Thursday, June 10, 2010

Falwell on Ergun Caner

I recently discovered a February 12, 2005, article in World Net Daily by Jerry Falwell (link to article). There are a few interesting things to note from the article.

Falwell makes the same "an ulema" mistake we've seen elsewhere:
On Feb. 4, to the surprise of thousands of Liberty University students, I arose in a convocation service to announce that Dr. Ergun Caner, a converted Sunni Muslim and son of an ulema (Muslim scholar), was to be the first former Muslim to become the dean of an evangelical seminary in the United States. In fact, he will become dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary on the campus of Liberty University, the school I founded in 1971.
Falwell also seemed to think that Caner had already had numerous debates, although no one can seem to locate them now:
Dr. Caner has also become a voice for evangelical Christianity in the national media, debating Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Bahai leaders on more than 50 college and university campuses.
Falwell seems familiar with 1982 alleged conversion date and the claim that Caner's "family" disowned him, despite the evidence that his mother and grandmother raised him:
A Turkish immigrant who converted to Christianity in 1982, Dr. Caner immigrated with his family to America to build mosques in the Midwest. It was while he was in high school in Ohio that a young friend invited him to church and led him to Christ. He was subsequently disowned by his family.
...
"I still see myself as that little church orphan boy, sitting in the pew in a country church outside of Columbus, Ohio," Dr. Caner stated. "I cannot imagine how such a thing could come about."
Falwell seems to think that Caner received his doctorate from the University of South Africa in 2000, although the evidence suggests a later date (see also here):
In 2000, Dr. Caner received his Doctor of Theology from the University of South Africa in residence in Johannesburg.
I don't have any reason to doubt Falwell's sincerity, but it is troubling to think that his selection of Dr. Caner seems to have been premised on a number of things that are open to doubt: debates we cannot find and other claims that don't seem to match the facts.

-TurretinFan

UPDATE: See also this video of Falwell discussing Caner at Liberty University Superconference 2005, note the "they'd come from Turkey" idea that Falwell had.

94 comments:

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

You know FT as I stated before your one of the few THEOLOGICALLY CONSISTENT Christians I have met. That said I hope that you will be consistent in your exposure of truth as well.

http://yahyasnow.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/christian-scholar-james-white-lets-the-ministry-down/#comment-70 < This is a VERY SERIOUS issue that James White should be quick to address, btw I have downloaded the video from youtube so I hope he doesn't pull the switch a roo on us.

Apparently James White Arabic teacher (whom we do not know the name of or qualifications of) was teaching us Surah Al Fatiha.

The man made a huge blunder on this surah. He says bismillah ir rahman ir raheem, ar rahman ar raheem, ....

ummm where is the Al hamdulillahi rabil 'alameen?

Please see here: http://transliteration.org/quran/WebSite_CD/MixYuwsuf/Fram2E.htm

If a teacher of Arabic can make such mistakes this is all the amunition that Caner and his supporters need.

Now I know you may not care for me or my theology as a Muslim, but I do believe that you are stand up man.

I don't really care for White but I believe I can count on you since you have taken White to task for his inconsistent views on baby baptism. Good on you!

I'm sending the same information to Debbie Kaufman, Peter Lumpkins, Tim Guthrie, Hussein Wario etc.

I hope that when we do whistle blowing that it whistle works just as well on Calvinist as it does on Arminians.

Turretinfan said...

Thanks for your kind words, and the correction.

James White's Arabic tutor is a Syrian Christian. He speaks Arabic natively, but was never a Muslim.

Is your criticism that he missed words (i.e. that he missed the second verse and jumped to the third one?) or that he did not complete the particular chapter or verse?

I realize that this may be blindingly obvious to an Arabic-speaking Muslim, but it is less obvious to me. Please try to help me understand better your criticism of Dr. White's video.

Considering that Lumpkins chastised Dr. White for correctly pronouncing the word "Koran," I'm pretty sure he'll use any ammunition he can find.

Please keep in mind that neither Dr. White nor his tutor claims to be an "expert in Islam."

- TurretinFan

natamllc said...

TF,

over at Triablogue, one of them posted a thread addressing this matter of Dr. Caner.

Over there I posted a comment with this verse, which, seems appropriate to post over here now that you make the link to Dr. Falwell Sr.:

Pro 29:12 If a ruler listens to falsehood, all his officials will be wicked.


This error should not be taken lightly by the Administration of Thomas Road, Liberty University or any Collegiate association to them.

There truly is a place for forgiveness.

There truly was a problem of falsehood and lying with some in the Biblical record, such as that verse from Proverbs indicates or the book of Titus points about all Cretans are liars.

Dr. Caner shouldn't become so hopeless and despairing of his errors. The transgression is forgivable and restoration is necessary.

I would hope those investigating the matter have a chance to review your work herein because as has been said previously a few times already by comments in here and even now with the one above by tgv19 that your handling of this has been fair and consistent not prone to extreme emotional swings, disputes or conclusions!

May the Lord richly bless your efforts!

terriergal said...

grandverbalizer, I think James would be happy to be corrected if in fact you are right. His latest youtube video on "who can speak truth" is excellent. He takes on people who have chastised him for listening to non-Christians and giving them credit (including Muslims) when they do speak in accord to what we believe to be true. It was very good. Even though you do not like him I think you would appreciate that one.

TF, thank you for keeping on this issue. Your blog has been a valuable resource in piecing together this mess. It is so convoluted it is very hard for some to get their heads around. They simply can't believe someone so prominent would do this so pervasively.

Coram Deo said...

thegrandverbalizer19,

Do you believe that in the garden God promised that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent, after the serpent deceived the woman into eating the forbidden fruit?

Who is the only One born as the seed of the woman (not of the joining of a man and a woman) other than Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ is only One born as the seed of a [virgin] woman, and He is the One who crushed the head of the serpent as promised by God through His perfect life, His perfect death, and His perfect resurrection.

Jesus Christ said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no man comes to God except through Him.

You must be born-again or will never see the Kingdom of God because no sin may enter into His Holy Presence, and there are no means whereby man can be cleansed from His sins but the blood of Jesus Christ.

God commands you to repent and believe on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

In Christ,
CD

natamllc said...

That was such a difficult thing for me to do, that is, to watch that clip, the introducing of Dr. Caner by Dr.Falwell at the "super conference 2005" and then listening to all that that Dr. Caner spoke.

Oh, I would to God someone who knows and understands the Muslim Faith and speaks Arabic could interpret those portions of that clip?

Does the Koran acknowledge that Abraham raised his dagger to slay Ishmael or Isaac? Is that correct what Dr. Caner claims?

How ironic of Dr. Caner to say something to the effect as for "knowing" Truth so as to know when one is being lied too! To know lies by knowing the Truth, well again, I am going to just cling to these verses of Scripture and "not mess with them" and not to what I just heard Dr. Caner say in that clip:

Pro 26:24 Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart;
Pro 26:25 when he speaks graciously, believe him not, for there are seven abominations in his heart;
Pro 26:26 though his hatred be covered with deception, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
Pro 26:27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it, and a stone will come back on him who starts it rolling.
Pro 26:28 A lying tongue hates its victims, and a flattering mouth works ruin.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

TF thank you for allowing me to post. I was right about you Al hamdulillah.

You asked,

"Is your criticism that he missed words (i.e. that he missed the second verse and jumped to the third one?) or that he did not complete the particular chapter or verse?

I realize that this may be blindingly obvious to an Arabic-speaking Muslim, but it is less obvious to me. Please try to help me understand better your criticism of Dr. White's video."

My point is that the man who recited the most common oft repeated chapter of the Qur'an Surah Al Fatiha (the opening) missed completely 'al hamdulillahi rabil alamaeen which comes directly after bismillah ir rahman ir raheem.'

There fore the man made a huge blunder. I do hope that James corrects this. My friend Yahya Snow said he has sent several e-mail request and tried to link his video response to Oakley on youtube but has been blocked or has had e-mail ignored.

Now I understand that he can't be every where at once but I do hope that this is corrected.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto you Coram Deo

I would say that this is probably not the time or the place as this is TF blog and his dime to discuss all the points you brought up.


I first want to say thank you for sharing with me and admonishing me rather than spewing hate or attacking my faith. That right there is a sign of a true Christian.

That said you are most welcome to my blog to correct any of the points I have made. I have been mistaken before in the past, I have changed my world view before and I have had paradigm shifts that have only helped me to grow.

Some times such paradigm shifts can be painful adjusting to new facts and ways of thinking but it is refreshing at the end.

If TF allows I would like to share a link to a new post 'Walk On Water the Wisdom of Jesus' which is a collection of oral traditions that did not make it into the New Testament canon that are very much apart of Islamic sacred tradition.

http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2010/06/walk-on-water-wisdom-of-jesus.html

grace and peace

Coram Deo said...

thegrandverbalizer19,

I am not asking you to believe in a paradigm, or a worldview, I am asking you to trust in a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Lamb of God and the only holy sacrifice that ever was, or ever could be acceptable to God for the forgiveness of sins.

I plead with you to turn away from the religion of Islam which can only lead to eternal separation from God, because it has no provision to forgive sins as is proven by Surah 10:54 -

"Every soul that has sinned, if it possessed all that is on earth, would fain give it in ransom"

You are a sinner, even if you possessed the whole world and you offered as a sacrifice for your own sins, it would not be a sufficient sacrifice.

You cannot enter the presence of the infinite Creator and Judge of the universe with unforgiven sin in your heart.

You need a Savior. Jesus Christ came to seek and save the lost. He came to give His life as a ransom for many.

No other prophet ever claimed to be able to forgive sins, but Jesus Christ did claim that He had power on earth to forgive sins:

And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven." And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming." But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—he then said to the paralytic—"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." (Matthew 9:2–6).

Only Jesus can provide peace with God. This is why He said:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).

God commands sinners to repent and trust in the only provision for sin, Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

You must be born-again, turn to Christ and be saved.

In Christ,
CD

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Coram Deo. I did not mean any disrespect if you thought that I was trying to compare being in heaven with a shift in world view. However, this could work if you come from an Arminian perspective.

If you hold an Arminian theological perspective you will understand that I have to respond, and I can only respond to the evidences that have been presented to me.

However, if your theological perspective is Calvinist than you know that I may already be saved chosen before the foundation of the world.

Any way let's have a look at the points you raised.

You brought up (Matthew 9:2–6)and I think that is an interesting proof text for what you bring forth. However, I have often been puzzled why Christians always seem to prefer Matthew's narrative of the event over that of Marks.

To see my view on this perhaps you could make your point again to me concerning,

"No other prophet ever claimed to be able to forgive sins, but Jesus Christ did claim that He had power on earth to forgive sins:"

I am not here to be mean spirited but I would be interested to see if you could make the same point to me using Mark's narration of the event.

I would also like to address another proof text brought by you.

"Islam which can only lead to eternal separation from God, because it has no provision to forgive sins as is proven by Surah 10:54"

"Every soul that has sinned, if it possessed all that is on earth, would fain give it in ransom"

There are a few things that to say about this particular translation.

1) *note* Every soul THAT HAS sinned could be understood that NOT ALL souls have sinned.

2)This verse is also counter-productive to the point you wish to make namely that we are ransomed for our sins. Because this verse says that there is NOTHING on this earth that can ransom us.

This would include lambs, sheep and incarnate human beings. As they would now be part of the material existence.

"He came to give His life as a ransom for many."

*note* That it says that he did not come to give his life as a ransom for ALL.

I understand that Christians have many different theological perspectives when it comes to the issue of ransom and atonement. Allah-willing I plan to make a more indepth study of the issue in the future.

Now for your theological perspective God's wrath some how must be apeased. He has justice and mercy. But in our theological perspective God's mercy is more than his wrath.

“Your Lord has decreed upon Himself mercy” (Qur’an, 6:54).

The proof is in the pudding, do any of us even deserve existence? Do we deserve anything?

“And your Lord says, ‘Call upon Me; I will respond to you” (Qur’an, 40:60).

“But indeed, I am the Perpetual Forgiver of whoever repents and believes and does righteousness and then continues in guidance” (Qur’an, 20:82).

I thank you again for your response and I do not mean to cheapen faith or religion by calling it a paradigm shift as such. However such usuage would be allowed if we are to allow that humanity can respond to the divine.

Coram Deo said...

thegrandverbalizer19,

No one is forgiven of their sins apart from faith in Christ Jesus.

If we confess our sins, he [Jesus Christ] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

The Gospel accounts are complementary, not contradictory. There is no disagreement, but rather harmony between the Gospel writers such as Mark and Matthew.

You said: 1) *note* Every soul THAT HAS sinned could be understood that NOT ALL souls have sinned.

Have YOU personally sinned against God? Have you ever told a lie, been disobedient to your parents, looked upon a woman with a lustful eye?

Of course you have, therefore YOU personally need a Savior to redeem you from YOUR personal sin.

There's only ever been One Person Who lived a perfectly sinless life, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God and Bread of heaven.

You said: 2)This verse is also counter-productive to the point you wish to make namely that we are ransomed for our sins. Because this verse says that there is NOTHING on this earth that can ransom us.

Jesus Christ was the Bread Who came down from heaven. He alone is God's provision, the Lamb of God Who was slain. His provision is sufficient for all those who would come unto Him by faith believing.

You said: This would include lambs, sheep and incarnate human beings. As they would now be part of the material existence.

See response above. Jesus Christ, as you know, was not merely a man. He was a man, of course, but He was so much more...

You said: "He came to give His life as a ransom for many."

*note* That it says that he did not come to give his life as a ransom for ALL.


As previously mentioned His sacrifice is sufficient for all those believing. You must be born-again.

You said: Now for your theological perspective God's wrath some how must be apeased. He has justice and mercy. But in our theological perspective God's mercy is more than his wrath.

“Your Lord has decreed upon Himself mercy” (Qur’an, 6:54).


Upon Himself? God doesn't need mercy, sinners need mercy.

You said: The proof is in the pudding, do any of us even deserve existence? Do we deserve anything?

According to the Holy Bible all men deserve death and unspeakable punishment in hell fire forever and ever because of our sinful rebellion against our Holy Creator whose divine wrath abides upon all those who continue in sin.

You said: “And your Lord says, ‘Call upon Me; I will respond to you” (Qur’an, 40:60).

“But indeed, I am the Perpetual Forgiver of whoever repents and believes and does righteousness and then continues in guidance” (Qur’an, 20:82).


So as a Muslim believing these verses you must believe you can earn a right standing before God? You can do more good than bad to outweigh the scales? But you know this is impossible if you know your own sinful heart. You must be born-again.

As a Muslim you must also know that Moses appointed to Israel to sacrifice a lamb and shed its blood as a symbol of appeasement to God.

The true Lamb, the reality to which Moses' shadow pointed is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” (John 1:36)

You must repent of your sins and place your trust in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who is God's only provision for sin. You must be born-again.

In Christ,
CD

Turretinfan said...

TGV19:

I'm not sure if it is the correction that you would like, but Dr. White has noted and published your criticism and has responded to it.

here is the link

-TurretinFan

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

TF thank you. I took a look at the link. Hahaha good 'ol James.

My respects to you TF. James had to respond. However, Allah-willing I will make a post on why this does matter.

" We have a Christian (not a former Muslim) quoting the text BY MEMORY, not having ever been taught it, but only having heard it in Syrian culture so often that it "stuck," and he misses a single phrase, and this is somehow relevant? Something to be "exposed"?"

There are Muslims who do not know how to recite Surah Al Fatiha correctly. Keep in mind that the Central Asian Republics seperated from the USSR in 1991 and there are people in such regions that struggle with it.

The next point is also where James put his foot in his mouth. His Arabic tutor (obviously James needs to invest his money a little more wisely) was quoting from MEMORY.

James should have thought this out a little more. Because this is exactly what Lumpkins, Guthrie, and Wario can say too. Caner was quoting from MEMORY(albeit a distance childhood memory).

If this is the case and we take off our Arminian witch hunt armor, we can allow that Ergun atleast in SOME examples simply made mistakes of memory.

The thing I just don't understand and many people with me don't understand is James White's complete disregard for integrity and common sense.

continued...

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God,

for example how does Ergun Caner and what he does 'ruin the Gospel message for Muslims' and James White's debate partner Sam Shamoun can say things like "Since you don't want to answer the first question let me bury you in Muhammed's va*#@! and his mother's breast"

Please see here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun_low_class_4.mp3

This recieves no rebuke from James White and this does not ruin the gospel message for Muslims? Well it did for me!

This is extremely troubling for truth seekers. The inconsistency of James White, his questionable degree, his fudging on the issues of Total Depravity, and OSAS are just very, very sad.

I understand when we get old we get a little rusty, but clearly he needs to take a break and dust him self off a bit.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Coram Deo am I to understand that you do not wish to address my comments to you about the Gospel of Mark narrative?

You said,

"The Gospel accounts are complementary, not contradictory. There is no disagreement, but rather harmony between the Gospel writers such as Mark and Matthew."

O.K let's say for the sake of argument that I agree with that.

Am I to understand Coram Deo that you cannot use the Mark parallel account to advance your view that Jesus forgives sins?

Is this what I am to understand? Or am I to understand you simply wish not to comment on the matter at this juncture.

I appreciate the other text you bring up but I hope that we could stay focused.

Turretinfan said...

I don't approve of vulgar apologetics, no matter who is doing it, and despite the provocation that one hears in that clip. I assume this is a clip recorded on PalTalk many years ago? I trust that you will not hear Sam talking like that these days, but if you discover otherwise, I will be glad to hear.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

TF no matter what anyone tells you I like your hair! Seriously though, thank you for being a stand up person.

Yeah I trust SS has grown up quite a bit. You see he got the jump on the rest of the Christian apologist with his fancy web site and all.

But what really got me was the fact that this guy thought he was something going into Paltalk rooms to 'field test' his arguments against the unwary. I didn't find that too courageous.

This same person TF is for lack of a better description a 'love puppy' of James White and the man claims that the Qur'an says that Allah prays! Amazing!

I have offered for this man to go and take a basic Arabic entry exam (on my own dime) and than post the results for all and sundry on the internet.

I'm afraid TF that SS hasn't changed his ways.

I respect Christian apologist William Lane Craig, John Gilchrist, Tony Costa, Mary Jo Sharp, Gary Habermas and Mike Licona.

These people have class. You TF have class.

White and Sam I find them both to be rather uncouth.

natamllc said...

TGV19

Does the Koran teach that Abraham lifted his dagger to slay "Ishmael" or "Isaac" as Dr. Caner claims was the error when he and his students were at the Dome of the Rock in Israel?

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer, to verbalize grandly is to verbalize simply. Say, 'He is hoist on his own petard.'

Coram Deo said...

TGV19 said: Coram Deo am I to understand that you do not wish to address my comments to you about the Gospel of Mark narrative?

I wish to address the fact that you are a sinner with no way of salvation. How can you be freed from your sins, TGV19?

You must know that God is holy and He will never allow sin into his presence. As a Muslim what provision do you have to be freed from your sin? How can you ever hope to enter into the presence of God as a sinner?

I appreciate the other text you bring up but I hope that we could stay focused.

I too want to stay focused, on your sin. But you seem to be uncomfortable with that subject, so you seek to change it.

I want to help you. I don't want you to go to hell. I want to point you to the only provision that God has made for the remission of sins.

God's only provision for the remission of sins is the Lamb of God, the Bread of heaven, Jesus Christ.

God must be worshipped in truth, or else we are guilty of worshipping falsely.

God will judge and condemn all those who worship a false god, as well as those who worship the One True and Living God falsely.

Either of these options is idolatry, and is a great and grievous sin against God.

The worst thing about the worship of a false god, or the fales worship of the One True and Living God is that it makes the worshipper feel "religious" as though he is doing something good and can earn good from his god (or God) by his activity.

But the One True and Living God condemns these falsehoods equally, and He finds both of them equally repellant and repugnant.

The only true and acceptable worship of God is to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Jesus Christ said He and He alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that NO MAN can come to God (the One True and Living God), but by Him.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

You must be born-again. Repent and place your trust in Jesus Christ for remission of sins.

In Christ,
CD

Ex N1hil0 said...

Coram Deo wrote:

The worst thing about the worship of a false god, or the fales worship of the One True and Living God is that it makes the worshipper feel "religious" as though he is doing something good and can earn good from his god (or God) by his activity.

But the One True and Living God condemns these falsehoods equally, and He finds both of them equally repellant and repugnant.


Bingo. One of the things that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions, is that the God of Christianity--true, biblical Christianity--cannot be bribed.

Our holy, righteous and just Triune God cannot be bought! To attempt to do so, while required in all other religions, is condemned as damnable heresy in the one true revealed religion.

Turretinfan said...

TGV19: "the man claims that the Qur'an says that Allah prays!"

I haven't heard him use that argument. I've heard some folks point out that the Qur'an is written from a third party perspective, not from the perspective of Allah, because it includes prayers.

Thus, if someone insists that the author of the Qur'an is Allah, not Muhammad, the question arises how one should interpret the first Surah (see the English translation here).

- TurretinFan

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord...

Fredricka would you like to say petard or petar? I could see how the Welsh would confuse French pronunciations.

What choice am I given on this blogs but to express myself in English which sum have dubbed 'a bastard language'

please see: "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue" by John McWhorter.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord,

Natmllc

Does the Koran teach that Abraham lifted his dagger to slay "Ishmael" or "Isaac" as Dr. Caner claims was the error when he and his students were at the Dome of the Rock in Israel?

Natmllc I believe the Qur'an does not say who it was. Though Muslim tradition likes to say Ishmael though I do not know why. Jeffery Lang an American convert to Islam wrote a book 'Struggling To Surrender' and he deals with this point in his book.

As far as Dr. Caner making an error I would have to know exactly to what point you refer to. I think Caner is a fraud in many respects; however I think those of us weilding a sword at Caner could also use a good hard look in the mirror some times.

I Don't know what most Christians think about the Caner situation. If it was me he would no longer be Liberty president nor would he be a pastor. He would be given a years pay to into seclusion to pray and repent.

I think the man has charisma and it would be unwise for Christians to simply 'throw him away'. I think he was lured into doing much of what he did. I think Caner is not the only guilty party.

I also think that books authored by him on Islam should be returned for a complete refund.

I would like to see Caner publically apologise to both Muslims and Christians for this whole debacle.

I think he would make a good youth minister, or someone who lead youth groups on camping trips as such. He would make a good progigal son story.

But these are just my views on it.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, two post up should be these blogs rather than this blogs. Also should be some rather than sum.

My moniker is not thegrandwriter19 for good reason hahah

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord,

Turretinfan said...
TGV19: "the man claims that the Qur'an says that Allah prays!"

I haven't heard him use that argument.

You can see him advance such a very silly argument here: http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/05/response-to-who-does-allah-pray-to.html

This is why TF that Muslims are more than ready to debate Lane Craig, Licona and Costa but for White to continue to endorse Sam Shamoun is really just short of embrassing for his own ministries.

"I've heard some folks point out that the Qur'an is written from a third party perspective, not from the perspective of Allah, because it includes prayers."

Here is something interesting one may want to look at: http://muslimology.wordpress.com/2009/12/05/uloomul-quran-quranic-literary-techniques/

"Thus, if someone insists that the author of the Qur'an is Allah, not Muhammad, the question arises how one should interpret the first Surah"

When one studies the ulum al Qur'an (sciences of the Qur'an) of which a small example was provided above things become more clear.

I hope this helps

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord


Ex N1hil0 and Coram Deo
Bingo. I hope you both really ponder on this statement,

"One of the things that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions, is that the God of Christianity--true, biblical Christianity--cannot be bribed."

But than you say in a few post earlier that Jesus gave his life as a 'ransom for many' *note* not all.

Coram Deo If I agree with your proposition that I stand as a sinner, how do I get salvation? How do I know that I am one of those many?

The problem is you may ask me to sentence that contains certain words or to do a ritual act but than when I sit back and watch the theological battles between you as Christians I feel as if I am being taken for a ride.

It seems like I am being asked to give up Islam for Christianity.
However, the problem is not solved it continues on. Someone will demand I profess this or that creed, that I am baptised in the this or that manner.

If I said or did what you ask of me Coram Deo and I join tomorrow the Catholic Church, or I become an Anabaptist is my problem solved?

You said he gave his life 'as a ransom for many'. Who demanded this ransom?
Who was it to that this price was paid?

You said that God doesn't stand for bribes and cheating but with all do respect the more I go into Christology and hear you people out the more it seems we get entangled in complicated doctrine that undo simple submission to One God.

Now if I tell you my sins are forgiven and you ask me how and I tell you because I simply have asked God to forgive my sins than this is where our discussion can get interesting.

Both of us believe we have to have to ask God to forgive us. In your case a God that lives in community Trinitarian, in my case God is unitarian.

Both us believe that we have to recognise something about God. In your case that this God incarnated into a human body died on a cross/tree/stake and than rose from the dead to placate his own desire for blood.

For us as Muslims we recognise that Allah's mercy outweighs his wrath, when Allah decrees mercy upon himself does not mean Allah needs mercy. It means that this is part of the attributes of Allah. That Allah is merciful. So I recognise that Allah is merciful and forgiving.

Surah 12:86 "Oh my servants who have wronged their own souls do not despair of my mercy for no one despairs of my mercy except disbelievers".

Now you can go on and on all you want about God winking at sin in Islam or being capracious and so forth. This only shows me you people have read Christian polemical works against Islam. This is why we are not getting any where.

Just like all the Muslims out there who watched a few Ahmed Deedat debates and think they are in the know about Christianity.

None of this is helpful. I do appreciate your concern and I prayed before and sincerely pray again that if I am in the wrong that God opens my heart and mind to what is truth.

Because who am I against the all powerful and soveirgn creator? What does the creator OWE me? The answer is nothing! I am at the mercy of the Almighty.

natamllc said...

TGV19/writer

"....Natmllc I believe the Qur'an does not say who it was.".

Hmmmmm?

What are you saying by this?

How does a Muslim view the Qur'an/Koran??

Is it a written, infallible instrument whereby a Muslim can come to know certainties about God and historical facts about certain historical men?

Do you know what it does say about Ishmael and Isaac?

Let me pose to you some fact questions and ask you for your impressions?

Do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?

Do you believe Jesus saves His people from their sins?

Do you believe Jesus was born of a Virgin?

Do you believe God's Will in the form of Man was perfectly and sinlessly completed in Christ?

Do you confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead?

Do you believe Mohamed is written about or inferred by name in any of the books of the Bible contributing to the Faith once delivered to the Saints?

natamllc said...

Oh, pardon me TGV19/writer

I passed over the question, sorry?

You asked or simply acknowledged your own ignorance: "....As far as Dr. Caner making an error I would have to know exactly to what point you refer to.".

In TF's "update" above, a link is provided so you can listen to Dr. Falwell introduce Dr. Caner at a "super conference 2005" and in the body of the words of Dr. Caner he describes taking some Seminary students to Israel and they then went praying at the Dome of the Rock and he points to Muslim men standing around them while they were praying and then he speaks to these students an odd language loud enough for the Muslim men to hear him and then he interprets it to "drive" these Muslim men crazy by saying that Abraham sacrificed "Isaac" and not "Ishmael".

If you haven't opened to the link and listened to that talk Dr. Caner gives at that conference and "you speak Arabic", I would be interested in what you would say about the supposed Arabic dialect Dr. Caner speaks in the video clip at that conference??

My wife is from the Philippines and there are about 7000 islands that make up that one country. There are many many dialects these people speak. It is possible Dr. Caner is speaking a strange and rarely spoken dialect of Arabic, if there is such a dialect??? In any event he speaks supposed Arabic. If you speak it, would you listen to it and tell us what you believe he said?

Coram Deo said...

TGV19 said: Both of us believe we have to have to ask God to forgive us. In your case a God that lives in community Trinitarian, in my case God is unitarian.

So have you asked God to forgive your sins?

Did God forgive all your sins past present and future?

Why or why not?

If you died tonight would you go to paradise or would you go to hell?

In Christ,
CD

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord,

natamllc When Caner says 'Latama bouk nootkhoro' it is absolutely gibberish.

If I wanted to be charitable I'll give him the 'La' meaning 'no' or simply 'negation'.

Other than that he just basically made a fool of everyone in that audience.

What am I saying when I say the Qur'an does not say which person was sacrificed...

hmmm...how about simply the truth? The truth is it doesn't say. I am willing to be corrected on that point though.

How does a Muslim view the Qur'an/Koran??

I guess that depends upon the Muslim anything from the absolute word of God, to a talisman that should be hung on one's rearview mirror used for little more than decor.

You asked,


Is it a written, infallible instrument whereby a Muslim can come to know certainties about God and historical facts about certain historical men?

As a Muslim I believe it to be the infallible words of God. I do not believe it's place is to function as a historical record. For me I don't believe it's important to believe the stories in the Qur'an or the Bible even took place. For me I see them as archetypes (espcially Adam and Eve) that have moral stories behind them that are timeless.

Therefore for me as a Muslim I think money can be better spent than digging up in the sands and finding broken pottery etc.

The Qur'an says a great deal about Issac I would encourage you to get a copy and read it or to see it online it has an index in the back. The same with Ishamel.

My answers to your questions I will answer in yes or no.

yes
yes
yes
yes
no
and yes.

Hope this helps.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Coram Deo you asked,

So have you asked God to forgive your sins?

Yes I have and continue to do so.

Did God forgive all your sins past present and future?

God forgave my sins, past, present but future sins I would have to think about that.

Isn't the point of being born of God is that God keeps you from sin?

Why or why not?


Why because this is what is stated in the primary and secondary sources of Islam as elucidated by our scholastic tradition.

If you died tonight would you go to paradise or would you go to hell?

Again that depends on my state when I die. That is why we are encouraged to pray 'Oh Allah cause us to die in a state of Islam'.

People who die from natural disasters, women in child birth, people who are martyrs, die by fire etc will go to heaven.

Most of mankind to my knowledge to go the barzakh (a waiting place) until the blowing of the trumpet than some to ever lasting life and others to purification by fire.


Now please note that when I say these things I speak of Islamic Orthrodoxy (Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah)
The four schools of legal theory
The three schools of doctrine
The schools of tassawuf (heart purification).

I stand apart from anti-hadith, shi'a, neo-salafism , neo-liberalism, qadiani/ahmadiyyah, etc.

natamllc said...

TGV19/writer

Great!

Let's deal with the last two questions.

So that we are on the same page and locate one another, I will republish the questions and answers for clarity:

Do you confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead?

TGV19/writer, your answer to that question was "No", correct?

I am puzzled with your answer because it does not follow that you can answer yes to the previous questions "truthfully" and then come to answer the question next in line "no"?

Are you answering my questions "truthfully"? Yes, I believe you are. But, I qualify that by saying, those truthful answers are fanciful and not logical.

What do I mean by that? I mean to say that the only way anyone of us can answer all the questions yes including the one you answered no too is to answer by revelation and not the will of man. It appears to me that you have answered truthfully, according to the will of man, but not according to the Will of God.


Regarding this question: "Do you believe Mohamed is written about or inferred by name in any of the books of the Bible contributing to the Faith once delivered to the Saints?", I would ask for a broader answer than a simple "yes" if you are willing to go any further?

Can you cite for us where in the Biblical records Mohamed is written about or inferred by name?

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer, I would say 'petard' not having previously heard otherwise nor intending anything in poor taste. I have a hard time hearing your stereotyped, vainly repetitive opening phrase of "With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord..." as anything other than verbal pomposity. This Ergun Caner controversy has brought to light certain Islamic habits in the use of language which are really rationally insupportable, for example insisting Muslims speak to God in what, to most of them, is a recondite foreign language. Does God not know English? Will He not hear prayers which are meaningful to those who speak them, but only those which are not? This demand that non-Arabic speakers speak Arabic is nothing more than a control mechanism, a way for the clergy to monopolize power over against the people. And yet everyone acts as if it were legitimate; from this source comes the equation, 'devout=knows Arabic,' which is deployed against the Caners. There can be no excuse for Ergun's phony jihadi act post-9/11, but this equation expels millions from the Muslim fold! Most of them, in fact. Does Mo Khan's grand-mother know Arabic? Is she 'devout'?

When you offer your formulaic opening phrase, does any inward mental act accompany and inform it? Recall that the Caners complained to the AP that Islam, for them, meant an impersonal, ritualistic, and ultimately empty way of approach to God. This habit of repeating empty, formal phrases, perhaps even phrases in an unknown foreign tongue which are strictly speaking meaningless to the speaker, is something of which Islam must be cleansed. You could reform and start a trend. If you made up your mind to employ good, i.e. economical, language, how much of your religion would that in and of itself eliminate?

Coram Deo said...

TGV19 said: Again that depends on my state when I die. That is why we are encouraged to pray 'Oh Allah cause us to die in a state of Islam'.

People who die from natural disasters, women in child birth, people who are martyrs, die by fire etc will go to heaven.

Most of mankind to my knowledge to go the barzakh (a waiting place) until the blowing of the trumpet than some to ever lasting life and others to purification by fire.


So the eternal trajectory of your soul depends not upon God's mercy and forgiveness of sins, but upon your ability to be righteous?

In other words you must earn mercy? Doesn't that seem a bit strange to you? What sort of mercy is earned? That doesn't sound at all like mercy to me, it sounds like merit, like you're attempting to earn something from God.

But God's Word says no man can earn a right standing before Him because even a man's righteous works are stained with filthy sin:

We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

God says there are none who are good, no not one (Psalm 14; Romans 3:10-12)).

as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:10-12)

Because you are a sinner your works are tainted with sin, and cannot be pleasing to God. God hates iniquity and all those who work iniquity. Because you are a sinner you are a worker of iniquity.

Don't you care about the trajectory of your eternal soul? After death the soul of man is judged and found righteous because of the imputed merit of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who took upon His own body on the tree the sins of all those who trust in Him by faith, or man is found unrighteous because he stands alone before God in his sin.

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

Only Jesus Christ can promise eternal life to the soul that trusts in Him alone for salvation from sin:

And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

To those who stand before God naked in their sin and trespass, without the shed blood of the Lamb of God to wash away their sins, there remains only a fearful expectation of divine judgment and wrath:

Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels". (Matthew 25:41)

There are only two places for the human soul to spend eternity, heaven or hell.

You must be born-again TGV19, repent and place your trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

In Christ,
CD

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote,
"People who die from natural disasters, women in child birth, people who are martyrs, die by fire etc will go to heaven."

What an odd lottery. Why not people who choke on a chicken bone?

Anonymous said...

I love Jesus. He loves women equally and treated them better.

I cannot imagine the bondage of being a Muslim woman. My heart breaks for them.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Fredericka

What an odd lottery. Why not people who choke on a chicken bone?

I guess your question is coming from an absolute perspective? Reminds me of the time a transcendentalist came into our Mosque/Masjid and during the tour he rudely burst out 'There is no Truth'. Than he said 'Nothing is true'.

So I paused... and I said in response, "Is that true"? He than was silent.

You asked, " Does God not know English? Will He not hear prayers which are meaningful to those who speak them, but only those which are not?"

Just questions for sure. Also when a young woman came to our Mosque/Masjid she asked why do we address our salaah (established) prayers to God in Arabic.

I looked at her and said bezeuubelah ghazexreee plhalngooop. Than I said did you understand that? She replied no. I said because it's gibberish. When ever we as human beings speak a language be it to express hate, anger, or love we follow rules of grammar and syntax.

Infact for a deeper understanding and one of the first ground breaking works on the subject of information theory I would recommend Jeremy Campbell's Grammatical Man: Entropy, Language and Life.

We human beings are so arrogant to think that we even know how to pray.

Of course the creator understands all languages and forms of communication we do not understand. Atleast this would be assumed from a position that says that God is all knowing.

Now after I do my five daily prayers I also petition the creator in my own language during our du'a or supplication.

Now I have noticed people speak against Latin as a medium in the Catholic Church, or Arabic as a medium for Muslims, but the same people are absolutely quite about the loss of language and culture through the rise of the English language.

Fredreicka if you were to start dressing in Arab garb tomorrow oh how the people would stare; but when the Arabs start to wear western dress no one says a word.

When you offer your formulaic opening phrase, does any inward mental act accompany and inform it?

Absoultely and when a person studies languages rather we think about what we say or not there is always a mental act that accompanies it. People who work in neuro science are making interesting discoveries along these lines.

continued below...

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, continued from above...

Does Mo Khan's grand-mother know Arabic? Is she 'devout'?

I am not sure about that. However, I know one thing that would help to sway some support in Caner's favour and that would be to simply ask Mo Khan to recite the opening chapter of the Qura'n and post it on youtube.

I am sure he would decline the request. He comes from a Indo-Pakistani background. Now don't get me wrong as many of them speak better Arabic than the Arabs. Just as I am always correted for using double negatives in a sentence by my Bengali friends. Thanks to English imperial schools.

However, he would decline because he would not want to be subjected to the same scrutiny that Caner is when it comes to pronunciation.

Again don't get me wrong. Caner is a fraud through and through. Yet, I think that there are some points that we transgressed in regards to an 'honest' investigation of him and his claims.

Infact if you read my very first post above along with TF publishing James response to it you can see why James would get soo hyped up over it.

James claims the man who made the mistake was he was doing so from MEMORY. Well if James is charitable he could allow for the fact that Ergun Caner a boy who comes from a mixed background of Christian mother and Muslim father who left the faith during his teens most likely would confuse much of his Arabic language.

Do I think Caner made huge embellishments and flat out lied on occasion? Yes! However, if we are to have a fair court hearing and if he is to be tried in Islamic law you try and find as many excuses as you can for the person before judgement is passed.

Unfortunately today in most Muslim countries if not all they have forsaken traditional Islamic practice. Usually the jurist would try and establish if someone was mentally sound. If they are not mentally sound the Hudud (crimes of punishments) would not apply to them.


Mokhan has not answered any of my questions on my blog site especially since he claims to represent Orthrodox Islam. A claim that I challenge him on. Namely to prove that Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah is based soley upon the Qur'an and the Sunnah alone.

A claim he and his cohorts have backed away from.

Allah knows best.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Coram Deo again I thank you for your energetic exchanges.

Much of what you quoted to me does not seem like it is meant to castigate the whole of humanity. Infact it only seems to be hyperbole that describes a certain group of people or events at a particular given point in history.

I'll give you some of my reasons why.

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

But Lazarus was raised from the dead. What happened to him?

What happened to Elijah and Elisha? I understand that they were translated or taken into the 1st heaven but I do not have positive proof that they were dead. Unless I take the book of Hebrews (a book that James White says we have no idea whom wrote) as authoratative over the Tanach.

And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

Did Jesus go to paradise that particular day? How do we know?


as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:10-12)

Luke 1:5-7 begs to differ
"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

So we have a number of things in the world of hermenuetics when we come to such passages.

1) We establish contradiction and adjust our inerrancy position.

2) We interpret the passage of Luke in light of Romans.

3)Or we interpret Romans in light of Luke.

If I am a Christian I will let my theology dicatate the interpretation so that Luke is interpreted in light of Romans.

However, if I am a Muslim I would allow for Romans to be interpreted in light of Luke especially since Romans is a quote from another text that is obviously lamenting the state of the people.

I do not know where people get the idea that Muslims can buy their way into heaven or that Islam is a works based salvation.

Obviously this is what people would like other's to believe but it simply is not true.

Anyone can see this is plain from reading the following text of the Qur'an.

Holy Qur’an Chapter 2:64
“But you turned back thereafter: had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah to you, you surely been among the lost.”


Holy Qur’an chapter 57 verse 29
“That the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) may know that they control naught of the grace of Allah, and that grace is in Allah’s hand. He gives it to whom He pleases, And Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.”

Now I have noted that the majority of my questions put to some of you have gone unanswered.

May Allah open the hearts and minds of people to accept the truth. Amin!

Anonymous said...

grandverbalizer,

Again, I ask, what sane woman would choose the bondage of Islam over freedom in Jesus Christ. Our Lord, who had quite a theological conversation with a Samaritan (half breed by cultural standards) woman? Who cleansed Mary M of her demons and set her free?

But most of your women do not choose. They are born into this yoke of slavery and ignorance. Jesus Christ sets them free. Unveiled faces shining toward HIS GLORY.

Anonymous said...

"I do not know where people get the idea that Muslims can buy their way into heaven or that Islam is a works based salvation."

Actually from the Historical record of Mohammad. He used parts of Judaism, Christianity and pagan religion to make up his own religion. He was illiterate. He advocated violence when folks were not converting. He "married" a 6 year old and rapped her at age 9. And much more....

This is a guy I should want to follow or learn from? NOT!

Just give me MORE of Jesus Christ who sets the captives free!

Come home, verbalizer!

natamllc said...

TGV19

what question have you posed to me that I have not addressed?

I am still waiting a reply from my last post to you?

Did you overlook that one?

Coram Deo said...

TGV19,

I've told you the truth and pointed you to Christ, but you can't receive it.

I do pray that the Lord might be gracious to you and open your eyes to the glorious gospel of grace.

You seek to manufacture reasons to reject God's Holy Word, and the reason is because you love darkness, and your sin.

In your quiet moments, when you are all alone, I know that you know in your heart of hearts that you have an angry, wrathful God above you, a guilty accusing conscience within you, and a yawning hell beneath you.

Islam holds no hope for you or anyone else TVG19. There is no power to save in Islam, because there is no remission of sin.

This where the pure faith of Christianity differs fundamentally from the false and idolatrous religions of men; in Christianity the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible says:

"LIVE AND DO THIS!"

He calls us from spiritual death unto spiritual life by the power of His Holy Spirit through the proclamation of the eternal gospel of grace.

In all other religions, which are false, the gods of men say:

"DO THIS AND LIVE!"

It's grace vs. works.

It's God's accomplishment in Christ vs. man's accomplishment in works.

It's the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, who came to seek and save the lost vs. men who seek to earn merit from their god by their own efforts.

You say Islam is not a works-righteousness religion, but this is simply not true. Islam is extremely works oriented, as evidenced by the belief that hell will be occupied by even those who recite the Shahada.

Anonymous has questioned the role of women in Islam. In Christianity women and men are equals before God, with differing roles for the husband and wife in marriage, and differing roles in the church.

In Islam hell is mostly populated by unbelievers (in Islam) and by Muslim women, isn't correct?

How can believers in Islam finally escape hell at some point and enter paradise? Isn't reciting the Shahada a means of escaping hell?

Is reciting the Shahada a work of men, or is it a work of Allah?

You must be born-again, TVG19. Repent and place your trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

In Christ,
CD

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Well, Coram Deo and Anonymous I guess we have nothing more to say to each other.

I believe in back and forth exchange that is what I love about the blogsphere. I do not really respond to emotionaly charged rhetoric.

However, I do hope there are agnostics, truth seekers, or people re-examining long held cherished notions and beliefs who follow these exchanges and see the truth.

Coram Deo it sounds like you have an amazing gift! You write,

"In your quiet moments, when you are all alone, I know that you know in your heart of hearts that you have an angry, wrathful God above you, a guilty accusing conscience within you, and a yawning hell beneath you."

Wow! If I had a gift like that I would follow the stock market closely and determine what stock would rise on the index and than I would cash in! I would than take all that money I made and build charitable institutions and help the poor and hungry.

Please do not squandor your gift by spying on people when they are alone. Use it instead to navigate the stock market.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

natamllc said...

I am still waiting a reply from my last post to you?

Did you overlook that one?

My apologies I did overlook it. However I am concerned about something.

When you say,

"Are you answering my questions "truthfully"? Yes, I believe you are. But, I qualify that by saying, those truthful answers are fanciful and not logical."

If you questions my sincerity in answreing your questions than what further use is an exchange between us?

Wouldn't you just be spinning you wheels? Now I can't even answer you with truth because it's a fantasy. I am in a no win situation.

If you are looking to win an argument or discussion natamllc than let me save you the time and energy.

I here by delcare NATAMLLC the winner and champion of any discussion held between the two of us.

I mean how do you want me to answer you? You say with the truth. Than when I give you the truth from my perspective than you say it's fanciful. One really can't communicate a position if this is the way the dialectic will be done.

Can you cite for us where in the Biblical records Mohamed is written about or inferred by name?

In order for you to better appreciate the Muslim position by asking the above question have you ever pondered the following.

He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." (Luke 24:44)

Do you believe that Jesus was written about or inferred by name in the Torah? The Prophets (minor/major) and the Psalms?

This would probably help you to appreciate (even if you do not agree with) the Muslim perspective.

Turretinfan said...

"Do you believe that Jesus was written about or inferred by name in the Torah? The Prophets (minor/major) and the Psalms?"

Yes, of course. One example:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

As the Gospel of Matthew explains:

Matthew 1:21-25
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

- TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

TGV19:

You wrote to CD: "Please do not squandor your gift by spying on people when they are alone. Use it instead to navigate the stock market."

We cannot, of course, force you to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. However, please do not use this comment box to mock and scoff.

-TurretinFan

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Turretinfan I apologise to you or to anyone who feels that I am mocking and scoffing.

I also have to admonish myself in light of what the Qur'an says,

16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones

I did go too far, please understand my frustration with people who feel they can pierce metal and wood and make such comments towards me. I don't think we are being productive looking and the pros and cons of arguments or questions advanced to either party.

I feel some time we get entrapped in emotionaly charged rhetoric. Something I feel we are all guilty of from time to time.

TF you have been most charitable to me and I respectfully heed your admonishment.

hutchman said...

TGV19,

Al Salam Alekium.

"Do you believe that Jesus was written about or inferred by name in the Torah? The Prophets (minor/major) and the Psalms?"

Just another example of Jesus in the OT.

In Zechariah 12:1-10 YHWH is speaking but pay attention to verse 10:

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn"

The Hebrew word used in these verses, yachiyd, means unique only son ... Jesus.

In the NT, this verse speaks of the fulfillment of the OT prophesy above:

John 19:34-37 (ESV)

34 "But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35 He who saw it has borne witness— his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth— that you also may believe. 36 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken." 37 And again another Scripture says,"They will look on him whom they have pierced." "

"Can you cite for us where in the Biblical records Mohamed is written about or inferred by name?"

Because of Surah 7.157, you believe that the Bible foretells of your profit Mohammad ... the Bible does not. The verses in the Tawrat and Injil foretell of Jesus. Ahmed Deedat tried to make these verses fit Mohammed but it just doesn't hold up.

You are tripping over The Stone! YHWH means "Stone". Jesus is HYWH!

Isaiah 8:13-14 (ESV):
13 "But the LORD of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

1 Peter 2:7-8 (ESV):
7 "So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,

8 and

"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."

I pray that Lord God Almighty would remove your heard of stone and give you a heart of flesh so that you would have eyes to see the Truth in God's Word. One without "eyes to see" cannot see the things being opened to you by my brothers in this blog. Step 1 is you must deal with the Cross.

Ma salama

Brian

Fredericka said...

The Grand Verbalizer wrote,
"Now I have noticed people speak against Latin as a medium in the Catholic Church, or Arabic as a medium for Muslims, but the same people are absolutely quite about the loss of language and culture through the rise of the English language."

Grand Verbalizer, the best thing that ever happened to German was Martin Luther's translating the Bible into that barbarous tongue. Wouldn't your concern for the welfare of these orphaned tongues be best served by translating the Arabic Qur'an and daily prayers into them? This would benefit both the speakers and these at-risk languages themselves. The speakers would benefit by, at long last, understanding what they are saying to God. You and I would not sign a contract if we were not sure what it said, why should we petition God with only a vague, second-hand notion of what we are saying? Plus, the languages would be given a new lease on life. How many languages did Arabic eradicate, when the Muslims conquered ancient civilizations and replaced the native languages with their own? It is the Christian Copts who have kept Coptic alive, not the Muslims, who confuse Arab imperialism with salvation.

Latin was long in use as a "medium" for communication with God, not so much owing to the unique suitability of this one amongst the tongues of men and angels to the task, but only to erect a fence around the clerical establishment. Some people knew Latin, most did not. It was a blow struck for human freedom when the Bible was translated into the vernacular. Opening this book tore that fence down. God did not erect the fence, man did. It seems to me that Arabic functions much the same way as Latin once did, as can be seen in the present controversy. Some want to play 'keep-away' with a book which ought to be open to scrutiny, both from believers and out-siders. Perhaps they are afraid some things cannot stand up to scrutiny.

You have been fair-minded in approaching to the Caner scandal. I agree with you that EC is a liar and a fraud, but also a man with considerable charisma. The Turks, alone among the Muslims, as far as I know, have had the sense to translate the Koran into the vernacular, so Acar may well have read the book only in that language. EC's ineptitude in Arabic does not carry the consequences people think it does. Of course he should not be throwing gibberish out in people's faces either.

It is good to know that your rote recitation is accompanied by a mental act, but so was the Wizard of Oz's for all anyone knows. I suspect it is not the same kind of mental act as occurs when a speaker spills out his heart in spontaneous sayings, and I think Jesus wanted to discourage the one and encourage the other when he instructed the people in Matthew 6:7.

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote,
"I looked at her and said bezeuubelah ghazexreee plhalngooop. Than I said did you understand that? She replied no. I said because it's gibberish. When ever we as human beings speak a language be it to express hate, anger, or love we follow rules of grammar and syntax."

But even a coherent, structured human language might as well be gibberish to one who knows it not. Though EC was speaking gibberish, the people who heard him thought he was speaking Arabic; how would they know? Paul said, "Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me." (1 Corinthians 14:11). How can the hearers say 'Amen' when the meaning passed them right by?: "Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?" (1 Corinthians 14:16). The way to ensure the hearer will understand is to speak the hearer's own language. Our own language is as transparent as air, we recognize the meaning immediately, not as one painstakingly trying to remember the nuns' instructions. The Qur'an advertises itself as perspicuous because offered in a language the people understand, not in some unknown foreign tongue. But if by chance they don't know Arabic, shouldn't it be translated to conserve that characteristic?

natamllc said...

TGV19

you wrote in response to my response to you:

"...If you questions my sincerity in answreing your questions than what further use is an exchange between us?".

First, let me apologize to you if using the word "fanciful" was offensive?

I make a little distinction between the two words, though a little one, it was not intended on questioning either your sincerity or integrity.

My intent with using the word fanciful goes along this line or reasoning:

The basis of your reasoning, in my view, is not "based" in the reasoning of the "teachings" of either the Old or the New Testaments of the Protestant Bible.

You further wrote:

"...Wouldn't you just be spinning you wheels? Now I can't even answer you with truth because it's a fantasy. I am in a no win situation.".

No, I don't think I would be spinning my wheels. No, you can and as far as I can tell, have answered truthfully and sincerely, albeit, answered fancifully not logically.

Neither you or I are in a "win" situation. It has been appointed for man once to die and then the judgment. The Gospel message is a "no win" situation for us. The only solution to our personal pollution is not dilution, but absolution. Absolution is not an "unrestrained" imagination but a God reasoned experience. No one gets out of here alive. We are all called upon to pick up our personal cross and die to our self life.

This is the only reasoned argument of the Good News we can accept once we have been enlightened to the fact that we indeed are dead in trespasses and sins when it comes to a relationship with God.

What can a dead person do to establish a "living" relationship with either God or man?

My answer is: "nothing", we are dead.

You also wrote:

"...If you are looking to win an argument or discussion natamllc than let me save you the time and energy.

I here by delcare NATAMLLC the winner and champion of any discussion held between the two of us.".

Hmmmm, not sure what to take from that? If anyone is going to be winning here, let it be the Lord. I would be happy to rejoice with the angels!

You also asked:

"...I mean how do you want me to answer you?".

By the power and work of the Holy Spirit. Once we have received or rather been established in the Truth/Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit then begins producing His fruit through our lives. We are built upon the foundation, which is Christ. We then go onto maturity where we become His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, for good works which God prepared for us to walk in.

The Faith once delivered to the Saints is not a synergistic faith whereby we do something here. Our Faith is monergistic and everything that is acceptable to God is by God for mankind, not mankind doing something for God. God doesn't need our help. Rather, we need His!

Finally:

"...
Do you believe that Jesus was written about or inferred by name in the Torah? The Prophets (minor/major) and the Psalms?".

Yes.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

I just want to thank everyone and including TF to allow the discussion between us to take place. I also want to apologise in advance for any offense taken.

O You who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor, for God can best protect both. Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve, and if you distort justice or decline to do justice, verily God is well acquainted with all that you do. ( Holy Qur'an chapter 4:135)

I do appreciate the feed back from those who saw Jesus in the Tanach from Luke 24:46.

Even though we do not see his name there we do believe that he was alluded to.

Now again I am not here to debate and argue but to try and recieve understanding.

Both of the references in Zechariah 12:1-10 and Isaiah 7:14 as I am sure some of you are aware of have counter proposals but our Jewish brothers and sisters.

I am not here to say who is right or wrong your respective hermenuetic I am just saying I recognise why you say it would refer to Christ Jesus and why the Jews would say it does not.

So now you may understand why we would believe that Deuteronomy 18:18 would be alluding to the last Prophet Muhammed (saw).

We could also understand that the Jews at the time of Jesus were awaiting three distinct people.

We may also look at John 14:15-16

Hebrew transliteration of Shir Hashirim (Song of Songs) 5:16
"Chikko mamtaqeem, v'chulo MACHAMADIM, zedowdee v'zere'ee Benot Yarushalaim." You can hear the pronounciation of this here:

http://www.zalag.net/OTstudies/Hebrew%20audio/03%20writings/cant05.mp3
John 1:19-21, 25

Please do understand I am aware that Christians believe the respective passages above refer to something else 'namely Jesus himself or the Holy Spirit'. I am also aware of the claim that if you use the word MaCHMaD /aHMaD what about it's use in other passages.

*Note* the New Testament itself does not say that another prophet cannot come.

We are all familiar with 'it is finished' but Please do note the following passages.

Matthew 24:24 If there are false prophets it is also possible there are true prophets.

1 John 4:1

If there were no more prophets coming you would think the text could be a little more definitive than they are.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Fredricka there are allot of things we could surmise about. For example I may well ask why did Allah decide to give revelation in Aramaic, Ancient Hebrew, and Arabic? Why not Korean, Finnish and Tagalog?


Why did Allah send prophets when there were no television crews, or video camcorders available?

I am coming from the presuppostion that Allah is the all-knowing creator. I am also coming from the presuppostion that some languages have more power and depth at conveyance and to allow interpretative principles to be used over other languages.

I think your questions are well warranted. Did you know for example there is still much scholarly debate over the term 'Selah' in the Psalms and what actually does it mean and can it be translated.

I have often thought it odd that when Jesus is reported to have said on the cross 'Eloi Eloi lama sabacthani' that it was being interpreted. I mean why not just simply translate the statement outright? Why give the language spoken and than translate it?

This has always been a curiosity for me.


You make valid points but please note that emotionally charged rhetoric such as,

"It is the Christian Copts who have kept Coptic alive, not the Muslims, who confuse Arab imperialism with salvation."

Does very little for discussion.

I would also like to submit that though you may think the Bible in every person's hand is a good thing and to a degree maybe the reformation was. However, I can't but help to think of the plethora of competing Protestant denominations that wage spiritual warfare across America's many small cities.

Some times these things can be a sort of pandoras box.

I also believe that people can be reached by God who are not literate (our Prophet(saw)/ was one such example.

What about people who are blind? How do they read? What about people who are deaf? Let us also keep in mind that for centuries the masses were not as they are today. For centuries the masses were illiterate and could not read and write. Though oral communication flourished.

continued...

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God,

continued from above. When you bring Matthew 6:7 it does little to help the discussion unless a context is given for it.

For example http://bible.cc/matthew/6-7.htm

We see it can be understand that a person should not say meaningless things. I don't see where Islam would not agree with this.

It can also be understood that simply by repeating something over and over it will not save you. Islam also would agree with this.

Or the admonishing could be understood that it's perfectly fine to use 'rote' prayers as long as it's not vain but done with reverance. This is exactly what our Imams and Sheikhs teach us about the prayers.

"Pray without ceasing."—1 Thessalonians 5:17. This could be quoted as something meaningless unless a context was given.

Infact after we do any of our five daily prayers we do what is called du'a (supplication) and this can be done in any language of course.


I think the point is missed behind the five congregational prayers because many people are awe struck (I know this becuase I volunteer in a Mosque/Masjid) but the simple simplicity of rows upon rows of human beings praying before the creator.

Infact just as we have been given Al fatiha (1st chapter of the Qur'an) Jesus never encouraged anyone to just 'say what you want' because again it comes from the arrognace of pride. Assuming that we even know how to pray or what to pray for.

That is why Jesus taught the Lords prayer. He didn't put a limit to how often it could be said or where.

The other interesting thing is that Jesus prays like we as Muslims pray!

Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

I honestly do not like this translation it's horrible and in a way mocks Jesus as if or anyone didn't see an object on the ground and simply "FELL ON HIS FACE".

I prefer to translate it (though I am no position to do so) as He went a little further and prostrated with his face to the ground. I think this makes more sense of what is being conveyed.

I would recommend Christians to pray to God like this. Even if you don't believe in Allah or want to be a Muslim. The next time you are alone in your room or where ever put your face down to the ground and imagine yourself in the presence of the almighty!

Humble yourself and recognise that you are a nothing compared to the greatness and soverign might of All Mighty God! If you do and by the way it's only Christ like to do it than please let me know what you felt....

:)

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Natamllc you said,

"The Faith once delivered to the Saints is not a synergistic faith whereby we do something here. Our Faith is monergistic and everything that is acceptable to God is by God for mankind, not mankind doing something for God. God doesn't need our help. Rather, we need His!"


Muslims do not believe that anything in the universe can happen accept by the Qada and the Qadr of Allah.

Could I ask you on what basis does God send his Holy Spirit to regenerate people? How does God arrive at the selection process?

Is the selection random? If nothing is merited from the individual?

Now if someone who you believe does not have the Holy Spirit says something is true lets say for example like 2+2=4 does this come from the Holy Spirit, from themselves or from God?

Also if someone does an act that is evil can a person do an evil act indepdent of the power and might of Allah? Do they need God's power and might to be able to do the evil they intend?

natamllc said...

TGV19

"...to the last Prophet Muhammed (saw).".

1 John 4:1-3


1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Also,


Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And that is basis this:


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.
Act 2:15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Act 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

Peter was referring to Joel's prophesy as he says. The Holy Spirit, Who it is Who moved upon these men to write these records for those upon whom the end of the ages has settled is very unified in reasoning and logic here. Doesn't the Sacred Scriptures debunk your religion's claim that Mohamed is the "last" prophet of God to speak seeing God is not nor ever will be prohibited from speaking through any one of His people alive today at any time? What He won't be speaking through us is something contrary to what He has already spoken. The testimony of Jesus "is" the spirit of prophesy.

It is because of this that there are so many alive today who cannot accept the "spirit" of Islam as a spiritual voice about the "Testimony of Christ" seeing Islam does not leave you at the doorway to Heaven to enter through it to fellowship with Our Heavenly Father.

To each, you and me, Islam and Christianity, have limitations as to becoming followers of God by our faiths.

Paul wrote succinctly about a Christian's limitations by Him through His "Faith", this way:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

natamllc said...

TGV19

You asked:

"...Could I ask you on what basis does God send his Holy Spirit to regenerate people? How does God arrive at the selection process?".

God, the Bible teaches, is an Architect. His creation, this present heavens and earth is built basis an "already" existing set of plans. I would take the imagery further and say, Jesus is the Engineer and the Holy Spirit is the contractor who actually built the architecture.

And of course, after completion, an enemy of God and man's came and messed with it and still comes and messes with it. That was planned for in advance as well.

"...Is the selection random?".

No.

If nothing is merited from the individual?".

Could you rephrase that question?


"...Now if someone who you believe does not have the Holy Spirit says something is true lets say for example like 2+2=4 does this come from the Holy Spirit, from themselves or from God?".

This sort of "mathematical" truth, 2+2=4 is created science. If you are so disposed, go to 2 Peter, Chapter 1 and with a Greek concordance look at the several words for the word "knowledge". You will see a distinction is made between knowledge that is natural law and knowledge, the "Knowledge of the Holy", a "knowledge" that is by revelation of the Spirit of God. We begin as natural beings first. Then we are "born again". Some of us go onto, by God's predetermined selection, spiritual maturity in and through Christ and the Holy Spirit. That is God's doing, not mine or yours.

Truth is spoken all the time. It is "who" is behind the speaking of the truth that can come into question. Common logic and reason also can discern whether or not what is being heard is "truth rightly spoken".

"...Also if someone does an act that is evil can a person do an evil act indepdent of the power and might of Allah? Do they need God's power and might to be able to do the evil they intend?".

God is the Creator. It is by His Will and Power that I exist first, then to do anything whether good or evil afterwards. Evil forces may persuade me to do evil. I will be held accountable for everything I do.

Whatever I do has consequences. Doing nothing is doing something and there are consequences for doing that. Whatever I sow, I reap and that is the law of creation. If I sow to my flesh I will reap corruption. If I sow to the Spirit by the Spirit, I will reap the Fruit of the Spirit in Grace and Truth!

God, on the other hand can do whatever He pleases. Everything God does is "sinless". Every good thing I do, no matter how righteous, is sinful unless it is God doing it through me to establish His Eternal purposes.

I have my own hall of shame. It is full of records of things I have done that I should not have done or things I should have done that I did not do! :)

1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

natamllc you said,

"Doesn't the Sacred Scriptures debunk your religion's claim that Mohamed is the "last" prophet of God to speak seeing God is not nor ever will be prohibited from speaking through any one of His people alive today at any time?"

Absolutely does not. If there is a day of judgement than there is an understanding there will be a last prophet. Even if you do not believe that prophet to be Muhammed (saw) surely there will be a day of judgement and thus logically one can see that what ever prophet is there could be the 'last' prophet.


I also think it's important to distinguish between inspiration and revelation. Because surely you wouldn't suggest that everything you felt to be inspired by God or God breathed should become sacred writ do you?

The Monatanist believed this you can see here: http://stgeorgeupland.tripod.com/abram/his_montanism.htm

"...Is the selection random?".

No.

You answer No and that is fine but I am still curious on what BASIS is the selection made? Who will get eternal salvation and who will get eternal damnation?

"And of course, after completion, an enemy of God and man's came and messed with it and still comes and messes with it. That was planned for in advance as well."

So the God who hates sin cannot look upon sin and will throw sinners into eternal damnation made as part of his plan an enemy that would come along and bring about everything that God 'doesn't want'?

I think we are starting to zero in on one of problems right here when you state,

"We begin as natural beings first. Then we are "born again"."

You see I think this is part of the problem in the discussion between us as Muslims and you as Christians.

We do not have a gnostic concept that one need to deny the flesh and it's totally corrupt. Nor do we have a hedonistic concept that one should indulge the flesh and be a slave to the animal aspect.

There is no human being on this planet that does not have a soul is there? If I have my soul or spirit taken from me am I still a man?

Genesis 2:7 Now I know some people will say but wait we are refered to as man even before the spirit is breathed into us.

Yes but does God hold accountable limestone, granite, saphire, diamonds, quartz and so forth? I think not.

continued...

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, continued from above.

That is why I think that Christianity has a manichean view of God and humanity.

Humanity has this sort of dissociative identity disorder.

You see when you say, "We begin as natural beings first. Then we are "born again"

Now again we maybe just arguing semantics but I think it God breathed HIS spirit into us. We are animated by that breath of life.

Just as birds and turtles and snakes are alive but are Christians now arguing that they have a soul or a spirit?

So as a Muslim I believe in the spiritual truths of those who came before us. However, I think that some of those truths were either lost only to be revived by others, or it's also possible that it's right infront of our eyes but it's our hermenuetic and our own interpretations that are faulty.

Let me ask you Natamllc if I may.You obviously believe that God is the forgiver of sins correct?

So let me ask you this and to all Christians here? Was God always the forgiver of sins? Did God ADD this quality or attribute to himself or was it always existent as part of the nature of God?

hutchman said...

TGV19,

Al Salam Aleikum,

"Could I ask you on what basis does God send his Holy Spirit to regenerate people? How does God arrive at the selection process?

Is the selection random? If nothing is merited from the individual?"

It is unmerited. It is for his good pleasure. See the Golden Chain of Redemption Romans 8:29-30.

See all of Romans 9. There are many, many places that reflect that Salvation is of the Lord and not of man.

From my experience in talking with my Muslim brothers from Iraq, Iran etc., I'm guessing that you wrestle with Original Sin, the Federal headship of Adam, the Trinity, the old covenant and new covenant, why Christ had to die on the cross. And further, you want to see a "big man" that can argue these points with power and conviction.

I do not have the skills to debate you on every issue of the Bible & Qur'an. I have no power beyond He that is in me so all I can do is point you to God's Word which has power and will not return void and hope that it changes your heart.

I often hear of Muslims that point to preachers as being weak etc. To that I say it isn't the man, it is the Message! Do a study on Johnathan Edwards. He read his sermons softly and hardly looked up but he spoke the Truth of Gods Word and look at the result (look up for an example Johnathan Edwards Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and The Great Awakening).

To be continued ...

hutchman said...

Continued ....

Now for a humorous side bar analogy ... the Gospel and Open Source Software.

I am an Embedded Software Engineer. I started using the Unix Operating System back in the late 80's as Microsoft was getting their start. I was fluent in both. Microsoft bought companies and made deals to gain a foothold into the market and then employed various tactics (legal and otherwise) to enlarge or maintain its market share.

Linux came along and revived the spirit of sharing that BSD and SVR4 had before the days AT&T decided to make Unix closed and make money off it. The Unix world was pretty much repressed as long as AT&T was trying to profit off it. Once the Linux the kernel teamed up with other GNU Software in 1991, the jeanie was out of the bottle so to speak ... AT&T could no longer control the spread of Linux.

And today there have been legal claims and challenges against Open Source software and Linux but because of its open nature and contribution from people all over the world, claims against it have not stood up.

Now, in a nutshell, this is the same that has happened with the Bible & Islam. If you study your church history you will find that the Bible was first. Muhammad had access to the Torah but didn't have access to all of the New Testament writings ...

Imams make great claims that Bible is polluted and Qur'an is pure because it can only exist in Arabic and has not changed. History shows Islam to be on the Microsoft side of this battle while the Bible is on the Open Source side. You see the Qur'an was policed at a centralized point in time and all copies that differed were burned while the Bible was more open and was copied many many times. Sure there were mistakes in the copies and texts but there were so many copies of the original manuscripts that the "gist" of what the original writers said can be ascertained. No so with the Qur'an.

History also shows that Muslim's used to bow to Jerhuselem, not Meca before this period of policing the Qur'an.

Habibi, history is not on your side. You are a smart guy but again, you can't figure this all out on your own.

Luke 10:21 (ESV) "In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will."

I pray you will read the plan of salvation in the Bible (Google "Romans Road") and that the scales will fall off your eyes and you too will see the Marvelous Salvation the Lord has provided.

Ma Salama,

Brian

natamllc said...

TGV19

"...If there is a day of judgement than there is an understanding there will be a last prophet. Even if you do not believe that prophet to be Muhammed (saw) surely there will be a day of judgement and thus logically one can see that what ever prophet is there could be the 'last' prophet.".

TGV19, it isn't that "if" there is a day of Judgment, rather, because the day of Judgment is already at hand, it is "when" that day comes:::>

1Ch 16:31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice, and let them say among the nations, "The LORD reigns!"
1Ch 16:32 Let the sea roar, and all that fills it; let the field exult, and everything in it!
1Ch 16:33 Then shall the trees of the forest sing for joy before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth.

and

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

and Jesus, when commissioning His first Apostles taught a strange thing and some have found both it and Him to be contradictory because of it:

Mat 10:1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.

Later on, reading through this commissioning chapter, Matthew 10, we find these words too:

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour.
Mat 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

and then farther down, these words:

Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.
Mat 10:26 "So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

and then:

Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

So, there is a "first" Prophet, Jesus, who created man.

There then will be a "last" Prophet, Jesus, who will come again, not to judge, but to save those from the judgment who are eagerly waiting for Him! These are those, who unlike all the rest, have not gone on before them into their "Eternal Reward" already. And as you say, some have gone to eternal damnation where the Devil and his angels will go, while others to the Kingdom prepared for them from before the foundation of the world!

natamllc said...

TGV19,

you asked:

"... Because surely you wouldn't suggest that everything you felt to be inspired by God or God breathed should become sacred writ do you?..".

No, nor do I suggest that. Why do you ask that?

TGV19,

you asked:

"...You answer No and that is fine but I am still curious on what BASIS is the selection made? Who will get eternal salvation and who will get eternal damnation?...".

The creation is a "preplanned" sequence of events that establish that God is and the devil will not have his way but His!

We are the product of a prior sequence of events in Eternity. Events unfolded that we can glimpse into through the writings of the Prophets of the Old Testament and the writings of the Apostles in the New Testament. The way creation has gone forth from the days of Adam and Eve is so that the Righteous shall "live" by the Faith once delivered to the Saints separating them like a Shepherd separates His sheep from His goats. The Sheep "hear" the voice of the Shepherd. The Sheep, because of that, also can discern other voices being listened too. It is the Voice of the Spirit Who leads us and not our own ideas, thoughts and reasonings.

natamllc said...

TGV19

you asked:

"...So the God who hates sin cannot look upon sin and will throw sinners into eternal damnation made as part of his plan an enemy that would come along and bring about everything that God 'doesn't want'?...".

I am thinking it would be better if you word smithed that question. I like the direction it is going, especially the second part.

natamllc said...

TGV19,

"...We do not have a gnostic concept that one need to deny the flesh and it's totally corrupt. Nor do we have a hedonistic concept that one should indulge the flesh and be a slave to the animal aspect.".

Hmmmm, well, that's an interesting way of thinking. Are you admitting now then that you do not have a concept or know the difference between good and evil with regard to your hedonistic tendencies all the while subjecting your flesh to cruel and unusual sufferings as a form of self punishments or attainments to a perfect relationship with God as a religious form of penitence?

TGV19,

you asked:

"...There is no human being on this planet that does not have a soul is there?..".

Correct.

"...If I have my soul or spirit taken from me am I still a man?..".

Yes, a lifeless dead human clump of red earth.

Can God raise the dead? Yes.

TGV19,

you say:

"...Genesis 2:7 Now I know some people will say but wait we are refered to as man even before the spirit is breathed into us.

Yes but does God hold accountable limestone, granite, saphire, diamonds, quartz and so forth? I think not.".

I am not sure what the connection is you are making here between God forming from the dust of the earth a flesh container then breathing into it the breath of life, i.e. Adam, and holding him accountable with other matter, limestone, granite, sapphires, diamonds, quartz and so forth?

Having worked in the gem world of diamonds, emeralds, sapphires, rubies and so forth, I know I can hold those gem qualities accountable to the price I am being asked to pay to purchase them from the respective miners or dealers selling them rough or polished.

Each certain stone has a property all its own, hardness on the Mo scale, color or clarity depending on what it is, a diamond, a ruby, a sapphire, an emerald or so forth.

God judges all humanity. He has declared us all unrighteous no matter how righteous or morally sound we are!

natamllc said...

TGV19,

You make reference to the Manichean era. Manichaeism taught, well, my knowledge of this is so plain, I wouldn't stand a chance with one so learned as you. There are better historical minds in here who can light a candle probably brighter than your, so I will pass on that part of this debate.

With what I do know, very little, I have to agree with Scripture and say Manichaeism is a doctrine of some demon/s and I am not interested in making comparisons with it, Christianity and Islam.

The conflicts between light and darkness, good and evil, God and devils has been a hot topic since the spilling of the blood of Able by his corrupted brother, Cain.

Let's just say, death is an enemy and unnatural and we now all have to experience it, except if we are as fortunate as Enoch, which I doubt, since he was a one of a kind personality anyway. We have Christ to believe in; who conquered the flesh, the world, the devils and Death himself! He is, after all, the Resurrection and the Life Who I have been conjoined to so that when I die, I will not die alone, for which I am confident!

TGV19,

"...Now again we maybe just arguing semantics but I think it God breathed HIS spirit into us. We are animated by that breath of life.".

Yes, agreed. We are sinful breathers of this breath of life now that Adam partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Are you going to argue you are sinless? What's the point of that citation? I do not expect you to understand what Nicodemus was told or Peter taught about "we must be born again". No one "born again" needs much help knowing what that means except from time to time we forget it and need only to be refreshed and reminded what that means?

TGV19,

you ask:

"...Just as birds and turtles and snakes are alive but are Christians now arguing that they have a soul or a spirit?..".

Hmmmmm, I don't know much of what other Christians argue about birds and turtles and snakes. I know that I have killed some and eaten plenty of some birds and I think I had turtle before and some snake. I hope they were "killed" and then prepared properly by the cook or purchased at a good store before cooking. I wouldn't take to kindly to find out I ate some road kill or something that died of disease or old age first! grrrrrr!! :)

natamllc said...

TGV19,

you state:

"...So as a Muslim I believe in the spiritual truths of those who came before us. However, I think that some of those truths were either lost only to be revived by others, or it's also possible that it's right infront of our eyes but it's our hermenuetic and our own interpretations that are faulty.".

Well, as a California Indian, who from an early age was opened up to the "spiritual" world of my natural ethnic heritage and also the RCC faith and then stupidly, as a young know it all rebellious kid at 16, going off and studying many philosophies and religions before I was born again at 21, I can say my whole interpretation of God and life was faulty until God began to shelter me by the Wings of His Gospel, now my Gospel! In a lot of ways it still is. I am amazed at just how much I really know, especially when I come to this blog almost daily now for a few years and learn as much as I have. It seems the more I learn in here the less I really know! Hmmmmm? I am learning more and more but the more I learn the less and less I really know!

I have a confidence now of the Peace of God because the God of Peace has revealed Himself to me and caused me to believe just what Jesus taught and prayed as recorded in the four Gospels.


Joh 17:6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

Not only those Words of Jesus, but now I realize these Words of Paul, too, because the Spirit has made the Gospel come alive in me and it is still alive in me to this day:

Col 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Col 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints,
Col 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel,
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing--as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,
Col 1:7 just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf
Col 1:8 and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

While I, at first, was hearing the Words of the Gospel and Truth, all alone, the Spirit guided me to a Church body, the one and only Church body I have been apart of since July of 1975, so that now I am in fellowship and meaningful communion with a group of men and women for over 35 years and counting, who know me and mostly know more about me and my shortcomings than I do. I believe this is the way the Holy Spirit wants it to be. He wants us to be born into a family. He then wants us to be born again into a "Spiritual" Family. It is from this Biblical framework and Spiritual frame of mind that we are to go forth as God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for "good works", the "Spirit's Works, not ours, through our lives. We are to have the same experience as these members of the early Church had, the same thing as we read about here:

continued

natamllc said...

Act 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Act 13:49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region.

Finally TGV19,

you ask these questions:

"...So let me ask you this and to all Christians here?

"...Was God always the forgiver of sins?

"...Did God ADD this quality or attribute to himself or was it always existent as part of the nature of God?..".


Hmmmmm, well, God is. He is Immutable. He is sinless. He is Holy. He is Love. Love covers a multitude of sins.

God is who God is when God needs to be something particular to one of His creatures. This whole creation is upheld by the Word of His Power.

Anything created was created by the Word of His Power.

Have I erred and sinned? Yes.

Do I need to be forgiven constantly? Yes.

Is everyone created saved? No.

Do I know why or understand why? No.

Does God desire all men to be saved? Ah, maybe, I don't know?

Does He want His people, all of them to be saved? Yes.

Who are His people? Those who confess the Lord Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead. These people shall be saved. Salvation is a Work of God's Grace and Mercy upon those He is gracious and merciful to. It is a work of God; not of man.

Coram Deo said...

TVG19,

I wasn't offended by your sharply worded reply, in fact I was encouraged because I take it to be a sign that your conscience was pricked by the truth that you reacted to so strongly.

It makes me hopeful that you are sensible to your own wretched sinfulness and guilt before God.

You see TVG19, I do have a "special gift", but this gift isn't unique to me, nor does it have anything whatsoever to do with me. This "special gift" is the gift of God's Holy Spirit granted to those who are called forth from spiritual death and darkness into the glorious light of Christ by grace alone, through faith alone:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9)

So you see, I have nothing to boast about, because my "special gift" was graciously given to me by the One True and Living God. It was unmerited, undeserved, and unearned.

That's why it's called grace.

That's why it's merciful.

But the reason I know what darkness resides in your heart is because I once walked your path, although not as a Muslim.

I walked in the futility of my own mind, privately worshipping myself and harboring secret and horrible sins in my heart while appearing outwardly clean, moral, and upstanding.

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Ephesians 2:3)

The human heart is a worshipping heart, because God created man to be a worshipper. Unfortunately ever since our first parents plunged into sin and rebellion in the garden, man's heart has been devastatingly twisted and corrupted so that he always and everywhere reject the One True and Living God and manufactures idols from his own wicked heart.

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-6)

Continued...

Coram Deo said...

Continued...

You sin because you are a sinner, you aren't a sinner because you sin. It is your nature to sin because you are a fallen creature in desperate need of restoration to the One True and Living God Who created you.

Your religion, Islam, like all other man made religions is a religion of works righteousness: touch not, taste not, drink not, eat not, do this, don't do that, say this thing, don't say that thing, pray this way, don't pray that way, go to this place, don't go that place, etc., etc., etc.

The worst possible thing that can happen to a fallen human creature is for his sin nature to "get false religion". When a corrupted sinner's twisted sould "gets false religion" then he becomes insufferably self-righteous and incredibly difficult to reach with the truth, because he thinks he holds to the truth.

This is what Jesus said about the matter:

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32)

He knew that those who are sick need a physician, but those who think themselves well, even though they are desperately sick and dying, will not seek the Great Physician because they believe themselves to be well.

This is what false religion does to the sinner. It hardens him against the truth. His pride and stubborness will not allow him to bend the knee in humility and submit to the fact that he needs a Savior.

Sadly false religion is also a safe harbor for sin. Sinful men love to keep religious rules and regulations because it makes them feel as though they are doing a service for God, when in fact they are abominations before Him.

Sinful men who keep their religious rules pray certain ways at certain times, and in certain places, they are very studious to maintain ceremonial washings and rituals, they love all the rules because they can keep their man made rules.

But this is a deadly and sickening breeding ground for sinfulness. Sin finds a place to hide in the self-righteous bosom because there is no power in all those ceremonies and rituals to deal with the sins of the heart.

The external and formal observance of religious ritual and ceremony has no power to save.

The external and formal observance of religious rituals and ceremony multiply sins.

The external and formal observance of religious rituals and ceremony serve only to harden the heart in its sinfulness.

You know these things to be true if you are a teacher of men. You must know these things to be true of yourself if you are honest, because as I said earlier, in your heart of hearts you know I am speaking the truth to you.

You must be born-again, TGV19, and the only power in the universe that can change your heart of stone into a heart of flesh, and grant you new life is the Lord Jesus Christ.

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

You must repent of your sinfulness and cast yourself at the feet of Jesus Christ, begging Him to forgive you for your offenses, and pleading with Him to cover your sins with His perfect sinless blood.

One day you will die and go to hell forever if you don't turn from your sins. Why will you condemn yourself, TGV19?

Repent now and call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

In Christ,
CD

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord,

Coram Deo...

"This "special gift" is the gift of God's Holy Spirit granted to those who are called forth from spiritual death and darkness into the glorious light of Christ by grace alone, through faith alone:"

So it is a gift shared by Methodist, Presbyterians, Reformed Baptist, Oneness Pentacostals, Trinitarian Pentacostals, RCC, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Lutherans, Church of Christ, Congregationalist Christians is this correct?

You say,

"Your religion, Islam, like all other man made religions is a religion of works righteousness: touch not, taste not, drink not, eat not, do this, don't do that, say this thing, don't say that thing, pray this way, don't pray that way, go to this place, don't go that place, etc., etc., etc."

So Christianity does not give one a moral compass? Am I to understand this from what you are saying? I would be interested for you to show me from the Qur'an or statements of prophet Muhammed (saw) that we as Muslims get into heaven by our deeds and not by the grace of Allah.

"and incredibly difficult to reach with the truth" < This statement is false and this is one reason I do not buy into this type of Christological interpretation of God and man's relationship. There is so much in Christianity that enthrones man and dethrones the creator.

There is no obstacle that stands in the way of God and what he chooses to do with his creation. I am sorry you have such a low opinion of your creator, fashioner and sustainer.

You said,

"The external and formal observance of religious ritual and ceremony has no power to save." Mash'Allah spoken like a true Muslim Imam. This is exactly what our faith teaches us.

You state,
"Why will you condemn yourself, TGV19?"

Coram Deo before I answer this is your theological opinion Arminian or Calvinist? This would probably better shape the discussion between us both.

You also quoted,

"For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)"

Just a slight correction to your Christological interpretation of this if I may?

Matthew 7:21. Not everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

I invite you to do the WILL OF GOD even if it something you may find distasteful CoramDeo. This is not about you or about me. It is about doing the will of God.

There is much more than quoting simply Romans 10:13 you and I both know that. I have given quite the list of Christian denominations above and I am sure each of them would say 'Amen' to what you quoted. So obviously it is not enough.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord,

Natamllc,

I appreciate your humility and honesty. May Allah always enrich you with insight and help you to be a source of inspiration to others.

Thank you for your words and for your textual references.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord,

Hutchman...

I said,

Is the selection random? If nothing is merited from the individual?

You responded by saying,

"It is unmerited. It is for his good pleasure. See the Golden Chain of Redemption Romans 8:29-30."

So if it is for the good pleasure (not even sure what that means) of God that he selects some to be saved.

Than when he selects some to be damned forever where their skins are exchanged for fresh skins and they drink boiling hot water for all eternity is this also for God's "good pleasure"?

On what consistent basis do we say it is or is not?

I am also curious if you have read the Christian Arminian response to the Christian Calvinsit Golden Chain of Redemption?

http://classicalarminianism.blogspot.com/2009/05/golden-chain-of-redemption-exegeting_15.html ?


You said,
And further, you want to see a "big man" that can argue these points with power and conviction.

I do not have the skills to debate you on every issue of the Bible & Qur'an.

Actually I do not want any of what you said. I know that Ahmed Deedat (may Allah have mercy on him) did not have a firm grasp on Christian theology from any perspective. I am also not interested in debating.

I like exchanges. If I people are cordial and sincere with me I do my best to be coridal and sincere as well. I am not the encyclopedia brittanica either. I do what I can by the God given knowledge to try and advance the discussion.

One of our scholars was asked 71 questions he responded to 14 and to the rest he said, "I don't know".

You mentioned Jonathan Edwards I hold him in high esteem. Not that he would care. I feel he carries himself well and I do see him as a sincere Christian who is not 'full of himself'

I will say though that if I were a Christian I do not like your analogy of the Bible and Qur'an with Linux and Microsoft.

Linux you can package as you want, and take the parts you like, retool and retweak accoridng to your own preference. You can even tweak the kernel.

Are you suggesting that we can take the parts of the Bible that we want and leave the rest? Or maybe we can use hermenuetic that we find favourable to interpret the Bible in a way that suits us and our needs much like Linux?

Or do we say that that Bible is like Microsoft not open to being changed beyond recognition?

I am not sure that is the analogy you want to use.

continued...

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God continued...

Hutchman you said,

"If you study your church history you will find that the Bible was first. Muhammad had access to the Torah but didn't have access to all of the New Testament writings."

If Muhammed (saw) didn't have access to all the New Testament writings could you please tell us what documents he did have access to and how you know this?


"Sure there were MISTAKES in the copies and texts but there were so many copies of the ORIGINAL manuscripts that the "GIST" of what the original writers said can be Ascertained."

Now *note* something when a Muslim gives their version of history and what happens it is disputed. However we are charitable and accept your version of events.

Yet, we need to look at what you said. That there were MISTAKES. Why didn't God protect the manuscripts from these mistakes?

Actually why didn't God just protect the ORIGINALS? We are after all talking about the creator of the entire universe. This would not be a difficult task.

Lastly, I respect what you say but please do understand if I do not want my eternal salvation to rest upon the "GIST" of what was said.

Again I am trying to think of a way to convey my reservation without being crude. I pray that TF and yourself would not find me insulting.

Now, if someone was to pour water into a vessel and tell me this is 95% water and than add 5% urine and ask me to drink I would respectfully and forcefully decline.

Please understand I am not trying to be mean spirited here. I have looked at this issue and I am still willing to read more about it.

But I don't understand how people who believe that Matthew 2:23 contains a prophecy he shall be called the Nazarene can letter assure me that this is from some oral tradition or it was revealed by inspiration that a previous prophet spoke it can also be the same people who turn around and tell me.

1) God did not preserve the originals.
2) God did not inspire perfect copies.

These things really give me pause.

Infact Brian you may wish to have a look at the following debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2BNwZk6Wi4

I pray the scales are removed from your eyes and my own if I am indeed blinded. We are both powerless before the Almighty.

I pray that Allah guides everyone to that which he loves.

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote,
"You make valid points but please note that emotionally charged rhetoric such as,

"It is the Christian Copts who have kept Coptic alive, not the Muslims, who confuse Arab imperialism with salvation."

Does very little for discussion."

Hi Grand Verbalizer, I did not mean to give offense, nor even to be original. It's a common-place observation as offered for example by V. S. Naipaul:

"It turns out now that the Arabs were the most successful imperialists of all time, since to be conquered by them (and then to be like them) is still, in the minds of the faithful, to be saved." (V. S. Naipaul, Among the Believers, p. 142).

You were complaining about English taking over the world, but long before English was in any position to take over anything, Arabic did take over a considerable chunk of the world. People whose ancestors spoke Punic or Coptic forgot those languages, so completely that eventually they would call themselves 'Arabs' and define their politics in terms of 'Arab nationalism.' They forgot what their fathers were. I wondered if, fair-minded as you are, you object only to English obliterating little languages, or do you also look back with sorrow and shame at what Arabic obliterated? Some people can see, with sharp-eyed clarity, what was wrong with 19th century European imperialism, and I agree with them 100%, but their vision becomes blurry when they look back at Arab imperialism. Surely if it's a loss today when Coca-Cola culture overspreads the third world, it was also a loss when the conquering Arab armies imposed cultural conformity on a very wide swath of the globe.

P.S. I'll have to get back to the rest later! (though I suppose it is no disgrace to be out-talked by someone named 'Grand Verbalizer.')

natamllc said...

TGV19,

that's it in your exchanges with me?

Well, may I take the lead here, then and go a bit farther?

You ended your responses to Brian by saying:

"...I pray the scales are removed from your eyes and my own if I am indeed blinded. We are both powerless before the Almighty.

I pray that Allah guides everyone to that which he loves.".

I agree that "I" was blinded and in part, still am. I only know in part.

Why is that then?

It is because of the "nature" of this creation God the Almighty has created.

God has so created the present heavens and earth that the "human" creature, us, if we want to be "godly" persons in a "Godly" relationship with God, must "live by His faith" not ours.


Living by the Faith once delivered to the Saints makes me neither a moral or immoral person. Living by Faith doesn't change my "nature" in this life. I am who I am just as God knows me fully. I can know God only in part. God knows me fully.

Living by the Faith once delivered to the Saints is required in order to live productive, healthy, Joy filled lives. Living by this kind of Faith does not guarantee that I will live a productive, healthy, Joy filled life in this life. Every man's lot is his own. Only God and I know the depth of my own being as I know it. He knows so much more about my being than I do! I live by His Faith!!

There will be high times and low times simply because of my "human" nature, which is indeed corrupt no matter how honest or loving or faithful or truthful I live in this world. I cannot escape reaping what I sow. There is no respect of persons with God. God is Just. He justifies the sinners He justifies, not the sinners who they justify.

TGV19, you seemed to have "opened" a door into your heart for us to look inside to see something about you with those closing words I cited above that you ended with when responding to Brian?

Let me ask you, have you ever "trusted" in the "Name of the Lord" and by the "Name of the Lord" I mean to imply the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?

In your words cited above, you open the door to the possibility of being blinded to Truth yourself in some sense and degree, yes?

You also open up a sense that you want to be guided to "Whomever" God "loves", yes?

You also admit in essence you are a powerless creature before the Almighty God, the God of Abraham?

Just that one thought alone reminded me of these Words:

Psa 89:11 The heavens are yours; the earth also is yours; the world and all that is in it, you have founded them.

and

Psa 135:5 For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.



I would go further with this after reading your gracious responses to my inquiries.

hutchman said...

TGV19,

Analogy was a quick thought (probably a poor one) that I didn't have time to fully develop. My intent was to contrast how the original manuscripts of the Bible could not be repressed just as the spread of Linux couldn't. Nothing more.

"So if it is for the good pleasure (not even sure what that means) of God that he selects some to be saved."

We as finite creatures do not know the basis of how God chooses. Why did the choose Israel to reveal himself?

Romans 9 is a good starting point.

I guess "mistakes" was also a poor choice of words. Most fell in the category of "copy errors" and are not "doctrinal" in nature that would change our understanding of that which has been revealed (who God is, man fall and sinful (dead) state, why we need a Savior, attributes of God etc.).

You mentioned denominations ... the ones that are considered "Christian" ... Assembly of God, Church of God, Baptist, Presbyterian etc., etc. (not Mormons, Jehovah witnesses etc.) usually agree on the core Gospel Message and matters of Salvation. Where they differ are on matters that do not pertain to Salvation.

You have the same kind of problem .. Sunni, Shia etc.

Brian

natamllc said...

Fredericka,

you nailed the issue on the bullseye and hopefully it can crush the "head"?

What you just responded to TGV19 reminded me of another grand event that occurred that I was witness too in Ghana, W. Africa some years ago.

A businessman x minister of that country lived in an exclusive neighborhood of Accra, the capital city of Ghana. I was doing a fair amount of business and ministry through his 'home' office. The very next door neighbor had a child care for their clients. You would hear these children during certain times during the day playing in the play yard. The children were mostly Ghanaian and some were from other African countries or from British folks and some were American children there too. The proprietor had taken some "Disney" characters and hired an artist to paint these characters on the walls of the play yard to spruce it up a bit.

One day a man from the United States came to see my friend and noticed those characters colorfully painted large and boldly on the walls.

He asked about them and "if" those characters were painted illegally or legally on the wall according to the Disney policies that only permitted the use of Disney's characters to be used this way or any other way with their written consent? I thought to myself after hearing that question, hmmmmmm, Disney can stop people like those people from doing that?

Several months had gone by and I found myself back in Ghana at my friend's place in Accra. And I immediately looked over the wall from his place to the play yard of the neighborhood childcare and all the characters had been painted over!

I asked why?

The answer: a Disney representative came there and inquired as to why these people did that without expressed written permission from the Disney group? They threatened to sue them in the courts of Ghana if they did not comply with Disney's policies and "pay" the fee to use the Disney characters that way. Of course they were not willing to pay the fees because frankly they couldn't afford too so they had to paint over the characters so as not to be dragged into court!

That spirit is the issue, isn't it?

It comes in many ways with many faces and beliefs!

However Jesus did instruct Peter to go fishing and:::>

Mat 17:24 When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the tax?"
Mat 17:25 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?"
Mat 17:26 And when he said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.
Mat 17:27 However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself."

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Fredricka you say,

""It turns out now that the Arabs were the most successful imperialists of all time, since to be conquered by them (and then to be like them) is still, in the minds of the faithful, to be saved." (V. S. Naipaul, Among the Believers, p. 142)."

Please *note* that V.S Naipaul is not a Muslim so we are not getting a Muslim perspective.

Any how the argument made above is the same argument that could be made about the English, French, Dutch etc who brought Christianity. Since to be conquered by them is to be saved by them in the MINDS of the faithful; not necessarily in the minds of those who did not embrace Christianity or Islam.

There are those who felt that in spite of English, Dutch slave trade it brought 'civlization' and Christianity to pagans. After all if it was the will of God who are we to argue?


You said,

"People whose ancestors spoke Punic or Coptic forgot those languages, so completely that eventually they would call themselves 'Arabs' and define their politics in terms of 'Arab nationalism."

A very good point. Can't find much to argue with there.

You said,

"They forgot what their fathers were. I wondered if, fair-minded as you are, you object only to English obliterating LITTLE languages, or do you also look back with sorrow and shame at what Arabic obliterated?"


Well Fredricka I am not here to QUANTIFY people's culture and identify. I think it's a very shrewd thing to do. I also find it inconsistent. If we are going to bemoan the loss of language and culture let us do it on a consistent basis.

The United States for example is 3537441 square miles or 5692959.448 km.

Do you know how many native American languages were competely 'wiped' out? I also don't think I have the nerve to look a proud Apache man or woman in the eyes and call their language 'LITTLE'.

You are free to do as you wish.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Hutchman you said,

"I guess "mistakes" was also a poor choice of words. MOST fell in the category of "copy errors" and are not "doctrinal" in nature that would change our understanding of that which has been revealed (who God is, man fall and sinful (dead) state, why we need a Savior, attributes of God etc.)"

If MOST fell into the category of copy errors and are not doctrinal in nature. Than how many would you say are doctrinal in nature?

Who would you ascribe these doctrinal differences to? Why would someone want to do that?

What happened? Why would there be theological motivations for changing the text given that conservative Christians like to date New Testament manuscripts at such early dates?

You mentioned also about Sunni, Shia.

One thing that has amazed sociologist as well as historians and people who study religion is that usually religion starts off as very cohesive and than splintters into a myriad different factions fighting for dominance over time.


The Amazing thing about Sunni (Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah) is that 90% of the Muslims have been united for 90% of our history.

Four schools of legal theory (Shafi, Hanafi, Maliki, Humbali)
Three schools of doctrine (maturdi, ashari and tahawi)
Three schools of spiritual cleansing of the heart ( path of fear, path of love, path that combines the two) manifested in spiritual paths.

This is the main body the body the Prophet (saw) would be the group upon safety.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

I still want to add I am very dissapointed in James White. A man who claims to be fair and honest.

The fact that he has not pulled the youtube video of his teacher making a huge blunder on the recitation of the Qur'an.

The fact that he has NOT ATLEAST edited that video and pointed out that the teacher made an error.

This is definitely not edification at work. This is not a man after consistent standards.

This is clearly a man red faced over the event who thinks that making a quick post that few will notice is going to change things.

James White I admonish you in the name of the God you claim to serve to KEEP THE ORIGINAL VIDEO but to EDIT or POINT OUT or DO SOMETHING that would show the people who are viewing this video the MISTAKE the teacher makes.

I am hoping that James White does this otherwise I will continue to think he is a person filled with bluster.

Turretinfan said...

He has acknowledged the error, TGV19. I suspect he feels that's enough.

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote, "I mean why not just simply translate the statement outright? Why give the language spoken and than translate it?"

Hi Grand Verbalizer. "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34). This is one of a very few instances where the gospels record Jesus' sayings in the Aramaic He actually spoke rather than in Greek translation. Early witnesses mention an original Gospel of
Matthew in Aramaic or Hebrew; regardless, the other New Testament writings were conceived in Greek from their inception. Other instances include Mark 5:41, "Talitha cumi (little girl arise)," and Mark 7:34, "Ephphatha (be opened)." These instances are the exception which proves the rule. The Holy Spirit has no aversion to translation; Jesus' words are generally given in
Greek with no record provided of the Aramaic ipsissima verba.

To toss in my two cents, I would speculate the actual words are here given for their evidentiary value. Psalm 22 contains remarkable prophecies of the crucifixion, such as, "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." (Psalm 22:16-18). That the Messiah's hands and feet would be "pierced" did happen; that they would cast lots for His clothing also did happen. That He could count his ribs I imagine happened as a result of dehydration on the cross. When you see marathon
runners struggling along after the TV camera trucks have departed and the 'elite' runners are long gone, their skin has sometimes a taut and sunken cast owing to dehydration.

The Messiah carried our sin for us, in fact, He was made sin for us: "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21). He must have felt a veil of shadow fall over
His communion with the Father and the Holy Spirit, because "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity..."
(Habakkuk 1:13). That contamination which made it impossible for us to stand before God's holy face was all on Him.

I wonder what the witnesses beneath the cross thought when they heard Jesus utter these words. They must have realized it was Psalm 22. In the midst of that horror, helplessly watching death by torture, did they understand this prophetic psalm is playing out, in real time, as they watch? Even the hostile by-standers, the scoffers, must have complained, 'That impostor stayed in character throughout.' The Messiah was expected to say this, at least by those who counted Psalm 22 a Messianic psalm. The rule is exemplified in Acts 2:29-30: if a psalm is not fulfilled in David or Solomon, because the events in their fullest sense never happened to David or Solomon, then it is not about David or Solomon. It must be about the Messiah. Certainly David was never crucified, yet Psalm 22 describes a crucifixion. No doubt anyone can say "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me;" merely saying that does not make one the Messiah, and yet the Messiah did say that, just as it was prophesied He would. Perhaps the evangelists transcribed the original words to satisfy the Berean purists, who wanted to know exactly what He said, to determine whether it lined up precisely with what was prophesied or was a hair's breadth off. Giving the Greek alone is imprecise, because there may be more than one way to translate a phrase into another language. (continued...)

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer, your wordiness is contagious, you have given it to everyone: (continued from last post)

The Greek does not precisely match up between the NT and the Septuagint; oddly enough Matthew 27:46 has "thee mou," the LXX "o theos mou," though usually it's the NT which has nominative for vocative if memory serves. If the evangelists offered only the Greek, the Bereans might say, 'Well, that gives the gist of it, but how do we know the Messiah said exactly what the Messiah was supposed to say? Surely He didn't say it in Greek.'

From what I can gather, what Jesus said is Aramaic not the original Hebrew of Psalm 22, but the New Testament authors seem to identify the two languages (see Acts 21:40), which are related in any case.

So perhaps the cry of dereliction is in there, in the original, just as Jesus cried it, for its value as evidence that Jesus is the Messiah. He said what the Messiah was to say, He did what the Messiah was to do, He was crucified as the Messiah was to be crucified, He rose from the dead as the Messiah was to rise, therefore He is the Messiah.

As to whether translating the Qur'an into the vernacular would open a Pandora's box, I suspect it might. As to whether the unlettered prophet was altogether unlettered, didn't he ask for paper and pen to be brought him on his death-bed? They wouldn't give it to him, if I recall correctly. What were they afraid of, if he was illiterate? That he would doodle? Perhaps he had some limited skills.

LITTLE languages are languages spoken, not by LITTLE people or people of no account, but by FEW speakers. This explains their poor showing in the imperialist sweep-stakes. If you 'get there firstest with the mostest,' you get to impose your LITTLE language on all those BIG AND IMPORTANT people who did not 'get there firstest with the mostest.' FEW means NUMERICALLY CHALLENGED.

More later, God willing and if the crick don't rise.

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote,
"I would recommend Christians to pray to God like this. Even if you don't believe in Allah or want to be a Muslim."

Why not, the four-and-twenty elders do: "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Revelation 4:10-11). Notice by the way before Whom they fall down, the "four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb" (Revelation 5:8). This would be something for Muslims to emulate!

More l8r.

hutchman said...

TGV19,

"If MOST fell into the category of copy errors and are not doctrinal in nature. Than how many would you say are doctrinal in nature?"

In fact, none that I know were of a doctrinal nature. I spoke in general terms from memory.

Speaking of memory, I'm sure I don't have to tell you what Qur'an means. You appear to take issue with how the Bible was cannonized. Lets take a moment and review how the Qur'an came to be ... none of it was written initially because the Qur'an means for those that don't know to "recite" so it was all done from memory.

We all know how accurate that can be by whispering something to a person in a crowded room and having them whisper it to the next person and so on ... by the time it gets around the room the saying wasn't anything like what it started. But I digress.

... nothing was written down until after Mohammad's death and it was largely a political action that lead to it being written down. Salim, who was killed in battle, knew most of the Qur'an. This event was one that lead to the first copy of the Qur'an put together under Abu Bakr known as the Hafsah codex.

The criteria for what should be written was two men had to agree.

Now later we see that differing texts of the Qur'an started to appear and Uthman had to put a stop to it. He asked Hafsah, one of Mohammad's wives, to lend him some of the most important manuscripts (written shortly after his death). The Qur'an was re-written and all other copies burned.

How do I know this? Much has been written about it but it can be found in your very own Hadith! Scroll down to number 510 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html

Mas’ud, a personal servant of Mohammad, refused to burn his copy claiming he heard it straight from Mohammad ... which is why we have the Kufan codex.

In fact, it is believed that there were no less that 4 version of the Qur'an that existed before Uthman burn order.

"Who would you ascribe these doctrinal differences to? Why would someone want to do that?

What happened? Why would there be theological motivations for changing the text given that conservative Christians like to date New Testament manuscripts at such early dates?"

History is 20/20. We have enough manuscripts to look back and see patterns. The guy you are mad at, "James White" in his "King James Only Controversy" book does a good job of showing these patterns. They didn't have printers ... a poor scribe in harsh conditions and bad light had to copy the text by hand which took forever and was expensive. Lots of verses started off the same way or contained similar phrases and so it was easy for a scribe to write parts by memory instead of copying word for word from the source text.

So the water that you are drinking is probably more than 95% impure.

If I was an outside impartial party examining the process by which the Bible and Qur'an was put together ... I'd say the Bible had a more pure past again because there were so many copies that any attempt to censor it would (and has) failed. The same cannot be said for the Qur'an once one studies the history of it.

Brian

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote,
"The other interesting thing is that Jesus prays like we as Muslims pray!"

There are many references to prostration in the Old Testament also. Some of these 'falling down' references might relate to something more like being 'slain in the spirit,' and people can 'fall down' onto their knees, like the old song says: 'Four-and-twenty elders on their knees, Lord have mercy if you please.' The four-and-twenty elders, however, do fall on their faces in worship: "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God..." (Revelation 11:16). Likewise some of the Old Testament references certainly do refer to prostration, like the following:

Abraham prostrated himself before the Lord: "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant..." (Genesis 18:1-3).
Notice that Abraham, a very wise man and undoubted monotheist, sees three but addresses one Lord. It is good to follow his eminent
example.

In the patriarchal age, men prostrated themselves not only to God but also to rulers. But during the Lord's earthly ministry, this
was not very common. Later the Byzantine emperors would demand the full frontal face-plant from those ushered into their august presence, so I've read, but that offensive practice had not yet started; in this period, even the Roman emperor did not expect prostration. Nevertheless, the disciples prostrated themselves before the Lord: "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." (Matthew 28:9); "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." (Matthew 28:17).
This Greek word, 'proskuneo,' did not originally mean 'bow down,' but after it was used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew 'shachah,' as it is for instance
in the passage just mentioned, Genesis 18:2, it does come to have that implication. It originally meant something like 'blowing a kiss,' a gesture of adoration
which the pagans made to their idols, so the Seventy evidently felt it would serve for 'bow down,' a change of posture that implies worship. As you point out, making this change of posture shows that you are humbling yourself before Almighty God.

A variety of postures and attitudes of prayer are mentioned in the New Testament. I doubt that prostration before God was all that common, but let us concede for the sake of the argument that the disciples were in the habit of prostrating themselves before Almighty God. We have just seen them doing it, in Matthew 28:9 and 28:17. They'd done it before: "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." (Matthew 14:3). So do wise men: "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11). People in trouble bow down before the Lord: "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean." (Matthew 8:2). "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live." (Matthew 9:18). Like the leper we are unclean, like the little girl we are dead in sin, so why not prostrate ourselves before the Lord, Almighty God, and ask Him to heal us?

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote, "There are those who felt that in spite of English, Dutch slave trade it brought 'civlization' and Christianity to pagans. After all if it was the will of God who are we to argue?"

Isn't it dreadful that people would say such things! Wasn't the Zulu king who fought the British a Christian? You know what's always bugged me, though: when Mohammed ibn Abdallah was offered Mary the Christian slave-girl from Egypt as a gift, why did he not decline? Why didn't he say, 'How revolting! You think you can offer another human being as a gift, to be used for such a purpose, as if she were a thing and not a person? I am scandalized! Has anyone asked this young lady's consent?' But he didn't say that. She was a remarkable woman. The best Muslim historians say that she never converted to Islam, though she must have felt pressure to do so. Saudi Arabia did not get around to abolishing slavery until the 1960's, if memory serves, because Mohammed ibn Abdallah was a slave-owner, and the Quran recommends all the faithful to follow his example.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.


Fredricka

You said concerning the last Messenger to mankind (saw),

"As to whether the unlettered prophet was altogether unlettered, didn't he ask for paper and pen to be brought him on his death-bed? They wouldn't give it to him, if I recall correctly. What were they afraid of, if he was illiterate?"

Do you have the Islamic source or reference in mind that we could look at? This would be quite helpful if you did.

You also said mentioning our noble father Abraham (as)

"Notice that Abraham, a very wise man and undoubted monotheist, sees three but addresses one Lord. It is good to follow his eminent
example."

I am sure he would know even as Mark 13:32 let's us know there is clear distinction between God who knows all things and his 'son' and the angels who do not.

You also said,

" Notice by the way before Whom they fall down, the "four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb" (Revelation 5:8). This would be something for Muslims to emulate!"

No problem for me. I would love to have the honor to fall down before Christ Jesus. However all my prayers are going to be to the one who has never 'fell down' before or 'worshipped' any. For this ONE is the absolute source of worship.


"This Greek word, 'proskuneo,' did not originally mean 'bow down,' but after it was used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew 'shachah,' as it is for instance
in the passage just mentioned, Genesis 18:2, it does come to have that implication. It originally meant something like 'blowing a kiss,' a gesture of adoration"

That is correct according to Strong's concordance.

This was also interesting that Daniel like Jesus too was 'worshipped'

Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him. (Daniel 2:46)

*Note* Daniel didn't tell him to stop. This was a perfectly acceptable practice. Though the term worship has been deceitfully used where it serves theological purposes.

continued...

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God,

continued from above...

To Fredricka...

you said,

"You know what's always bugged me, though: when Mohammed ibn Abdallah was offered Mary the Christian slave-girl from Egypt as a gift, why did he not decline? Why didn't he say, 'How revolting!"

Well again I would have to see the historical context of the times in which Muhammed (saw) live. But as a person looking for CONSISTENT standards I would be very careful about what you say considering...

Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Your thinking should be CONSISTENT otherwise you may find yourself being revolted by what God decreed in the Bible. We could find you supporting Richard Dawkins before too long if your not careful.

You said,

" Saudi Arabia did not get around to abolishing slavery until the 1960's" This is quite late considering my own country the United States didn't do it until a very blood civil war in the 1860s. So Saudi Arabia is about 120 years late huh?

You know the strange thing Fredricka? There were many God fearing Christians who fought on the side of the south who felt Biblically justified for what they did.

Yup! You can read all about it here:
http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2010/05/thoughtful-christians-endorse-slavery.html

Fredricka if it is possible maybe you could also help to define the word slave for us as well and what their living conditions usually entailed in their respective socities circa Muhammed (saw).

That would also be helpful in our discussion. Thank you and you have been most excellent.

natamllc said...

Brian,

eves dropping in on your response to TGV19, as an aside, I hasten to point out what isn't far from yours or my memory about the "writing" of the Scriptures as you have laid it out to him.

It stands to reason, just as the Scripture teaches us this about the Scriptures:

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

and

2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Certainly the Holy Spirit was present with each writer retained for that purpose, who was transcribing or translating the Scriptures to become reproduction or translation of God's Word.

After all, the Holy Spirit is God and He is Eternal and He is Immutable and He communicates to all who call upon the name of the Lord!

It is His work to sanctify us. How much more is it His work to have overseen and to oversee any and all reproduction and translation of the Holy Scriptures which He will use in His work of sanctification, even still?

Peter wrote as well about Him and His work here:


1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.


Not only are Jesus and His Word "one"; equally, the Holy Spirit and His Word are "one" too!

Fredericka said...

Grand Verbalizer wrote,
"Do you have the Islamic source or reference in mind that we could look at? This would be quite helpful if you did."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/003.sbt.html#001.003.114

Concerning Daniel 2:46, I agree that Nebuchadnezzar fell down on his face before Daniel, but this practice was not acceptable to everyone; see Acts 10:25-26: "And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man."

Thank you for providing a link to your blog article on the Bible and slavery which I have opened in another window. You might enjoy reading my web-page on the same topic:

http://thriceholy.net/bible.html

The Northern abolitionists were inspired by the Bible, one of whose central narratives is the liberation from slavery of the Israelites in Egypt. I would define 'slavery' as that which is prohibited by the thirteenth amendment to the U. S. Constitution, especially 'involuntary servitude.' In the law of Moses, Israelite-on-Israelite involuntary servitude was term-limited to six years. It was permissible to enslave foreigners, as you point out, but those foreigners were also able to become Israelites, upon conversion taking on the rights of Israelites. Atheists take a tendentious, one-sided view of the Mosaic law's provisions on slavery, overlooking all that is intended to limit and ameliorate and high-lighting every permissive loop-hole.