
So he seemingly claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
a) Fat as a Child?
See the discussion here (link)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
b) Father-in-law from "Possum Kill, NC"?
There is a separate post on this subject (link). In short, there does not appear to be such a place. I'm told that when Caner was at Liberty he had some kind of row boat with "Possum Kill" lettered on the side, but I can't confirm that this.
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at Olive Baptist (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed at the Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
c) First Job
i) Not a Convenience Store
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
He claimed he didn't work at a convenience store, at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
ii) A Convenience Store
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
He claimed he worked at a 7-11 to the Marine Corps (link).
d) Roller Skating
i) Overdid it
So he claimed at Fall Chapel 2010 (link)
ii) You can't roller skate in sand
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link)
(See here)
e) Church in which he was Saved
i) Doesn't exist any more
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
ii) Still exists
It does apparently exist.
f) Was a Straight C Student in College
So he claimed at GGBTS (link), although he apparently was a Presidential scholar in college. (At Olive Baptist (link) and at West Cabarrus Church (link) he suggested he was a straight C student in high school.)
g) Claimed He was Tasered in a way that was very painful
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
h) Was "Finishing Up" his Doctorate in 1999
So he claimed at the National Conference on Christian Apologetics 2013 (link).
i) Received his Doctorate in 2001
So he claimed at ErgunCaner.com (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
So he claimed with Tom McCall
So he claimed on iTBN.
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link). (Only here he claims it was at the University of Chicago)
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed with Tom McCall.
So he claimed at Superconference 2005.
So he claimed on Issues Etc.
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed on iTBN.
Se he claimed on Issues Etc.
So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
Actually, that's not the Arabic or Turkish word for circumcision. Moreover, oddly enough, Caner also claimed that was the name of the prayer beads in Islam, on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed in "Why I am not a Muslim" (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed in "Why I am not a Muslim" (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
It actually comes a couple of months later.
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
It actually has about 29 days. It's a lunar month. It never has 40 days.
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
Main Sources
1. Conversation with Tom McCall
2. "What Worship Looks Like" FBC Lyons, November 17, 2013
3. 2013 Summer Bible Conference, July 21, 2013
4. iTBN Contributions
5. Pastor's Perspective, January 22, 2010 (also mentions Prestonwood Sermon) (see this comparison to other testimonies)
6. Buffalo Creek Baptist Church - Easter 2013
7. "Rip the Roof Off" at Bell Shoals - 2010
8. SBTS Panel Discussion - November 14, 2003
9. Testimony at Free CD Tracts
10. From Islam to Christianity - November 2, 2009
11. Interview with Craig von Buseck (original material)
12. Watchmen on the Wall - 2013
13. Liberty University - Superconference 2005
14. "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity"
15. Fall Chapel 2010
16. The Secret of Islam - May 6, 2011
17. Why I am not a Muslim - May 7, 2011
18. The Secret of Islam - October 29, 2011
19. Ergun Caner in Others' Books - Various
20. Liberty Baptist Church - October 10, 2010
21. Values Voter Summit 2010
22. PHIL104 "Contemporary World View"
23. Foreword to Louis Ruggiero's Book
24. Issues Etc. (multiple appearances)
25. Ashburn Baptist Church (2003 - 2005, various messages)
26. John Ankerberg Show (numerous pre-2013 clips)
27. Campus Church 2008 (various messages)
28. Faith and Family Interviews (Richard Land, interview - various dates)
29. California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006
30. Thomas Road Baptist Church Sermons (various)
31. Zola Levitt (ZL 338 - Signs of the End 2001)
32. Excerpts from Unveiling Islam (link)
33. Testimony on LeeStrobel.com
34. Southwest Baptist Church - January 23, 2010
35. Turkish Article interviewing Caner - June 13, 2003
36. "The Greatest Day in Church" at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge - January 25, 2009
37. Pastor Lloyd Interviews Ergun Caner - January 2009
38. Chapter 14 of "Why I Am a Christian" (Norman Geisler, editor) (with some other tidbits from other books)
39. Lecture titled "Don't Mess with the Book" - January 5, 2009
40. My Summary of Caner's Yearbook Information and related thoughts (And my earlier attempt at a reconstructed biography)
41. Value Voters Summit 2009
42. North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 ("Church House or Jail House" was title of message)
43. Messages in San Diego, May 1-2, 2010
44. Rick and Bubba Show (several parts)
45. GGBTS 2010 Missions Conference (February 12-14, 2010)
46. The Master's Pulpit (April 2, 2003)
47. Olive Baptist (September 13, 2009)
48. Northwest Baptist Conference (2007 and 2009)
49. Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma - Annual Meeting 2009
50. International Missions Conference 2008 - Forest Baptist Church, November 2, 2008
51. Harold Hendrick Interview - September 3, 2009
52. First Baptist Church, Pearl City, Hawaii - June 1, 2007
53. First Baptist Church, Mount Vernon, Georgia - March 2, 2014
54. West Cabarrus Church - July 18, 2010
55. U.S. Marine Corps, New River, NC - September 15, 2005
56. Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 - February 21, 2010
57. Janet Parshall's "Talking it Over" - January 10, 2009
58. ErgunCaner.com and National Conference on Christian Apologetics - October 2013
59. Ohio Free Will Baptists - Men's Retreat Early 2007
60. Southcrest Baptist Church - April 13, 2013
61. SBTS Address to Students - November 13, 2003
Some additional sources
1. Middle Name Usage Sources
2. Translation Claims Sources
3. Various News Sources Reports of Caners' testimony from 2001 and shortly thereafter (and compare this)
4. Caner's Class Discussions with people of other religions
5. A Page of Ergun Caner Materials
1. What about Caner's Alleged Apology? (links to discussion: part 1- part 2)
2. What about the testimony of Jamal Jivanjee? (see discussion here and here)
3. Geisler debate issues
Mispronunciation of words, like Sawm (but see discussion here, for example) and curious claims like praying in the locker room (see the discussion here, for example) I also did not include the impression of Caner that Fallwell received and expressed (link to discussion). I did not get into the issue of how many books exactly Caner has published (some discussion on that here) or his qualifications (see discussion here) or credentials (link) or the issue of calling his doctorate from the University of South Africa a PhD (see example here). I didn't discuss Tom Chantry's multipart series comparing Ergun Caner to Stephen Ambrose (link). I didn't discuss Caner's tasering incident, which he mentioned at GGBTS (link). Nor did I get into the issues of his alleged class rank in high school (link). I didn't mention his issues with the Latin language (see the example at this link).
I have not discussed the question of the age of his grandma at her baptism: I believe I've heard 92 (at FBC Mount Vernon and at the National Conference on Christian Apologetics), 93 (at Shades Mountain Independent Church and implicitly at Southcrest Baptist Church), 95 (at FBC Pearl City), and 99.
I have not discussed his profane language as evidence in the videos of his presentations to the Marine Corps (link).
I have not listed the times where Dr. Caner has said that he did not see his dad for "17 years" (one example was at FBC Mount Vernon (link)).
I have not included material regarding his brother Emir, except where they were both speaking or writing together such as at Olive Baptist (link), where Emir acknowledged that "Swedish, that's our native tongue."
I had trouble describing this now-removed video and consequently omitted it from the listings above (link to materials).
I hope that God will use this post for his glory and that it will encourage Dr. Caner to confess, repent, and be restored.
-TurretinFan
Updates:
3/20/14 - Added Olive Baptist messages
3/23/14 - Added NW Baptist Conference messages
3/24/14 - Added Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma message
3/25/14 - Added International Missions Conference message
3/28/14 - Added Harold Hendrick Interview
3/30/14 - Added FBC Pearl City message
3/31/14 - Added FBC Mount Vernon message
4/1/14 - Added West Cabarrus Church message
4/23/14 - Added Marine Corps Videos
4/24/14 - Added Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 message
4/25/14 - Added Janet Parshall Interview
4/26/14 - Added National Conference on Christian Apologetics 2013/ErgunCaner.com
4/30/14 - Added Ohio Free Will Baptists - Men's Retreat Early 2007 (further updated 5/10/14)
5/3/14 - Added Southcrest Baptist Church message
5/15/14 - Added SBTS address to students
I was not a fan of Caner's soteriological views before this affair came to light. Still, when a Muslim began accusing Caner of various things, I immediately came out in support of Caner and pointed out the triviality of some of the criticisms (mispronunciations of words, for example) and the absurdity of some of the claims (that Caner was never a Muslim). I even argued that a person who was named "Ergun Mehmet Caner" must certainly have been from a Muslim family. Little did I know that I had been misled regarding his name - Ergun Michael Caner was not who I had thought.
I believe it was the video of Caner saying that he was born in Istanbul (next to another one saying he was born in Stockholm) that opened my eyes. So, I began to address the issues in the hopes of restoring a man who I thought was a brother in Christ. I hoped that bringing these issues to light might persuade Caner to come clean - to correct the mistakes he made. He even appeared to be taking a step in that direction, when he issued an apology that referred to various misstatements. Unfortunately, it is hard to accept that the embellishments were just accidental misstatements.
While the investigation went on and quickly concluded at Liberty, I watched and hoped for Caner to repent. People encouraged me by suggesting that he might have possibly signed some kind of non-discussion deal with Liberty, requiring him to remain silent for a time. I was also encouraged to note that a lot of the embellishments that had come to light were not continued after mid-2010 (as far as we could tell).
I also tried to convince myself that Caner had altruistic reasons for these embellishments. They do make his stories more interesting and - until one discovers the truth - quite compelling. I convinced myself that Caner might have begun the embellishments as an attempt to get people fired up about the problem of Islam. I figured Caner may have made the "one anonymous high school boy" story more exciting to get high school kids willing and motivated to share the gospel.
Some have even suggested that Caner made himself appear as he did to try to win the Muslims. Unfortunately, I don't see any evidence that Dr. Caner reached out to the Muslims to any large extent. Almost all of these embellishments were presented to primarily professing Christian audiences.
The fall-out has been big. The original Muslim critic who calls his site "fake ex muslims" still seems to want to argue that Ergun Caner was never a Muslim at all. But surely Caner probably did say the shahada at some point. His father was a serious enough Muslim that he legally changed his middle name from Martin to Mehmet. Moreover, his father left his three Christian sons Korans in his will.
So then - why this post? I still hold out hope that God will stir Caner's conscience and he will repent and be restored. Maybe if he confronts himself with the facts that his comments were repeated - not one-time slips of the tongue - he will realize he owes his "critics" an apology.
A. Autobiographical Statements
1. "My full name is Ergun Mehmet Caner" or "Ergun Michael Mehmet Giovanni Caner."
Caner's real name is Ergun Michael Caner. On many occasions, however, he has referred to himself as though "Mehmet" were his middle name. He even did that on books that were published after September 11.a) Short Version ("Ergun Mehmet Caner")
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at Olive Baptist (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link), while noting that "Mehmet" was something he took on later.
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to Janet Parshall (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
b) Long Version ("Ergun Michael Mehmet Giovanni Caner" or something close to that)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
\So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
Based on the evidence we've located, Ergun Michael Caner began to use the alias "Ergun Mehmet Caner" shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks. Caner at other times used an even more extravagant alleged full name of something sounding like "Ergun Michael Mehmet Giovanni Caner."
We've discussed this in more detail here:
i) Ergun Caner's Middle Name is what?
ii) Middle Name Issue Revisited (includes response to Geisler's claim)
2. Ancestry / Religion
Ergun has made a number of claims about his ancestry over the years. From what we have been able to determine, Caner's mother is Swedish and his father was Turkish. He has also made various claims about his religious upbringing.a. 100% Turkish / Fully Turkish / Turkish Parents
Caner has sometimes claimed to have been 100% Turkish. In fact, I'm told that even this year he has made such a claim. I believe some of his supporters have claimed that although Caner's mother was Swedish, her parents had adopted her and she was genetically Turkish.So he claimed with Tom McCall.
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link) (example of the "fully Turkish").
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed to Janet Parshall (link).
b. Persian
Caner has sometimes claimed to have Persian ancestry (for example, on iTBN).c. Anatolian (as distinct from Persian or Arab)
Caner has sometimes claimed to have Anatolian ancestry (for example, on Pastor's Perspective and in San Diego.)d. Eastern Turk, toward the Kurdish Regions
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)e. "Kurdush Tribe" "Kurdish" "Kurdish - Eastern Turk"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
f. One Half of my Family is Wahabi
So he claimed with Craig von Buseck (link).g. One Half of my Family is Sunni
So he claimed with Craig von Buseck (link).h. "Extreme Devout"
So he claimed as quoted by John Ankerburg (link)i. Said prayers in Bathroom / Locker Room
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
j. Got a Muslim Tattoo Before Conversion
So he apparently claimed at GGBTS (link).3. Places of Residence / Upbringing / Arrival in USA
As far as I can tell, Caner was born in Sweden, moved to the USA when he was two years old, and grew up in or around Columbus, Ohio.a. "Lived under ... Socialism, Facism, and Democracy" or "Socialism, Facism, Islamic Sharia law, and Democracy"
So he claimed on iTBN (link).So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
b. (Always) Lived in "Majority" Muslims Locations
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed in "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the Lee Strobel Testimony video (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
c. Lived in Istanbul / "From Istanbul"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he apparently claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at the International Missions Conference (link).
d. Born in Turkey or Born in Istanbul
So he claimed to Harold Hendrick (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
e. Raised in a Madrasa in Istanbul
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).f. "My Madrassa in Istanbul" and "My Madrassa in Cairo" "Before we came to America"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
g. Came as a Missionary to You / Came to Build Mosques
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed at the International Missions Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
h. Learned English in High School
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).i. Learned English by Studying American Dialects
So he apparently claimed at GGBTS (link).So he apparently claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
j. Was counseled on Marriage before Coming to US
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).k. Learned About America from Andy Griffith before coming to US
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed in his lecture, "Don't mess with the book" (link).
So he claimed in San Diego (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
l. Learned About America from Dukes of Hazzard (wanted to marry Daisy Duke)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
m. Watched Wrestling on Tapes Imported to Turkey
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
n. Viewed America, "all our lives," as "Oz" where money could be made quickly
So he claimed in a book edited by Norman Geisler (link).o. Raised in Turkey, Cairo, Egypt, and Beirut (or Beirut and Cairo)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
p. Studied at a Madrasa in Beirut before coming to America
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).q. Came to America at age 12
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).r. Came to America "when I was 13 years old"
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).s. Came to America at "14 years old"
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
t. Came to America in our teenage years or as a teenage boy or "in my teens" or "in my young teens"
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
u. Came to America "entering high school"
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
v. Came to America in 1978 / during the Iran Crisis / "It was 1979" / somehow connected with Ayatollah Khomeini
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed to Zola Levitt (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed in a book edited by Norman Geisler (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
w. "We finally settled in 1978"
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).x. Came to America in 1969
So he admitted in "The Secret of Islam" in 2011 (link)So he admitted in a Turkish interview (link)
y. Had no Contact with Relatives in Turkey since 1969
So he admitted in a Turkish interview (link)z. Came to America with both brothers
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed in a book edited by Norman Geisler (link).
aa. Watched Christian TV (while a Muslim) to Critique it
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).ab. Was Confused by High Heels and Toe Rings because of Turkish Culture
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).ac. Lived in the Inner City / Cement Jungle / Attended an "Urban" Church
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
ad. Held Back a Year to Learn English
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).ae. Churches were Reluctant to Hire Him because His English was Poor
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
4. Age at alleged Conversion
In "Unveiling Islam," the brothers claim that Emir was saved on "November 4, 1982," which was "the following year" from when Ergun was saved. That would mean that Ergun was saved in 1981, when he 14 (if it was before November 3, 1981) or barely 15. (see a special post on this topic) At the Master's College the conversion of the brothers is said to be "in the years that followed" (link).Ergun Caner graduated high school in the Spring of 1984. So, if he was converted in 1982, that would imply either the second half of his sophomore year, or the first half of his junior year. If he was converted in 1981, that would imply either the first half of his sophomore year, or the second half of his freshman year. Ergun Caner was born November 3, 1966, so he would have been 16 on November 4, 1982 and 15 on November 4, 1981.
a. November 4, 1982 or just 1982
So he claimed on the Lee Strobel Testimony video (link).So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
b. Did Not See Father for 17 Years (puts post-conversion disowning at 1982)
So he claimed at the National Conference on Christian Apologetics 2013 (link).c. "Late in Life" or "Later in Life"
So he claimed at the 2013 Summer Bible Conference (link).So he claimed at the Buffalo Baptist Church 2013 Easter Sermon (link).
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
d. "Three years to enter the church" (seemingly implying the fourth is when he entered) or "for three years" said no or Jerry Tackett kept coming "for three years"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at Southcrest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
e. "Three and a half years"/ "Over Three Years" / "Almost Four Years" / "Four Years" into High School
So he claimed at the 2013 Summer Bible Conference (link).So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at Olive Baptist (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
So he claimed at the Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 (link).
f. Brothers saved one year later and/or while Caner was in College and/or Caner was in College one year (or eight months) after conversion
So he claimed at the 2013 Summer Bible Conference (link).So he claimed on the Pastor's Perspective (link).
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed at the Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 (link).
So he claimed at Southcrest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
g. "Senior Year" / "going into my Senior Year" / "Senior"
So he claimed in his testimony at Free CD Tracts (link).So he claimed in "Why I am not a Muslim" (link).
So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed in San Diego (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at the International Missions Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
So he claimed at Southcrest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
h. "almost my senior year"
So he claimed on the Lee Strobel Testimony video (link).i. Evangelism of Caner began his sophomore year
So he claimed on the Lee Strobel Testimony video (link).j. "almost in college" or "going into college"
So he claimed in PHIL104 (link)So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Campus Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
k. Read through Bible as "Young Boy".
So he claimed on iTBN (link).(I have neglected to post the places where Ergun Caner said he went to a revival, because he thought it was "re-bible," and he had never touched a Bible.)
l. "17 Years of my life" as a Muslim or "17 years old"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
m. "17 and a half"
So he claimed at Campus Church (link).n. "almost 18" / "17 going on 18"
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
o. "18 Years of my life" he thought Christians hated him or he was immersed in Islam or he was 18 for his first Easter or he hated us until he was 18 or he first entered a church at age 18
So he claimed on iTBN (link).So he claimed at Buffalo Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed in PHIL104 (link)
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to Janet Parshall (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
p. "18 years old, foot-long Muslim mullet hanging off the back of my head"
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
q. "Did not pick up a Bible until he was 18 years old"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).r. At age 30 had "been a Christian then for 12 years"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).s. "Muslim for 20 years"
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).t. Muslim until "almost 20"
So he claimed with Craig von Buseck (link).So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
u. "half my life"
So he claimed with Craig von Buseck (link).So he claimed in PHIL104 (link)
So he claimed in the LouRugg foreword (link)
v."late teens"
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).w. "Summer of the Year between my Junior and my Senior Year"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).x. Both his brothers got saved at his first sermon
So he claimed in "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity (link)So he claimed at his Prestonwood sermon (link).
So he seemed to claim at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he seemed to claim at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
y. Heard the Gospel before he came to America?
1) YesSo he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
2) No
So he claimed to Zola Levitt (link).
5. Studied Jihad
Caner has seemed to suggest over the years that he was trained in jihad. His claims:- He was taught jihad al-asghar in Columbus, or so he claimed at the 2013 Summer Bible Conference (link).
- He was a "jihadeen" / "mujihadeen" / "training in madrassa was three generations deep as a jihadeen" / "sworn to jihad at the age of 9" or so he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
- He was taught to convert by the sword, or so he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
- So he seemingly claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link) with reference to a "Madras".
- So he seemingly claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link) by saying that he was "assuming that I was going to die for Allah."
- He was in the Islamic Youth Jihad in Ohio and Turkey, or so he claimed to Richard Land (link).
- He was in the Islamic Youth Jihad with his brothers, or so he claimed to Zola Levitt (link).
- He was a "jahideen", or so he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link) or a "jihadeen" as he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link) and at the International Missions Conference (link).
- He came to "get" us, or so he claimed at the Master's College (link).
- He would be "behind you, and up to no good" if he had not been saved, or so he claimed at the International Missions Conference (link).
6. Arabic Knowledge
Dr. Caner has alleged or suggested knowledge of the Arabic language on a number of occasions. these claims don't seem justified (see this discussion from Dr. White and his Arabic tutor). While Dr. Caner clearly has memorized some Arabic phrases and words, I don't think he himself would claim to be able to translate Arabic today.a. Claimed to Translate Arabic Language Document
Claimed to translate a fatwa (with his brother), as analyzed here (link).b. Claims to Speak Arabic
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
c. Speaking Apparent Gibberish, Supposedly Arabic
So he did at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).So he did at Superconference 2005 (link)
So he did at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he did at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he did on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he did at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he did multiple times to the Marine Corps (link).
Here's a nice comparison of two clips allegedly of the same phrase (link) regarding what is supposedly written on a wall of a mosque in Kabul.
d. Arabic was his Language before English
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)e. Told the Story of Ishmael and Isaac at the Dome of the Rock in Arabic
So he claimed at Superconference 2005 (link)So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
f. Knows the Arabic (about the word for "beat" in the Koran)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).g. Spoke English with an Accent and/or Broken English
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
h. Claimed to be Writing a Commentary on the Koran
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link)So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
i. Challenges Muslims to debate in Arabic
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).j. English was not his First or Second Language
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).k. Able to read and translate the Koran
So he claimed to Zola Levitt (link).l. Claimed to Speak Arabic
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).m. Claimed to just Speak Memorized Arabic Phonetically like Roman Catholics and Latin
So he claimed in San Diego (link).n. Referred to Arabic (with Turkish) as "Our Language"
So he did at the Master's College (link).o. Suggests he "Knows the Language" as distinct from "Some Cracker"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).p. Claimed he Goes to Listen to the Arabic Sermon in a Mosque
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).7. Turkish Knowledge
Less often (from what I've heard), Caner has claimed (or suggested) he was able to speak Turkish. In fact, I suspect Caner knows a lot more Swedish than Turkish.a. Speaks to Son(s) in Turkish and/or they will speak Turkish to him with a southern accent and/or they ignore him in "two languages"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
b. States some apparent gibberish is Turkish
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).c. Claims to speak Turkish
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).d. Referred to Turkish (with Arabic) as "Our Language"
So he did at the Master's College (link).e. Suggested he Understood American Television based on Captions while in Turkey
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).8. "We Dressed Differently"?
Caner has claimed that prior to his conversion he dressed in a way that was distinctively different from typical Americans, such as wearing Keffiyah, wearing robes, and so on. On the other hand, most of the pictures we find of him and his father show him wearing typical American clothing (Link to Counter-evidence including response to Geisler's attempted defense). (Sadly, Caner seems to be making it sound like this was his normal outfit back in the day.)So he claimed in "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the Lee Strobel Testimony video (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed in San Diego (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
9. Disowned by His Family
Caner was apparently disowned by his non-custodial father upon converting to Christianity (isn't that tragedy enough?). However, Caner has sometimes claimed that he was disowned by his "family" (for example, with Tom McCall and on Watchmen on the Wall and to Richard Land) or that he "lost my family" (for example, on Pastor's Perspective, at Values Voter Summit 2010 and at Liberty Baptist Church and with Pastor Lloyd and on the Rick and Bubba Show and at FBC Pearl City) or that he "had no family" (for example, Ashburn Baptist Church or Southwest Baptist Church). He even claimed he was "kicked out of my house" and had to live in people's garages and basements, at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link). At the Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 (link), it was "I lose my family and I lose everything."10. Regarding his Father
Caner seems to enjoy making his father seem very important. I don't personally recall him saying his father was an imam, but Caner compared himself to a preacher's kid (PK) (sorry, I haven't included that one in this list).a. Son of a Muslim Leader?
The only corroborating evidence of leadership we can find is in an association (see the discussion here regarding his prominence in the community) and Jimal Jivanjee's memory that has him as a leader in the community.b. "An Ulema/Ulima" (sic) / A Muezzin / Haddithic Scholar
i) A MuezzinSo he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link) (even claimed he climbed a minaret).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link) (claimed he climbed a minaret).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
In "Unveiling Islam," the brothers claim that "Father did the call to prayer on occasion." (p. 17) One assumes that this is the true story.
ii) "An Ulema" (sic)
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
So he claimed in the LouRugg foreword (link)
So he claimed on Issues Etc. (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
iii) A Hadithic Scholar
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
c. Architect (or Civil Engineer)?
Caner has repeatedly claimed that his father was an architect, but the evidence we've located has not corroborated this assertion (link to discussion of the topic).So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed in a book edited by Norman Geisler (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link). (including claim to have worked on a mosque in Brooklyn and in Toledo)
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
d. "For lack of a better term, a missionary"?
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
e. Built Mosques?
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link) (but he didn't seem to know that mosques have minbars in another message at the same church)So he claimed to Richard Land (link), including claiming to have built them in Toledo and Columbus, Ohio (see this special item regarding the Toledo mosque).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at Baptist General Conference of Oklahoma (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
f. Surrounded by Caliphats (sic) at his death?
See the discussion here (link).g. Father's "Wives" / Polygamy
One of the claims he made about his father is that his father had "other wives" besides Caner's mother or "many wives." While it appears Caner's father did remarry after divorcing, there does not appear to be any way to substantiate these seeming allegations of polygamy.i) His father had "more than one wife at a time"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
ii) His father had three wives
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
i) His father had "many wives"
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed in his lecture, "Don't mess with the book" (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
ii) His father had "multiple wives"
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
iii) His father had "other wives"
So he claimed in "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed to Pastor Lloyd (link).
So he claimed at the Value Voters Summit 2009 (link).
So he claimed at FBC Pearl City (link).
iv) His Mom discovered his father was married to more than one woman
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
v) His Father immigrated with wives (sometimes with reference to Abraham lie)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
vi) His Father's "Second Wife" convinced the brothers to visit their dying father
So he claimed in Unveiling Islam (link)
vii) His Father Divorced his Mother because the Father blamed her for the Sons' (or Ergun's) Conversion
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
11. Mother Issues
Sometimes, Caner has portrayed his mother as though she were a devout or practicing Muslim. She may have been for a while, but Emir's accounts portray her as more of a hippy universalist, by the time that Ergun Caner allegedly converted.a. Took off her Hijab or Chador in Baptistry
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)
So he claimed at the California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006 (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
b. Wore the Chador
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
c. Wore the Chador even after the brothers' conversion
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
d. Mother was a Wahabi
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
e. Mother was a Sufi
So he seemingly claimed to Richard Land (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
12. Half-Brothers
We can't find any evidence of Caner having any half-brothers. For example, no such men are found in Acar Caner's will. Nevertheless, Caner has claimed to have them.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
13. Half-Sisters "Learning to Read"
In 2005, he claimed his half-sisters were only now learning to read, thanks to the Marines (link). His father died in 1999, and his daughters were probably born significantly before that.14. Seemingly Unrelated Issues
Not all of Caner's seeming embellishments relate to supposedly being a devout Muslim. The following are some examples of issues where one's eyebrows are raised:a) Fat as a Child?
See the discussion here (link)
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
b) Father-in-law from "Possum Kill, NC"?
There is a separate post on this subject (link). In short, there does not appear to be such a place. I'm told that when Caner was at Liberty he had some kind of row boat with "Possum Kill" lettered on the side, but I can't confirm that this.
So he claimed at Bell Shoals (link).
So he claimed at Liberty Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at Olive Baptist (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at FBC Mount Vernon (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed at the Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
c) First Job
i) Not a Convenience Store
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
He claimed he didn't work at a convenience store, at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
ii) A Convenience Store
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
He claimed he worked at a 7-11 to the Marine Corps (link).
d) Roller Skating
i) Overdid it
So he claimed at Fall Chapel 2010 (link)
ii) You can't roller skate in sand
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link)
(See here)
e) Church in which he was Saved
i) Doesn't exist any more
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
ii) Still exists
It does apparently exist.
f) Was a Straight C Student in College
So he claimed at GGBTS (link), although he apparently was a Presidential scholar in college. (At Olive Baptist (link) and at West Cabarrus Church (link) he suggested he was a straight C student in high school.)
g) Claimed He was Tasered in a way that was very painful
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
h) Was "Finishing Up" his Doctorate in 1999
So he claimed at the National Conference on Christian Apologetics 2013 (link).
i) Received his Doctorate in 2001
So he claimed at ErgunCaner.com (link).
B. Debating Claims
There are very few things that Caner has done (that we know of) that could qualify as debates. Apparently, Caner engaged the Rational Response Squad in some kind of dialog some years ago, and apparently Caner had an email exchange with one Muslim apologist. Caner may also have appeared on TV along side a Muslim talking head (although I can't seem to find any such clip of Caner). Aside from this, we are still hoping to find some evidence of Caner actually debating anyone, although Caner does seem to have brought a few speakers into class for an informal dialog (as discussed here). Nevertheless, we see Caner making a number of claims.1. Formal Debates with Timed Speeches, etc.
Sometimes people have claimed that Caner just meant informal dialogs. On at least one occasion, Caner explicitly described the alleged kind of format of these debates.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
2. "I do Debates" or "Muslims ... will debate us" (or similar phrase)
So he claimed with Craig von Buseck (link).So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
3. Frequent Debates
In a number of places, Caner claims that his life includes a lot of getting yelled at in debates or speaking to hostile crowds.So he claimed with Tom McCall
So he claimed on iTBN.
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
4. "Many Debates over the past 10 years"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).5. 13 Colleges and Universities
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).6. Debate at University of North Texas
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).7. Debated Imam named "Abi"
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).
8. Debated Ulima and Imams
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).9. Debated Woman Muslim Scholar
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link). (Allegedly on Wayne Shepherd open line radio / Moody show)So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link). (Only here he claims it was at the University of Chicago)
So he claimed on the Rick and Bubba Show (link).
10. 41 Debates
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).So he claimed to the students at SBTS (link).
11. 60 Debates / Sixty-some-odd Debates
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).12. Debated Shabir Ally
So he claimed at SBTS in front of Mohler (link).So he claimed to Richard Land (link).
13. Debated in Nebraska
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).14. Debated "Sunni, Sufi, Alawite, Shia" Muslims
So he claimed in his testimony at Free CD Tracts (link).15. Had enough to debates to refer to them as "every debate" or "all of my debates"
So he claimed in From Islam to Christianity (link)So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
16. Was "Rushed" on the Platform
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).17. Twelve Years of Debating
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).18. Debated in May 2005
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).19. Debated at the University of Chicago
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).20. About Fifty Debates per Year
So he claimed at the North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 (link).21. Gets Debate Opponents to Sign Contract - No Payment Requirement
So he claimed at Olive Baptist (link).So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
22. Was Headed to Kenya to Debate Maathai Tribesman who were Muslims
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).23. Debated Muslims in St. Louis
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).24. Debated a Muslim at Texas Tech University (Allegedly Recorded)
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).25. Debated Michael Moore and Called him a "Fat Pig"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).26. Debates "Muslims and B'hai and Buddhists and Hindi and all types"
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).27. Debated Homosexuals
So he claimed to Janet Parshall (link).28. Debated in London and Glasgow
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).29. About to Debate Hindu (Shaivite) and a "Christian professor" on "Sister Faiths"
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).C. Incorrect Statements Regarding Islam/Hadith/Koran
One troubling aspect of Caner's autobiography is that he presents himself as a former devout Muslim, steeped in knowledge of Islam, etc. On the other hand, he makes a number of erroneous statements about the Koran, Hadith, and Islamic issues. I haven't even bothered to document all the times he has cited the Hadith as "Hadith 9:57" or the like.1. Mohammed/Koran Teaches that Ishmael not Isaac was almost killed by Abraham
A number of times, Caner has claimed that the Koran teaches (or Mohammed taught) that Ishmael, rather than Isaac, was nearly sacrificed on the mount. While such a view is widespread among modern Muslims, you can't find that statement in the Koran.So he claimed with Tom McCall.
So he claimed at Superconference 2005.
So he claimed on Issues Etc.
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
2. Mohammed Borrowed from the Gospel of Barnabas
A number of times, Caner has claimed that Mohammed borrowed from the Gospel of Barnabas. This is impossible, since the Gospel of Barnabas was written hundreds of years after the Koran.So he claimed on iTBN.
Se he claimed on Issues Etc.
So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
3. Mohammed Didn't Believe we Worship the Same God
Caner sometimes claims (quite correctly) that we don't worship the same deity as Islam. However, Caner has also alleged that Muslims, and at least in one case Mohammed himself, also do not believe this (link to "Secrets of Islam" discussion of this point). Caner is wrong, as far as the Koran is concerned.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed on the John Ankerberg Show (link)
4. Circumcision is called "Maşallah" in Islam
So he claimed in "Why I am not a Muslim" (link).Actually, that's not the Arabic or Turkish word for circumcision. Moreover, oddly enough, Caner also claimed that was the name of the prayer beads in Islam, on Issues Etc. (link).
5. You're Supposed to say "Inshallah" after You Experience Some Misfortune
As explained at the links, "inshallah" is a forward-looking statement like "Lord willing."So he claimed in "Why I am not a Muslim" (link).
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
6. Surah 1 has Six Verses
In fact, by the usual Sunni enumeration, it has seven verses.So he claimed in "Why I am not a Muslim" (link).
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).
So he claimed at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).
So he claimed at West Cabarrus Church (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
7. Eid al-Adha is the Celebration at the End of Ramadan
So he claimed in "The Secret of Islam" (link).It actually comes a couple of months later.
8. Eid al-Fitr is the Commemoration of Abraham's Near-Sacrifice of His Son
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).9. Ramadan has 40 days?
So he claimed in PHIL104 (link).So he claimed at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge (link).
It actually has about 29 days. It's a lunar month. It never has 40 days.
10. Abinadab is a Pillar of Islam
This one is a real puzzle, since none of the pillars sound like "abinadab". He seems to use that term to refer to the Shahada, but sometimes later seems to add the Shahada as one of the pillars as well.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Thomas Road Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at the Master's College (link).
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).
11. Hadith is Nine Volumes
The English translation of one of the collections is nine volumes, but there are other collections and the entire body of hadith is not complete in those nine volumes.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
So he claimed at Southwest Baptist Church (link).
12. Strict Muslims Don't Allow Their Photographs to be Taken
So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).13. Training School is called a Madras (sic)
I think you may find other examples of this, but Caner seems sometimes to refer to a madrassa as a madras.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
14. There is no Pulpit in a Mosque
This is a particularly remarkable claim for someone who claims to be the son of a mosque architect.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
15. If a Christian speaks in a Mosque, the Mosque would have to be razed
Again, this is a very strange claim - but it does suggest that Caner has not spoken in many mosques.So he claimed at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).
16. Confused about Relationship between John 14 and Surah 61:6 and the name Mohammed / its meaning
So he appeared to be at Ashburn Baptist Church (link).17. Baruch as a Major Prophet of Islam
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).18. Injeel is a term for evil spirits?
So he claimed to Richard Land (link).19. Singing is Forbidden in Mosques?
So he claimed at GGBTS (link).20. Garbled Surah 61 Relationship to John 16
So he did at GGBTS (link).21. Claimed there is a meeting of the "caliphat" [sic] every 8 years
So he did at the Northwest Baptist Conference (link).22. Claimed there are Four Collections of the Hadith
So he did to the Marine Corps (link).23. Mohammed Got the Koran on His 40th Birthday
So he claimed to the Marine Corps (link).24. Muslims Pray to the East
So he claimed to the Ohio Free Will Baptists (link).D. Bibliography of Sources
I have limited time. The following should provide links to the various sources used above, but there is much more out there, even despite some seeming efforts to sanitize the web.Main Sources
1. Conversation with Tom McCall
2. "What Worship Looks Like" FBC Lyons, November 17, 2013
3. 2013 Summer Bible Conference, July 21, 2013
4. iTBN Contributions
5. Pastor's Perspective, January 22, 2010 (also mentions Prestonwood Sermon) (see this comparison to other testimonies)
6. Buffalo Creek Baptist Church - Easter 2013
7. "Rip the Roof Off" at Bell Shoals - 2010
8. SBTS Panel Discussion - November 14, 2003
9. Testimony at Free CD Tracts
10. From Islam to Christianity - November 2, 2009
11. Interview with Craig von Buseck (original material)
12. Watchmen on the Wall - 2013
13. Liberty University - Superconference 2005
14. "My Conversion from Islam to Christianity"
15. Fall Chapel 2010
16. The Secret of Islam - May 6, 2011
17. Why I am not a Muslim - May 7, 2011
18. The Secret of Islam - October 29, 2011
19. Ergun Caner in Others' Books - Various
20. Liberty Baptist Church - October 10, 2010
21. Values Voter Summit 2010
22. PHIL104 "Contemporary World View"
23. Foreword to Louis Ruggiero's Book
24. Issues Etc. (multiple appearances)
25. Ashburn Baptist Church (2003 - 2005, various messages)
26. John Ankerberg Show (numerous pre-2013 clips)
27. Campus Church 2008 (various messages)
28. Faith and Family Interviews (Richard Land, interview - various dates)
29. California Christian Apologetics Conference 2006
30. Thomas Road Baptist Church Sermons (various)
31. Zola Levitt (ZL 338 - Signs of the End 2001)
32. Excerpts from Unveiling Islam (link)
33. Testimony on LeeStrobel.com
34. Southwest Baptist Church - January 23, 2010
35. Turkish Article interviewing Caner - June 13, 2003
36. "The Greatest Day in Church" at Calvary Chapel Old Bridge - January 25, 2009
37. Pastor Lloyd Interviews Ergun Caner - January 2009
38. Chapter 14 of "Why I Am a Christian" (Norman Geisler, editor) (with some other tidbits from other books)
39. Lecture titled "Don't Mess with the Book" - January 5, 2009
40. My Summary of Caner's Yearbook Information and related thoughts (And my earlier attempt at a reconstructed biography)
41. Value Voters Summit 2009
42. North Alabama Bible Conference 2005 ("Church House or Jail House" was title of message)
43. Messages in San Diego, May 1-2, 2010
44. Rick and Bubba Show (several parts)
45. GGBTS 2010 Missions Conference (February 12-14, 2010)
46. The Master's Pulpit (April 2, 2003)
47. Olive Baptist (September 13, 2009)
48. Northwest Baptist Conference (2007 and 2009)
49. Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma - Annual Meeting 2009
50. International Missions Conference 2008 - Forest Baptist Church, November 2, 2008
51. Harold Hendrick Interview - September 3, 2009
52. First Baptist Church, Pearl City, Hawaii - June 1, 2007
53. First Baptist Church, Mount Vernon, Georgia - March 2, 2014
54. West Cabarrus Church - July 18, 2010
55. U.S. Marine Corps, New River, NC - September 15, 2005
56. Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 - February 21, 2010
57. Janet Parshall's "Talking it Over" - January 10, 2009
58. ErgunCaner.com and National Conference on Christian Apologetics - October 2013
59. Ohio Free Will Baptists - Men's Retreat Early 2007
60. Southcrest Baptist Church - April 13, 2013
61. SBTS Address to Students - November 13, 2003
Some additional sources
1. Middle Name Usage Sources
2. Translation Claims Sources
3. Various News Sources Reports of Caners' testimony from 2001 and shortly thereafter (and compare this)
4. Caner's Class Discussions with people of other religions
5. A Page of Ergun Caner Materials
E. Caner's Swedish Grandmother:
There are a number of other interesting issues that you may enjoy reading about, of which Caner's grandmother is one. Role of Grandmother in Conversion (see also the discussion with Richard Land (link) regarding his grandmother teaching him to shave, in his father's absence) (see the discussion from Holier than Thou regarding Caner's grandmother raising him and the discussion at this link) (see the discussion of Caner's pre-2001 testimony).F. Responses to Objections
Not everyone agrees that Caner sometimes embellished his autobiography and some people raise objections to criticisms leveled at him.1. What about Caner's Alleged Apology? (links to discussion: part 1- part 2)
2. What about the testimony of Jamal Jivanjee? (see discussion here and here)
3. Geisler debate issues
a. "Response to Norman Geisler on Ergun Caner"
b. "Dr. Norman Geisler Digs Himself a Deeper Hole"
c. "Geisler Digs Yet Deeper"
d. "Responding to Norman Geisler's Defense of Caner - Part 1"
e. "Responding to Norman Geisler's Defense of Caner - Part 2"
f. "Wrapping Up Geisler's Defense of Caner"
g. "Dr. White's Responses to Dr. Geisler"
h. "Some Things Dr. Geisler Overlooked"
i. "Rebutting Norman Geisler"
j. "Is Lying a Moral Issue?"
k. "Norman Geisler on Lying as a Moral/Ethical Issue"
G. Items Not Included
I have omitted a lot of possible material. The things I have not discussed above include (among other things):Mispronunciation of words, like Sawm (but see discussion here, for example) and curious claims like praying in the locker room (see the discussion here, for example) I also did not include the impression of Caner that Fallwell received and expressed (link to discussion). I did not get into the issue of how many books exactly Caner has published (some discussion on that here) or his qualifications (see discussion here) or credentials (link) or the issue of calling his doctorate from the University of South Africa a PhD (see example here). I didn't discuss Tom Chantry's multipart series comparing Ergun Caner to Stephen Ambrose (link). I didn't discuss Caner's tasering incident, which he mentioned at GGBTS (link). Nor did I get into the issues of his alleged class rank in high school (link). I didn't mention his issues with the Latin language (see the example at this link).
I have not discussed the question of the age of his grandma at her baptism: I believe I've heard 92 (at FBC Mount Vernon and at the National Conference on Christian Apologetics), 93 (at Shades Mountain Independent Church and implicitly at Southcrest Baptist Church), 95 (at FBC Pearl City), and 99.
I have not discussed his profane language as evidence in the videos of his presentations to the Marine Corps (link).
I have not listed the times where Dr. Caner has said that he did not see his dad for "17 years" (one example was at FBC Mount Vernon (link)).
I have not included material regarding his brother Emir, except where they were both speaking or writing together such as at Olive Baptist (link), where Emir acknowledged that "Swedish, that's our native tongue."
I had trouble describing this now-removed video and consequently omitted it from the listings above (link to materials).
I hope that God will use this post for his glory and that it will encourage Dr. Caner to confess, repent, and be restored.
-TurretinFan
Updates:
3/20/14 - Added Olive Baptist messages
3/23/14 - Added NW Baptist Conference messages
3/24/14 - Added Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma message
3/25/14 - Added International Missions Conference message
3/28/14 - Added Harold Hendrick Interview
3/30/14 - Added FBC Pearl City message
3/31/14 - Added FBC Mount Vernon message
4/1/14 - Added West Cabarrus Church message
4/23/14 - Added Marine Corps Videos
4/24/14 - Added Shades Mountain Missions Conference 2010 message
4/25/14 - Added Janet Parshall Interview
4/26/14 - Added National Conference on Christian Apologetics 2013/ErgunCaner.com
4/30/14 - Added Ohio Free Will Baptists - Men's Retreat Early 2007 (further updated 5/10/14)
5/3/14 - Added Southcrest Baptist Church message
5/15/14 - Added SBTS address to students
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