Saturday, May 15, 2010

Who is Dr. Ergun Caner?

So, what is the real story with Dr. Ergun Caner? He has claimed that "We wore keffiyeh; we wore robes" (discussed here) before his conversion. He has claimed this in connection with illustrating how devoted a Muslim he was "as devout as it gets." But the real Ergun Caner is harder to document.

With the assistance of a friend (whose identity will be concealed for now, for his own protection - some of Caner's supporters have been quite unkind), I was able to get access to Dr. Caner's high school yearbooks (don't worry - not his personal copy) from Dr. Caner's high school in Gahanna, OH (named for America's 16th president).

Based on the activities list provided by Dr. Caner's senior yearbook, we find an interesting picture of Dr. Caner's high school years (the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 correspond respectively to the year of high school, with 4 being final year):

A'Cappella 2,3,4
Children's Theatre 4
Chorale 4
Cast member in:
  • "The Homecoming"
  • "Father of the Bride" (one other activity supporting this play)
French Club 1,2,3
Freshman Choir
Intramurals 1,2,3
Soccer 1,2
Tennis 1,2
Thespians 4
Varsity Varieties
  • Cast Member 2,3,4
  • Varsity Varieties (Usher) 2
  • Varsity Varieties (Stage Crew) 1
As far as I can determine, there was no involvement in any Christian group (Fellowship of Christian Athletes existed and Jerry Tackett who apparently led Dr. Caner to Christ was connected with that group). There was, of course, no Islamic group in the high school at that time. An important caveat is that yearbook summaries are sometimes only as good as the yearbook editors. So, we have no absolute guarantee that Dr. Caner didn't join in other groups or fail to join in some of the groups listed above.

The picture that Caner's high school activities provide for us is a picture of a young man who is very interested in acting. He also does singing, and some sports in his first two years.

What about his appearance? We have some evidence of that. We can see Dr. Caner's yearbook photos from 1981-84, which appear to show a normal, western attired youth:
Uniforms were not required for the photos, but perhaps there was a specific, western dress code for the photos. We don't know. They don't support his claims about dressing like a foreigner, but it is hard to speak definitively based on such limited evidence.

On the other hand, on one day when his keffiyeh would have been permitted, "Hat Day," Ergun Caner wore rather different head gear:
That may have been after his conversion, but it was his sophomore year. There are similar photos from his junior and senior years outside of the yearbook photos, never with a robe, never with any Muslim hats of any kind. There is one exception, he wears a robe in one context:
Of course, you'll recognize that what is shown there is a choir robe. The rest of the students are wearing the same.

In short, here is my understanding of Dr. Ergun Caner: he is an actor.


Within my understanding of Dr. Caner, as an actor, his stage name is "Ergun Mehmet Caner" (his Father's real middle name is Mehmet, but we cannot seem to find any legal documents with "Ergun Mehmet Caner") and the role he is playing is that of a converted Muslim extremist. To this end, he adds a little color here and there to his actual autobiography.

I don't think Dr. Caner meant any harm in this. I think he believed it added a little spice to a life story of growing up in a suburb of Columbus. The story "Ergun Mehmet Caner" has at its core the true life story of Ergun Michael Caner, whose father was a devout Muslim man who enjoyed sports - especially soccer.

Along the way, Dr. Caner seems to (note that it is hard to definitively say) have added a variety of details to his autobiography, such as the suggestion that he got saved later and later in life, and that he came to America later and later as well.

Indeed, despite the evidence we have that strongly suggests Caner was in the U.S. from around 1970 until he completed high school, there are (of course) some gaps.

His mother swore (literally swore an official oath) that Ergun's father had resided in the U.S. for "six years" (as of July 31, 1975), which suggests that the Caner family was in the U.S. at least from 1969 (after Ergun's birth and Erdem's birth and before Emir's birth) to at least the middle of 1975 (copy of her affidavit)(property records corroborate at least part of this). Furthermore, on April 14, 1978, his mother was awarded permanent physical custody of him at a specific address in a suburb of Columbus, OH (copy of divorce decree), and the separation agreement filed on that same date prohibited anyone from removing the children from the local county in Ohio for two years (link to separation agreement). The only gap there is mid-1975 to early 1978. That's about two and a half years. At the very beginning of that gap we have a restraining order dated August 22, 1975, preventing anyone from removing the children from the country and awarding primary custody to the children's mother (link to restraining order). Is it possible that during that two year gap the Mr. Caner somehow took his kids to Turkey and then brought them back? Of course, there are many possibilities, but the evidence doesn't suggest that - on the contrary the evidence suggests that boys lived in Ohio during the interim, since the property on Gertrude St. remained in the Caners' ownership until mid-1978 (link to official property records). Additionally, the dispute over custody and child supported continued into 1976 (link to order from February 1976). However, it appears that Caner's mother prevailed, because the divorce decree makes reference to the fact that custody was awarded to the Caners' mother after a hearing, which again confirms that their residence was with her (the divorce decree appears to be referring to a March 11, 1976 order)(see the docket sheet for the Caner divorce, which appears to confirm that it is the March 11, 1976 order that is in view). Did they vacation to Turkey at some point? I suppose it possible - but it does not appear that they grew up there. All the evidence suggests they grew up in Franklin County, Ohio.

But the story about coming to America in 1978 or 1979 adds a lot of color, and it isn't really the main point (perhaps they even made some little vacation to Turkey during that time period - it doesn't appear probable, but who can disprove it without more evidence?). I'm not defending him for making those kinds of comments, but I don't think people should assume that his intentions were particularly nefarious. I think charity suggests that we should assume that Dr. Caner got caught up in the character of "Ergun Mehmet Caner" that he had created, and decided to make the character more interesting for audience. In that regard it worked, but at the price of a great deal of his own credibility. What is truly sad is that some of his supporters continue to suggest that additional proof is needed before we can reach the conclusion that it appears that Dr. Caner embellished his autobiography.

May I respectfully encourage his supporters to exhort him to come clean - clear away the erroneous impressions that he has given people with his very colorful stories, and give God the glory for saving him, even without all the added color. It's by no means a drab testimony when God saves a perfectly ordinary boy from Ohio. There's plenty of color in that, and praise God that Dr. Caner professes the name of Christ!

- TurretinFan

42 comments:

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto you.

After reflecting upon the title of a book called 'Unveiling Islam' in which a woman is featured on the cover I began to think of how truly diabolical that is. That seems like something that a liberal with no belief in God would do just for the sake of provocation.

I mean why would any person Muslim or Christian want to 'unveil' a woman? The title of that book has sexual over tones that are anything but directed by the Spirit of God.

I hope other Christians refelct upon that as well.

Turretinfan said...

I have wondered the same thing - my conclusion is that from the liberal Western mindset (which I do not endorse) the woman's covering is seen as a burden rather than a protection. Thus, "unveiling Islam" is intended to refer to releasing the woman's burden, not removing her protection and modesty.

-TurretinFan

Glenn Hendrickson said...

T-Fan, your research never ceases to amaze me!

-glenn

Anonymous said...

Let's hope the Post doesn't link to your website or Caner will be toast!!
Godith

Lightwalker said...

How long will it be until someone from his school will be tracked down? There has to be someone who could vouch for or deny his story. He was involved in enough activities. He had to have had close friends and acquaintances.

Personally, I think this is quite convincing evidence. The likelihood that someone who just came to the school and barely spoke the language being involved in this many activities is HIGHLY unlikely.

Carla said...

Thanks for this TFan. I only hope Caner's supporters do as you suggest and urge him to come clean with all this. It truly is the only right thing to do.

Anonymous said...

What books on Islam would you recommend? Canner is out, and apparently the info in his books on Islam is not trustworhty.
Dr. Robert Morey is out on financial mishandling and now, apparently he is in hiding...
Who can we trust to give us accurate understanding of Islam?
Who do you and James White recommend?
Is Geisler's book alright on this?
What about Mark Gabriel? (or may he have another "Canner" situation there as well?)
Thanks for all the help!

natamllc said...

Lightwalker,

the irony here is the Caner brothers themselves.

The Spirit of Truth is just Who He is!

Now, the contrary is true for the spirit of this world and her leader, the god of this world system.

Everyone, Saint and sinner mock him as a liar and in every sense, nefarious.

My only caution is, "if" and "when" his story is rehabilitated and there is a sincere and genuine realization that he is indeed one of our own, that we do as much or more in his restoration as we have in bringing the light forth on his deeds of darkness:

Rom 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Rom 15:2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.
Rom 15:3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me."
Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Rom 15:5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.

and

Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
Eph 5:12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
Eph 5:13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
Eph 5:14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Eph 5:15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise,
Eph 5:16 making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.


I am not sure that that will be possible within the SBC camp?

It certainly won't be in the world's.

Turretinfan said...

"What books on Islam would you recommend?"

Actually, a lot of the material in the Caners brothers' book, Unveiling Islam is good. One just has to be discerning.

"Canner is out, and apparently the info in his books on Islam is not trustworhty."

It's not perfect and it may not be scholarly, but it may still be useful introduction.

"Dr. Robert Morey is out on financial mishandling and now, apparently he is in hiding..."

I don't see how financial mishandling (even assuming that it is true) would affect one's scholarship on Islam. Again - be discerning.

"Who can we trust to give us accurate understanding of Islam?
Who do you and James White recommend?"

I'll Dr. White speak for himself - he's a more thorough student of Islam than I am.

"Is Geisler's book alright on this?
What about Mark Gabriel? (or may he have another "Canner" situation there as well?) Thanks for all the help!"

Sorry that I'm not more help. I hope that authors are not an all-or-nothing situation -- not all of my own writings are perfect, though I hope I am able to correct my mistakes and grow from them.

- TurretinFan

BibleWheel said...

One of the best books for an introduction to Islam is "Who Speaks for Islam?" - it reports on the results of the largest Gallop poll ever taken of Muslims. Over 50,000 hours of interviews. It directly contradicts most of the garbage in the Caners' book.

Another excellent book is called "The Islamist" - by Ed Husain. it begins with a profoundly moving account of what life with real living, loving, truly devout Muslims is like. (Unlike the Caners' book which gave me the sense that they knew Islam only through stereotypes.) His description is indistinguishable from a what we as Christians would describe as humble and saintly folks centered completely on love for God and fellow man. It is particularly intriguing because it details how he was radicalized by political Islam which he adamantly (and convincingly) distinguishes from the genuine "religion of Islam."

Pilgrimsarbour said...

I hope that authors are not an all-or-nothing situation -- not all of my own writings are perfect, though I hope I am able to correct my mistakes and grow from them.

I appreciate your humility in this regard, TFan, but the usual dangers of an author's or publisher's possible errors are worlds apart from the dangers of an author's possible fabrications.

There is a disturbing history here. Your admonition to discernment is fine if one has a head full of readily accessible true facts from which to bounce Unveiling Islam against. For the rest of us shlubs, I still say it's not worth all the extra effort required.

No, give me an author of noted, high (in this case Christian) character first. That is the real discernment required before anything else, in my view. Errors I can handle.

Book Talk said...

Good job. I have attended Liberty. I saw this coming.

Strong Tower said...

"I don't think Dr. Caner meant any harm in this. I think he believed it added a little spice to a life story of growing up in a suburb of Columbus."

I remain a skeptic.

Fred Butler said...

Anonymous asks,
What books on Islam would you recommend?

Robert Spencer's material is fairly good from a secular point of view. He has a Political Incorrect Guide edition that is worth the read providing the basics. For a background to the Crusades, see Thomas Madden's "Concise History of the Crusades." Mercifully short and to the point.

And I am surprised no one has mentioned Sam's work at www.answering-islam.org. There are tons of good articles on a variety of subjects.

That will at least get you started until James White has his book published on the subject. =-)

Anonymous said...

Mr. Butler:

I would hardly recommend Robert Spencer as an expert on Islam. He is heavily criticized by most scholars of Islam. Likewise, answeringislam is an anti-islamic site.

I would suggest that getting close to primary sources is generally best. Do you know any good books on Christianity written by Muslims?

Turretinfan said...

Anonymous:

All the good Christian works on Islam that have any sort of apologetic/polemic/missionary bent to them will be criticized by Muslims. That's not a reason for Christians or Muslims to avoid reading them.

I didn't list Sam Shamoun's website, Answering Islam, because the question was about books. It is a great website, even though (or perhaps even because) it is so disliked by Muslims.

-TurretinFan

Fred Butler said...

Anonymous writes,
I would hardly recommend Robert Spencer as an expert on Islam. He is heavily criticized by most scholars of Islam.

Well of course he will be criticized by scholars on Islam, because he writes as a critic of Islam and Mohammed specifically. There is, however, a difference between him being a critic and then one whose work can be demonstrated to be in error. I would imagine those same Islamic "scholars" would be critical of James White, too.

Likewise, answeringislam is an anti-islamic site.

Yes, because it is a maintained by Christians who believe Islam as a religion is false and has no power to save anyone from the condemnation of God's law. Again, being against Islam is not the same thing as being in error about Islam.

Do you know any good books on Christianity written by Muslims?

No. But if there is a Muslim who writes honestly and fairly about the theology and history of Christianity, I would be happy to consider it. Of the stuff I have read, the writer depends heavily upon apostate Christian "scholarship," out of date higher critical arguments, and cranky atheist arguments as their sources to criticize the Bible and Christianity.

Anonymous said...

Butler,

"Of the stuff I have read, the writer depends heavily upon apostate Christian "scholarship," out of date higher critical arguments, and cranky atheist arguments as their sources to criticize the Bible and Christianity."

And what evidence do you have that Robert Spencer (and ilk) doesn't depend on apostate Muslim scholarship or taking things out of context to criticize the Koran and Islam? Or only it matters for you when it is Christianity? Robert Spencer is not a critic or a scholar, but a vitriolic man hellbent on dishing out hate as literature. Read below to see what's wrong with Spencer (and ilk) and note that it is non-Muslims and fellow Christians who say so (in case u may tempted to say Muslims as usual)


http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/12/contact-usa-today-for-their-epic-failure/

Turretinfan said...

Anonymous:

Loonwatch.com is hardly a compelling site.

-TurretinFan

Anonymous said...

Then what's a compelling site? The one that feeds our seclusion and tribal understanding of things? The one that consoles our already determined world view? I love it. Call it intellectual dishonesty (or poverty). And by the way, Loonwatch pointed out what other people said about Robert. If even quoting them is not compelling, then that makes it easy to digest what would make you happy. May be I should quote Pamela Geller? Now happy? Now that's compelling. Kkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Turretinfan said...

"Then what's a compelling site? The one that feeds our seclusion and tribal understanding of things?"

Who is our?

-TurretinFan

Anonymous said...

To add, I believe an intelligent person can decipher for him/herself what's an intellectual input from lazy dishonest input. And can determine what's biased and what's not. Two things should be clear here:

1. Butler's assertion that there is no good book on Christianity by Muslims because they are biased should also mean there is no good book on Islam by Christians because they are biased. It can't be only one way. It is a stupid (if not outright buffoonery) to imagine otherwise.

2. Secondly, there is much to be desired in reading Robert's work on Islam. It is too negative and twisted for even a toddler. It is here that I say one can separate the wheat from the chuff. So even if one finds Loonwatch distasteful, one can still decipher the diabolic drivel at Jihad watch. Unless of course we say that (or this) is not compelling (I'm, coming to love this compelling thing) because we have already positioned ourselves and that's what I see here.

Anonymous said...

"Who is our"

There is no "our" here. Should there be one (or a question like that), probably it would have to be answered by you because it is you who dismissed Loonwatch outright without giving an explanation. And I used it as a link on some quotes on Robert.

Pilgrimsarbour said...

There is no "our" here.

TF is asking in regards to your previous comment which was:

Then what's a compelling site? The one that feeds our seclusion and tribal understanding of things?

I suspect TF does not agree that he has a "tribal understanding" of Islam, whatever in the world that means.

PA

Pilgrimsarbour said...

By the way, LoonWatch.com is a far leftist, jihadi appeaser site. Go to sleep, America. We are your friends! All is well. All is well...

Nope. Nothing of any real use there. Just some bitter, left wing nutjobs with the usual foul-mouthed, grammar-challenged pablum-puking nonsense we've come to expect from jihadi front groups like CAIR and their ilk.

Turretinfan said...

Anonymous:

I don't feel I need to give you an explanation at this time. Thanks for stopping by.

-TurretinFan

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Speaking of juicing up one's bio, Republican Christopher Shays of Connecticut had this to say about his friend, Democratic Senate Candidate Richard Blumenthal, another serial story embellisher:

"More and more it kept creeping in,” he said. “And it was very different than when he first described his [Vietnam] service. I'm not surprised, because he just kept adding to the story, the more he told it. I think what happens in a case like this, it's a tiny increment of change, but when you haven't heard him in years you say, that's a big difference."...

source

While Blumenthal's embellishments about having served in Vietnam are bad enough, and likely to ruin his chances at the polls, at least the gospel, the Name of Christ and the credibility of His followers aren't at stake.

Fred Butler said...

Anonymous wrote:
Butler's assertion that there is no good book on Christianity by Muslims because they are biased should also mean there is no good book on Islam by Christians because they are biased. It can't be only one way. It is a stupid (if not outright buffoonery) to imagine otherwise.

Yes, I did assert that. Do you have one to recommend? And please don't tell me Maurice Bucailli.

By the way, I did happen to mention that Robert Spencer is secular. I don't consider him a "Christian" scholar.

Southern Alfred said...

pilgrimsarbour wrote:

"By the way, LoonWatch.com is a far leftist, jihadi appeaser site. Go to sleep, America. We are your friends! All is well. All is well...

Nope. Nothing of any real use there. Just some bitter, left wing nutjobs with the usual foul-mouthed, grammar-challenged pablum-puking nonsense we've come to expect from jihadi front groups like CAIR and their ilk."


Now where is the wisdom in your words? Which part of what you wrote is an intellectual argument to support your drivel? And you accuse others of being grammar challenged buffoons and foreign ideology supporting hordes, yet you betray yourself by exposing your demonic style harangue that leaves no room for good. And you go on to lambaste without critical answer and even an explanation as to what you want to say (if you can say anything in the 1st place). All I read was base insults by a hate driven tribal warlords and no intelligent being can be won over by such mind boggling, self righteous tribal bigots.

Southern Alfred said...

Fred Butler,

It is Maurice Bucaille and not Maurice Bucailli as you wrote. Secondly, Bucaille was a Muslim (convert) and therefore I don't see how one has to propose him as a source on a religion that he was dissatisfied with and left. Thirdly, Bucaille was a Medical Doctor and his work in related to that. I think his biggest work has been The Bible, the Koran and the Science in which he argues that the Koran has a better scientific input than the Bible. And religion mainly particularly the emotive issues are spiritual and its handling of man, something Bucaille never ventured into.

Fourthly, if Spencer is not a Christian scholar, which law and justice makes him a Muslim scholar? Or his lazy reading of butchered Islamic work and his shameful selective cherry picking makes him one? Oh, my God! Fifthly, him being secular doesn't mean he can't be a scholar on Christianity. A well informed atheist can be a scholar on a given subject provided he has the necessary knowledge and proved scholarship. If he wasn't one, he won't have poised himself as a Christian apologetic, or may be that proves one thing again: his time proven cherry picking career on all sides. Lambasting Islam and Muslims on one hand and dusting Christianity and Christians on the other. And there is nothing difficult in doing that since time immemorial.

Southern Alfred said...

To answer your question:


I don’t think there is a single book on Christianity ever written by a Muslim that’s good or at least appreciated by Christians. Likewise, I have never seen a book on Islam written by Christians that will pass the test of human good and neutrality. Prejudice is paramount on both sides. One difference though, Muslim written books on Christianity are far much more few than Christian written books on Islam; the reason being that Muslim books are mainly to repudiate the spiritual being of Christianity itself. Like Trinity, Jesus as a Son of God vs his God status. Corruption in Christian texts and etc. however, Christians concentrate on almost everything Islamic from political, economical, social, spiritual, religious and ect. The result of both endeavors varies but both have a certain degree of success.

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Southern Alfred,

...no intelligent being can be won over by such mind boggling, self righteous tribal bigots.

Hence the style of argumentation I have adopted here with a view to winning you over.

Sincerely,

PA

P.S. Tribal Warlords Rock!

Southern Alfred said...

pilgrim,


It is good that you accept your handicap albeit inadvertently.

Turretinfan said...

Decide between us which religion is tribal: the religion to which God bore testimony with the sign of tongues and in which the worshipers may worship God in the language they have known since a child, or the religion in which everyone must pray in Arabic.

Please tell me which of these religions is global and which is tribal.

-TurretinFan

Alfred Southern said...

Turretin,

By saying tribal I mean supporting a specific mindset and seeking consolation in it and dismissing any outside view, culture, religion, ideology, mentality, creed, color and etc.

Coming to your question, I think it was only the other day that Latin was stopped as being the only language God understands. And when you judge Muslims that they can only pray in Arabic, I think you are narrowing prayers. Yes, they use Arabic verses in the 5 prayers they pray, the ritual ones, but that is it. And any other prayer is and can be conducted in any language. I'm sure you are aware Arabs constitute less than 13% of all Muslims. Isn't it ridiculous therefore to claim that it is an Arabic religion? Indonesian Muslims alone who never speak Arabic and never use it to deliver their sermons in it outnumber all Arabs Muslims on earth. It is pretty that simple.

Beware, if you go along the tribal, racial line, you will find that Christianity has many times proved to be racial. It is easy to prove. Muslims should respect Christians and vice versa, I think that's what will bring peace to both sides. But the idea of debasing one in order to seek consolation and wallow in intellectual dishonesty is what I dismiss as utter laziness and outright hypocrisy. Thanks

Turretinfan said...

"By saying tribal I mean supporting a specific mindset and seeking consolation in it and dismissing any outside view, culture, religion, ideology, mentality, creed, color and etc."

And the problem with that is?

"Coming to your question, I think it was only the other day that Latin was stopped as being the only language God understands."

You are wrong.

"And when you judge Muslims that they can only pray in Arabic, I think you are narrowing prayers."

Oh?

"Yes, they use Arabic verses in the 5 prayers they pray, the ritual ones, but that is it."

a) What makes you think other prayers have any effect in their religion?

b) Their Arabic prayers, especially the Shahada, are far and away central to their religion.

"And any other prayer is and can be conducted in any language."

ok...

"I'm sure you are aware Arabs constitute less than 13% of all Muslims."

ok

"Isn't it ridiculous therefore to claim that it is an Arabic religion?"

No.

"Indonesian Muslims alone who never speak Arabic and never use it to deliver their sermons in it outnumber all Arabs Muslims on earth."

But - again - the prayers that their religion requires are prayers in Arabic.

"It is pretty that simple."

??

"Beware, if you go along the tribal, racial line, you will find that Christianity has many times proved to be racial."

To what race has Christianity not come? Indeed, while there remain many tiny tribes to which God's word has not yet come, it has gone out throughout all the Earth.

"It is easy to prove."

What is?

"Muslims should respect Christians and vice versa, I think that's what will bring peace to both sides. But the idea of debasing one in order to seek consolation and wallow in intellectual dishonesty is what I dismiss as utter laziness and outright hypocrisy. Thanks"

Christ didn't come to bring peace among world religions. (Nor did Mohammed, for that matter.)

-TurretinFan

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Alfred Southern,

I don't understand what happened to this thread. TF's post is about the identity of the real Ergun Caner. He has shown great restraint in the face of all the "embellishments" from Caner by bringing the facts to the fore in a dispassionate way. The credibility of Christians and how they deal with their wayward brethren is the issue at hand, not "tribal warlords and bigots" and other such nonsense which has nothing to do with this post.

But for some reason, we've gone off track. Okay, here it is, then. The truth is, if you do not know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, you will not be spending eternity in the presence of Him and of the Father and of the Holy Spirit together with the elect angels and the body of believers chosen from all eternity. You have no basis for believing you will ever be complete and in a state of bliss in His presence after you die if you reject Him and the salvation He has accomplished and applied at the cross of Calvary.

Muhammad did not die for you. Muhammad cannot save you. Come to the light, my friend, and through faith embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, the only way of salvation. Cry out to Him. Ask Him for forgiveness and repent of your sins while it is still day, for night is coming--and He will bring you to His bosom and present you to the Father on that great and terrible Day of the Lord. There is salvation in no other in Heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.

Praying for you that you will be blessed in the knowledge and love of our Great Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,

Pilgrimsarbour

Alfred Southern said...

And the problem with that is?

Is that you can't be in a position to judge others because you ONLY agree with yourself.

You are wrong.

To what extent? You can't deny that it has been the central language of Christianity despite it not being the language of revelation.

Oh?

Yes.

a) What makes you think other prayers have any effect in their religion?

What makes you thing that only Arabic works for them? And what's effect? In fact, the Koran states that one of God's signs is that he has created many languages. That God can't fail to understand his own creation. ”And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.” (Koran 30: 22)

b) Their Arabic prayers, especially the Shahada, are far and away central to their religion.
The Shahada can and is said by any language. It is not a must that it should be said only in Arabic. And there is reason why some people prefer to say it in Arabic. Because the word Allah unlike God which can be turned into feminine or masculine can't. And this affirms Islam's central theme: the unquestionable oneness of God.

"Isn't it ridiculous therefore to claim that it is an Arabic religion? No.

On what basis? If Arabs are an extreme minority in Islam, what makes it an Arab religion? Arabic is the language of revelation for Islam, that can't render it an Arab religion. If it were, then 1.25 billion non-Arabs won't have taken it as their faith vs 250 million Arabs. Unless of course (as a tribal) you dispute the intelligence of those 1.25 billion non-Arab Muslims.

But - again - the prayers that their religion requires are prayers in Arabic.

No! It is not. Islamic ruling is clear on this. The fact that the language of revelation may be learnt for better understanding doesn't mean one has to know or pray in Arabic. And if one were to learn Arabic, it is a bonus anyway. Of the Muslims I know, none speaks Arabic.

To what race has Christianity not come? Indeed, while there remain many tiny tribes to which God's word has not yet come, it has gone out throughout all the Earth.

Pretty true for Islam too. Islam has been accepted by almost any nation, tribe ect. Take America today, it is the tribes (The Hispanics, the Blacks, The Mormons, the Saxons etc) who are accepting Islam. And none speak Arabic. "Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US.Hillary Clinton). According to the Readers's Digest, Islam spread 237% over Christianity in the last decade. Is that an Arabic stuff?

Christ didn't come to bring peace among world religions. (Nor did Mohammed, for that matter.)


If not peace then what? Bloodshed?

Alfred Southern said...

Pilgrim,

Thanks for your invite to Christianity. Yes, I understand the post wasn't about the debate that's taking place on this thread but again that's what happened and we are engaging in civilized debate.

Of course I know Ergun Caner and I have one word to describe him: a certified fraudster.

Turretinfan said...

"Is that you can't be in a position to judge others because you ONLY agree with yourself."

Why would it follow that I can't judge others based on my only agreeing with myself?

"To what extent? You can't deny that it has been the central language of Christianity despite it not being the language of revelation."

Sure I can. There's lots more to Christianity than Rome.

"The Shahada can and is said by any language. It is not a must that it should be said only in Arabic."

The Sunni seem to think so. Perhaps you are from some other branch?

"On what basis? If Arabs are an extreme minority in Islam, what makes it an Arab religion? Arabic is the language of revelation for Islam, that can't render it an Arab religion. If it were, then 1.25 billion non-Arabs won't have taken it as their faith vs 250 million Arabs. Unless of course (as a tribal) you dispute the intelligence of those 1.25 billion non-Arab Muslims."

The religion requires non-Arabic people to speak in Arabic as part of the religion. Very sects of Islam also encourage an imitation of the lifestyle of Mohammed including things like dressing the way he dressed.

"No! It is not. Islamic ruling is clear on this. The fact that the language of revelation may be learnt for better understanding doesn't mean one has to know or pray in Arabic. And if one were to learn Arabic, it is a bonus anyway. Of the Muslims I know, none speaks Arabic."

There is no requirement that people understand the Arabic they are praying, but the prayers are Arabic and people memorize them in Arabic.

"Pretty true for Islam too. Islam has been accepted by almost any nation, tribe ect. Take America today, it is the tribes (The Hispanics, the Blacks, The Mormons, the Saxons etc) who are accepting Islam. And none speak Arabic. "Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US.Hillary Clinton). According to the Readers's Digest, Islam spread 237% over Christianity in the last decade. Is that an Arabic stuff?"

Uh ... you seem to have gotten lost in which argument you were addressing. You may scroll up to see.

"If not peace then what? Bloodshed?"

There are ways for religions to be opposed without bloodshed. However, they are not at peace with one another, even when no blood is being spilled.

-TurretinFan

news4themasses said...

There is another "Convert from Islam to Christianity" that Muslims have accused of not being a real Muslim, Walid Shoebat.Another Calvary Favorite. Seems these non-extremists are getting in and making a mockery of the church. But who can blame them, the church, they are being deliberately mislead by their own leaders. Here's a question, Why? Why would said converts 'enter in' to mislead people? Who are they really working for? Go there and the conspiracies become much more dark.

Arthur Adam Haglund said...

Teh Holy Bible says that God HATES a lying tongue. Paul wrote that it is said that where sin abound, grace much more abounds, then he addresses the question of sinning to make good things happen and he says, "GOD FORBID".
Unless Ergun repents and publicly recants the very public lies he has told, he is an unrepentant, mammon grubbing servant of sin.

By the way, Ergun Caner seems to think that ignoring direct questions is the best tactic to take, because ANY engagement brings only two possibilities, further lies or the ignominy of having to admit his lies. I have confronted him on twitter several times, along with his brother, neither dares EVER comment or reply to anything, they are actually that dishonest and scared!