Tuesday, April 20, 2010

Ergun Caner, Rick and Bubba, and Daisy Duke: How LBTS Does Apologetics

Ergun Caner was on the nationally broadcast "Rick and Bubba Show." The name may sound a little backwoods to my urban readers, but Ergun Caner's own web page makes a big deal about this show (link to discussion). This is touted on that link as being an example of how LU does apologetics: "As you can see at LBTS, we don't just talk apologetics, we do apologetics."

You can imagine our disappointment then at listening to the show, particularly the linked five and a half minute segment (the entire show apparently stretched to 90 minutes, this appears to be the first segment of the show) and finding the following comments (link to clip from start of show):

1) "I was raised in - I'm Turkish - 21 generations"

This may be technically true, because he changed his sentence halfway through, but he is giving the false impression he came from Turkey. Instead, he came from Sweden.

2) "Came to America when I was 13 years old."

As far as we can tell he was 4 years old, or so, when he came to America from Sweden.

3) "My father wasn't the imam but he was the 'ulema' one of the scholars in the mosque."

Elsewhere in Caner's discussion of his father, his father takes on various roles in the mosque. As best we can gather from the conflicting evidence, his father occasionally served as a "مؤذن mu’aḏḏin" which is not a kind of scholar, but rather someone who leads the prayers (something like a worship leader).

4) "This was the 70's, '78."

Caner was born in 1966, so Caner wasn't 13 until 1979. Moreover, Caner came to America around 1970. (UPDATE: I say "around 1970" because all we know for sure is that it was between 1968 when Ergun's brother Erdem was born and 1970 when Ergun's brother Emir was born.)

5) "Lost my family, lost everything"

He was disowned by his non-custodial father. It is a sad loss to be disowned by one's father, but it is not quite the same as being disowned by one's entire family and losing everything.

6) "That's the only television I saw - the only American television, the only American television in Turkey, was whatever got approved, and so we got the Dukes of Hazzard ... "

a) Ergun didn't live in Turkey.

b) We're supposed to believe that Islamic Turkish censors approved the Dukes of Hazzard?

c) The Dukes of Hazzard didn't start until January 26, 1979

You might think that "Dukes of Hazzard" was just a slip of the tongue. But on another occasion, Ergun Caner made the same claim and further embellished it: "The second television we received was a thing called, 'The Dukes of Hazzard.' Man- whew - I know we in church and everything, but I wanted to marry Daisy. I wanted to go to the Boar's Nest - I wanted to drive a car like this ..." (link to clip).

7) "... every two weeks we would get out of Georgia, from TBS, Gordon Solie Georgia Championship Wrestling."

TBS was launched December 17, 1976, which is also when the show (with TBS as a station) hit satellite. As noted above, Caner came to America with his family from Sweden in 1970. (UPDATE: as noted above, 1970 is the latest date, based on the fact that Emir was born in the U.S.)

Was the remainder of the 90 minutes better than the first five? I hope so. I'm sure Dr. Caner has a lot of good things to say. I've heard him say some pretty intelligent things. Nevertheless, may I suggest that this is not what LBTS wants to list as being an example of how LBTS does apologetics.

-TurretinFan

UPDATE: I found a second segment (here).  In the second segment he claims he was raised in a madrasa in Istanbul, Turkey - and he says that twice and claims that it was a Sunni madrasa.  He claims that his high school friend evangelized him for four years.  He claims he does debates.

And a third segment (here).  Ergun uses a fake foreign language while purporting to provide an original language for a message on a wall in a mosque in Kabul, allegedly translated as: "Do not teach the women to read and write." 

And a fourth segment (here).  Ergun claims to have been debating a woman in Chicago when the topic of Surah 4:34, and the question of whether the Koran means that men should beat their wives.

41 comments:

The Squirrel said...

The evidence that has been documented is so very, very overwhelming that the longer Dr. Caner and Liberty University wait before dealing with this honestly, the worse the fallout will be.

Squirrel

natamllc said...

Well

listening to that clip, one would believe he was "Turkish" and while living in "Turkey" he watched American T.V. programs that were approved by the Turkish T.V. police.

Previous clips, as I recall, place his birth in Sweden.

It makes you wonder just what "spirit" not only he is speaking from, but also, of what "spirit" his hosts are associating with?

Yes, the longer this professional charade goes on, as Squirrel has pointed out, the worse the whole thing will end up being.

Pro 26:24 Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart;
Pro 26:25 when he speaks graciously, believe him not, for there are seven abominations in his heart;
Pro 26:26 though his hatred be covered with deception, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
Pro 26:27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it, and a stone will come back on him who starts it rolling.
Pro 26:28 A lying tongue hates its victims, and a flattering mouth works ruin.

Coram Deo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Coram Deo said...

Frankly it's nothing short of appalling that the president of a well known seminary (LU) can:

a) continue telling bald faced lies about his bio in a public forum, even after "correcting" his bio in another public forum (LU's website).

b) apparently remain unconfronted about continually telling bald faced lies about his bio in a public forum by his seminary's board of regents/directors/trustees.

c) evidently remain defiantly unrepentant about continually telling bald faced lies about his bio in public forums.

I can only conclude that Caner has lived and told his lies for so long that he either:

a) believes his own lies are true, and is utterly self-deceived

or

b) is consciously aware of his deceptions and willfully desires to mislead his listeners

Under any circumstances he needs prayer, and he needs quit living out his false persona. If he's unwilling to do this by his own volition, then it's incumbent upon those who will someday give account of his soul to exercise loving but firm discipline upon him in accordance with the scriptures.

His "embellishments" [read lies] have been clearly exposed, and every day that they're allowed to continue to fester, and every time he continues to propogate these selfsame lies, the worse the situation becomes for both Caner personally, and Liberty University.

Liberty University's credibility is being dragged into the gutter by one man's sinful pride.

It's time to come clean, Ergun.

In Christ,
CD

Pilgrimsarbour said...

I think someone might have said this before someplace, but I also had thought of it: the whole sordid Caner affair reminds me of the Mike Warnke affair of some years ago.

MK said...

Hi Francis,

good work again,

just to let you know you have made an error regarding the word mu'athin.

a mu'athin is not a person who leads the prayer, or is a worship leader. a mu'athin is merely a person who stands up and gives the adhaan (call to prayer). A similitude of this in a christian context would be one who merely rings the church bell to let people know it's time for church. someone who merely rings a church bell isn't a worship leader unless they are the pastor too.

Ken said...

Turretinfan,
One thing that needs to be clarified -

I lived in Turkey for almost three years - (93, 94, 95) and they do not censor American TV shows nor American movies - sometimes they show nudity in the middle of the day - yes - you would be shocked.

They may have changed that recently, but when we lived there, I was really shocked by this supposedly Islamic country. It is not like Saudi Arabia or Iran.

Stereotypes were modified and some were destroyed by personal experience.

They had no problem at all showing TV shows like the Dukes of Hazzard on Turkish TV. Daizy Dukes in her short shorts and all.

they said to me, "it is the Americans fault" - "your culture made it" - "we are just enjoying what your culture made"

Turkey is a very secular government - almost agnostic or similar to many in the west - a Deist kind of mentality. There has been some push back from true Muslims and they are seeking to move things more toward conservative values in public, but if you go there, almost everything secular and "Hollywoodish" you see in NY city or Los Angeles is there in Istanbul and Ankara and other large cities.

but the people are 99 % Muslim in name and culture, but only about 10 % are practicing Muslims in the cities. Go outside of the cities, and they are more traditional and Islamic.

Ken said...

In Turkey - I was there recently on a 2 week trip -

One of the most funny things to watch is on the buses going from Istanbul to Ankara - they have portable TVs like in Airplanes every two or three seats - some in Taxis - the Turkish ladies with colorful head scarfs (some with black head coverings) watching the Turkish equivalent of MTV - very sexy like dancing, etc. - stuff that puts Madonna and Brittney Spears to shame - with the middle eastern type dancing - seeing all the conversative Turkish girls and ladies watching this TV is just very ironic.

I asked someone, "what are they thinking when they watch this?"

They said, "they are thinking they want to be like them" (they want to be like the sexy women dancers)

It is a massive contradiction/irony/tension - conservative outward culture, but watching all the TV and movies that come from the west and their own TV companies are creating their own versions of the same thing in their culture.

This stuff makes the real Muslims really angry.

But is shows that human beings are the same everywhere - sinful; and sin is a matter of the heart, an internal nature and disposition of pride, selfishness, lust; not outward conformity to laws, rituals, and dress standards.

Muslims desperately need the gospel and to understand the roots of sin; that external religion cannot change the heart; only Christ and His atonement and resurrection and the power of the Holy Spirit can.
Matthew 5:21-30
Mark 7:20-23
Genesis 6:5
Jeremiah 17:9

see (if you want) my ongoing discussion with a Muslim called the Grandverbalizer19 at David Waltz' blog: (in the comboxes - up to 249 today!)

http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2010/03/bible-prophecy-is-rise-muhammad-andor.html

Turretinfan said...

Understood, Ken. So the emphasis of my doubt should be on the fact that there was any "censor" at all - not on the idea that a "censor" permitted Daisy.

-TurretinFan

Ken said...

Yes, without personal knowledge of Turkey and being there; every one would naturally assume they would censor stuff like this;
(I would have thought the same - before I actually went there and experienced it.)

Another weird thing there is the day of rest is Sunday - they instituted that to be like Europe because they want to enter into the European Union. Real Muslims have to get off work mid-day Friday to go to the Friday prayers and preaching at the Mosque - which they easily agree to; but only about 10% of do that.

That was also shocking to me. I think every other Muslim country has Friday as the day of worship and rest.

So, yes, your assumption that they would censor these things is logical, given Islam's emphasis on external clothing issues; as in all Muslim countries, even Turkey - but they are quite worldly and their standards are contradictory to us conservative Christians - they don't seem to mind stuff from the west "as is", and then blame it on the west.

But the modern city Turks in Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir, Antalya are quite modern and they have sexy billboards and advertisements everywhere. It is really shocking.

Turretinfan said...

"a mu'athin is not a person who leads the prayer, or is a worship leader. a mu'athin is merely a person who stands up and gives the adhaan (call to prayer). A similitude of this in a christian context would be one who merely rings the church bell to let people know it's time for church. someone who merely rings a church bell isn't a worship leader unless they are the pastor too."

Thanks for the clarification. Allow me to provide some of my own.

In some Christian churches a portion of the worship includes singing by the congregants. This singing is led by a "worship leader" - a person who doesn't necessarily have any ecclesiastical rank. In some cases there is a "minister of music" but other times the "worship leader" is a man with a good voice who can carry the tune, or who can play a musical instrument (guitar or the like) that can help the people singing to stay on the correct musical notes.

It's not quite the same as the sexton (bell ringer), since the bells (in churches that have them) don't tend to be directly involved in worship. But it is a similar office that lacks ecclesiastical rank.

- TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

Ken:

Yes - not just my assumption - Caner says "whatever got approved" which suggests censorship. But Caner apparently never really lived in Turkey, which explains why he is giving us what appears to be the wrong idea.

-TurretinFan

Ken said...

Good point, TF,
When you put all the details together, as you and Dr. White and others have; it looks really bad for Ergun Caner and his tendency to exaggerate in order to, it seems, make his story/conversion more exciting.

MK said...

@Francis

"In some Christian churches a portion of the worship includes singing by the congregants. This singing is led by a "worship leader" - a person who doesn't necessarily have any ecclesiastical rank. In some cases there is a "minister of music" but other times the "worship leader" is a man with a good voice who can carry the tune, or who can play a musical instrument (guitar or the like) that can help the people singing to stay on the correct musical notes."

A mu'athin is quite literally somebody who stands up and says "come to prayer", that's all. It's not about leading the prayer or being the worship leader in any sort of musical or singing act. The reason why I said church bell, is because the local church here rings a bell when it is time for church.

Thank you again :)

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

These stories that Caner tells started way back in 2001, after 9/11, as evidenced by my blog post in which I provide exerpts from his November 20, 2001 sermon preached at FBC Jacksonville, Florida, in which Caner claims:

1. I was raised in "Eurrrope" (rolling his r's)

2. He was "trained in Islamic Youth Jihad";

3. He was "trained to do that which was done on 11 September".

So he came into the church (I was THERE, a member of the church) and he came to paint the portrait of himself as a trained jihadist terrorist, who came over here as a teenager to kill Americans.

For the next 9 1/2 years after that, he has traveled the country telling these same stories to hundreds and hundreds of churches.

Caner: "I Was Trained to Do That Which was Done on 11 September"

Mark said...

Actually, it looks like there was only one station in Turkey until 1986. That was TRT 1 which may not have been available to 100% of the country and was also in black and white.

Turretinfan said...

TBS went to satellite when it went on the air, as I noted in the article. A satellite downlink in the 70's or early 80's would have been a very expensive item, though. So I'm not sure that helps anything. Satellite reception would also not have required show-by-show Turkish approval, as far as I know (unless he's claiming that the Turkish television station retransmitted TBS).

The easiest explanation is that this portion of Caner's autobiography is fiction.

Turretinfan said...

"A mu'athin is quite literally somebody who stands up and says "come to prayer", that's all."

Oh. Ok. Thanks for the explanation. Yes, that sounds more like a sexton.

Has Caner at some point claimed that his father was a mu'athin? I had mistakenly assumed you were referring to a muezzin, who would be more similar to a worship leader, if I understand correctly. I have heard Caner make the latter claim, but I cannot specifically recall him claiming that his father was a mu'athin.

-TurretinFan

MK said...

A muezzin and a mu'athin are one in the same. Muezzin is Turkish whilst Mu'athin is Arabic. When Ergun says his father was a "moaaazeeeeen" - he is referring to Mu'athin/Muezzin - the one who gives the call to prayer. Not a worship leader or anything like that.

Turretinfan said...

The Arabic equivalent of muezzin, as far as I can tell, is "مؤذن mu’aḏḏin." Do you agree or disagree with me?

If so, it seems inaccurate to say that the mu'addin simply literally says "come to prayer." There seems to be a fine art to being a mu'addin. Let me know, though, whether you disagree.

Also, it seems to be interactive. Consider this explanation (obviously not from an authoritative source - let me know if you think it is wrong).

-TurretinFan

MK said...

Please don't be decieved by an english transliteration of an Arabic word. The transliteration on wikipedia for some reason has a double "d", there is no ﺩ (daal) or ﺽ (daad) in the word mu'athin. The letter used is ﺫ (dhaal) - which when conjoined with meem, noon and waw - sounds like - Mu'athin or Mu'adhin. There is no pronunciation of the letter D, it sounds like a "th" not a "da".

Wikipedia are not wrong, it's just that when using a transliteration, it's always good to know the Arabic alphabet too. Otherwise one will end up saying words in a manner in which they are not to be said, and thus, potentionally giving certain words a different meaning.

The mu'athin does literally tell people to "come to prayer". That is the sole purpose of the call to prayer. When the mu'athin says Hayya ala salah within the call to prayer - it means 'come to prayer'.

Turretinfan said...

Thank you for your comments about the Arabic, MK. Do you confirm that the appropriate responses (approximately, at least) to the Azaan are laid out in the yahoo answers link I provided?

If so, the responsive nature of the role would make the role of the Mu'athin more similar to that of a "worship leader" and less like a sexton, not that the distinction between those two really matters for our purposes here.

Neither a "worship leader" nor a sexton are scholars - and neither is a mu'athin (although, presumably a scholar could serve as a mu'athin).

-TurretinFan

Ken said...

MK is right about "Mu'athin", or "Mo'azeen"

or

muezzin, مؤذن

Turks (and Iranians) do not have the "th" sound of the Arabic letter, therefore they pronounce it as a "z". But some may transliterate it with a "d" or dh or dd.

Same for dhimmi, zimmi, and zhimmi - same letter.

But it is pronounced as MK says in Arabic.

The reason for the differences of spelling in English transliterations is that different Muslim countries (languages and ethnicities) pronounce words differently.

I remember my Arab friend Omar, visiting me in Turkey in 1993 and when he heard the call to prayer in Istanbul, he said, "Man, the Turks really butcher my language!"

MK said...

The problem here is that you are approacing the role of a mu'athin from a christian mind-set and then finding a suitable match within the context of your beliefs and practices.

A mu'athin/mu'adhin/muezzin is not a worship leader. A worship leader in a mosque would be the imaam, i.e. the one who leads the congregational worship. A mere mu'athin does not lead the congregational worship - thus - not a worship leader.

MK said...

You have also stated that Ergun moved to America from Sweden in the year 1970. May I ask you for evidence of this?

Or did you mean to write that he moved to America before Emir's birth which was in August of 1970?

If you analyse the dates, you will see that Ergun is the eldest, Erdem is the middle one and Emir is the youngest.

There is a 2 year age gap between Ergun and Erdem (both of who were born in Sweden). Ergun was born in 1966 whilst Erdem was born around 1968, thus Ergun possibly moved to America between 1968 and August of 1970. We don't actually know the exact year, so it's best to just stick to saying "before Emir's birth", otherwise people will think you are making stuff up.

Turretinfan said...

"Or did you mean to write that he moved to America before Emir's birth which was in August of 1970?"

Yes, I meant that 1970 is the latest that he came. Somewhere between 1968-1970.

Turretinfan said...

"The problem here is that you are approacing the role of a mu'athin from a christian mind-set and then finding a suitable match within the context of your beliefs and practices.

A mu'athin/mu'adhin/muezzin is not a worship leader. A worship leader in a mosque would be the imaam, i.e. the one who leads the congregational worship. A mere mu'athin does not lead the congregational worship - thus - not a worship leader."

The reason to find an analog is to help Christian readers understand.

-TurretinFan

Pilgrimsarbour said...

MK,

Evangelical Christians mean something different when we use the term "worship leader" than the way Muslims apparently use it. Some congregations have a small group of people called the "Worship Team," or "Ministry Team," which are usually lay people from the congregation who are tasked with compiling the music for the worship service and leading the congregational singing. They may also do special music presentations and have other duties which are not "official" in the sense that there are not church offices for those positions typically.

In our usage, the Pastor is not typically referred to as the "worship leader," because he doesn't usually lead the congregation in singing. It sounds odd to me too, but the idea of "worship teams" is a common evangelical practice, though much less so, I think, in Reformed (Confessional) churches.

In Reformed churches, the Pastor, along with the elders (and in some cases deacons) are ordained office holders, that is, they have an official standing in the local congregation and the synods or presbyteries to whom they are accountable. In our church, for example, we have a rotation of people in charge of the music, but I don't think they're called the "worship team," probably just "the music people" or some such. :-)

Pilgrimsarbour said...

We may actually have a guy that we might call the "worship leader" for that particular day--that means that he is in charge of leading prayer, making announcements, anything that is NOT giving the sermon, which is usually the purview of the Pastor.

natamllc said...

In a "True" sense, the "Priesthood of All Believers" on earth is the Leader.

For purposes of civil authority, the writing of contracts, the signing of documents, the handling of the funds within a given "Body" are all done by "functionaries" or "officials" of the Church.

There has to be "one" person who is the leader of this civil governing authority for the sake of clarity and rule. When you have more than one head on one's shoulders, you have a freak.

The idea of "a" laity and a clergy is not in Scripture.

A single pulpit pastor is not Scriptural.

There are Spiritual Leaders recognized by the Holy Spirit through the "Spiritual" "Body" and typically these leaders are known as "Pastors". To have a more comprehensive understanding of this in a narrower sense, refer to Eph. 4.

You would have to be a very small Body of Believers to have just "one" Pastor and a few Elders and Deacons governing the Body, spiritually a part of the Greater Church.

Agreed, there is one decision maker, for any particular "Body" of Believers, who is accountable to the officers and Brethren of the Church Body established by the Holy Spirit; Who is not, nor never will ever be divided from God, Our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior by virtue of His being born of a woman; and once matured for Public Ministry, He Himself suffered at the hands of godless men, then crucified and died on a cross and then buried by the hands of godless men; He then was raised from the dead by the Glory of the Father and now is actively building and conducting Church all around the world and in every nation on earth.

I know that defines things narrowly, but the idea of a "lay" person in the Church, well, it just isn't in the Bible!

God had a few things to say about the sins of the Nicolaitans:::>

Rev 2:6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Getting it right "Spiritually" in these days is utmost for the Priesthood to be powerfully affective in this world devils full, don't you think?

It might be because we haven't taken the time to establish this that things are the way they are in the world and in some parts of the Church?

Anyway, Ergun Caner is no Biblical Church Leader. He is a liar. He is of his father the devil. Beware of him because his words are leaven!

Coram Deo said...

MK,

As a Muslim you believe that the One True and Living God created Adam and Eve, and placed them in the Garden of Eden where Satan appeared as a serpent and seduced the woman into eating the forbidden fruit, and giving some to her husband to eat, correct?

If so, do also believe this promise was made by the One True and Living God?

"And the Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life; 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

If so, who is the only man from the time of Adam and Eve until today who was born only from a woman, and not from the union of a man and a woman?

The prophets foretold a Redeemer, for sinful, fallen mankind, and that Redeemer is Jesus Christ.

You must be born again.

In Christ,
CD

natamllc said...

CD,

you make the point clear.

I do want to add one thing lest MK thinks "being born again" is something he can do or men do?

This admission by the Apostle Peter is clear enough, I hope:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice in those sacred writings that Peter makes plain that "being born again" is something God does to us.

If we "must" be born again, it "must" be an "Act" of God upon the person born of man and woman, hence, being born again!

Just in case MK doesn't have the context of "we all must be born again", I will publish it, here:

Joh 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?"
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
Joh 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life

Jennifer said...

I've been lurking; now I'm commenting.

I've had "doubts" about Ergun Caner for years; ask my husband!

This latest post reflects exactly what my questions are regarding what he has said; what has come directly from his own mouth.

I'm tired of reading all the accusations his supporters are making towards those who are asking these kinds of questions.

This has nothing to do with theology, it has everything to do with integrity. Of couse, his supporters are trying to take the focus off of him.

I don't care what people have said he did or didn't do; I want answers for what I've heard him, out of his own mouth, say! Nothing "unChristlike" about that!

Thanks for writing this so succinctly!


I've noticed that his "supporters" haven't made the jump over here to comment......

natamllc said...

Also, there is this interesting parallel with Ergun Caner in the verses following those I published that establish one's "birth" into the Kingdom of God:::>

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Here is the judgment with which we can judge a man like Ergun Caner.

Consider deeply what is being established in verses 20-21 when you think to judge why Ergun Caner will not come into the "light" of the observations of the various and many discrepancies found throughout his life's story told by him and accurately retold in here by TurrentinFan.

One would think that with so many discrepancies, one would want to come "into the light" of Truth and clear up the confusion for the Lord's sake?

"....And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

Dan said...

He says that his wife's father is from "Possum Kill, North Carolina". I've tried several spellings of this, and I can't find any evidence that such a town exists.

Turretinfan said...

I'm guessing it doesn't exist.

The one reference to it that I could find was in:

"The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics" By Ed Hindson, Ergun Caner (p. 327)

Go Share Your Faith said...

TF,
Just to clarify, you have:
2) "Came to America when I was 13 years ago."

And I believe that he actually said

2) "Came to America when I was 13 years OLD."

I'm not defending this particular age, just pointing out what I THINK he said...it seemed pretty audible and clear to hear.

Turretinfan said...

Corrected, thank you!

Moses Model said...

I would love post use this clip from the Rick and Bubba show, but do you still have the full 90 minutes?

turretinfan said...

There are four segments linked in the post (see the update at the bottom). I think that is the full show, but I am not sure. It seems a little short, but a lot of the 90 minutes may have been advertisements and station breaks.

Moses Model said...

Thanks, I will look into it.