Saturday, January 17, 2009

Latria/Dulia Debate with GNRHead

Mr. Lane Chaplin, who moderated the Latria/Dulia Debate that I had with GNRHead has very kindly hosted it as a full-length video.



In case you would like to follow along by reading the debate, Matthew Lankford has kindly provided a transcript, to which I have made a few minor edits. If anyone sees ways that the transcript can be improved, please let me know.

*** TRANSCRIPT BEGINS ***

Lane Chaplin: Welcome to the Latria-Dulia Debate. Our debate today will attempt to answer the following:

Can dulia and proskuneo be used in a Religious context without being worship?

Our debaters today are William Albrecht taking the affirmative position and TurretinFan taking the negative.

William Albrecht is currently a Catholic Apologist and the webmaster of the Catholic Legate apologetics organization. William was raised into a non-religious practicing household and eventually became a Protestant. After much studying and the undertaking of a religious career William converted to the Catholic faith close to seven years ago. His contact information is Youtube.com/GNRhead or GNRhead@gmail.com.

TurretinFan is a Reformed apologist who operates the blog Thoughts of Francis Turretin. His only relevant qualifications is that he is a believer with a Bible. He makes no claims of being anyone particularly important and he debates pseudonymously in hopes of drawing the attention away form himself. His contact information is turretinfan.blogspot.com and he occasionally posts on AOMin.org.

My name is Lane Chaplin and I will be moderating this debate. The debate will last about an hour in length and will follow the following format:

There will be a first Affirmative Constructive by Albrecht, which will be seven minutes.
A Cross Ex[amination] of the Affirmative by the Negative position, which is three minutes.
One Negative Constructive by Turretin[Fan] which will be eight minutes.
A Cross Ex[amination] of the Negative by the Affermative, which will be three minutes.
One Affirmative Rebuttal, which will be four minutes.
Negative Rebuttal, which will be seven minutes.
And a Second Affirmative Rebuttal, which will be four [minutes].

We do ask each debater to please refrain from making any comments or audible gestures during the opponents allotted time. This will not only show respect for your opponent during this endeavor, it will also allow for there to be meaningful discussion on both ends of this debate. And, as always, if your favorite debater makes a point you agree with audience please hold your applause until the end of his allotted time (heh).

Now we begin with the first Affirmative Construction by Mister Albrecht. Mister Albrecht you have seven minutes; I'll begin the clock when you begin.

[≈ 2.40]

William Albrecht: Alright from the get go, I'd like to say God bless both to Lane and to Turretin[Fan] for making this happen. And let's get down to the issues now.

The contention that I've been hearing from my Protestant brethren is that there simply is no Biblical distinction between latria and dulia in the terms of religious context. Well, the fact of the matter is, what I'm asserting is that dulia and latria are two distinct words -- used differently at times. Sure dulia is and should always be rendered to God, but it's also shown as being rendered elsewhere in references that are not directed towards God. Latria is never shown as proper towards anyone other than God -- and that is clear. But dulia is different. Of course, it should be rendered to God, of course, its service and we are to obey and serve our God -- that is clear. To me, it seems like a silly qualifier to claim that dulia can be given to mankind, but it's never shown as given to mankind in a religious context. This entails our Protestant brethren to begin to claim that since Catholics do give dulia to the Saints, that it is in a religious manner, this then leads them to say that we offer them worship, since this form of dulia is in the religious form. To me, it seems like a game of words that can be confusing to some that don't know the real issues. The reason I believe that AOMin. has to set up this task to set up this false interpretation of Biblical words is because it then allows them to say that dulia is, indeed, [a word?] used toward mankind, but never in a religious context. What AOMin. means to say is that dulia is never used toward mankind in a worship context as it is of God in the Old Testament. We would not argue with that, we do not contend, that we give the religious dulia to Mary -- that amounts to worship -- or to any Saint for that matter. These word games could confuse some, but once examined they seem anything but serious. They are silly little word games that attempt to confuse the mind of the individual. It is also contended that proskuneo, when used in a religious context, is always worship. Therefore, according to AOMin. this all amounts to Catholics worshiping Mary and the other Saints. We'll examine a bit more to see how these claims simply do not hold water. Upon the examination of the Friberg Lexicon, the the Barclay-Newman Greek Dictionary, [inaudible] Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, and Thayer's Greek Lexicon we see that dulia can be given to mankind and never do we have the qualifier that AOMin. has seemingly adopted from John Calvin. Moving forward, the one Lexicon that Mister White of AOMin. did bring up, the BDA&G, to support his position of not mentioning a distinction, surely does. In fact the BDA&G tells us that dulia is used in many aspects of the Christian life including aspects that are tied in with the religious. Moving forward, the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church defines latria as such:

"As contrasted with dulia, that fullness of Divine worship which may be paid to God alone."

A Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott tells us "The veneration of the Saints is called absolute dulia. The Council of Trent declared in connection with the veneration of Saints, that through images we honor the Saints which they represent."

[this section could be continued as part of the quote] As regards to invocation of the Saints, the council declared:

[this section could be continued as part of the quote too] "It is good and profitable to appeal to help from them."

This can be found on page three hundred and nineteen of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma from Ott.

The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia defines dulia as such:

"[...]a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone[...]" [link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm]

Then we move on and we've got The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia which tells us of latria [link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09036a.htm] that it is worship called forth by God and given exclusively to Him as God, which is designated by the Greek term latreuo.

So, everywhere you turn you see the clear distinction to the two terms and never the qualifier that we see certain Protestant individuals injecting. And in order to pretty much lay the ground work I've mentioned a couple of lexicons, Greek dictionaries, and I've also defined the terms as put forth by the Catholic encyclopedias.

Okay, that will be it for my opening statement.

[≈ 6:55]

Lane Chaplin: Okay, Turretin[Fan] you have three minutes for cross-examining William.

TurretinFan: Mister Albrecht, do you see any Biblical passage in which latria and dulia are distinguished?

William Albrecht: In which latria and dulia are distinguished? Absolutely. Are you asking me passages in which they both appear?

TurretinFan: No, I guess what I'm asking is this: Is there some passage out there where Scripture says it's okay to give latria to God, but it's not okay to give latria to men?

William Albrecht: Are you referring to the fact that... I'm not quite understanding... Are you trying to ask me to approach this from a theological perspective? Or do you want me to pull out a Biblical passage, which uses both terms and distinguishes between them? I don't quite understand the question.

TurretinFan: Well, the question, I guess, is getting to whether or not the theological position that your advocating is a theological position derived from Scripture. My contention is that it is not... But I'd like to know if you believe there is some Scripture passage, which, in effect, says it's okay to give dulia to men. [question]

William Albrecht: Oh, okay. I understand it a little bit clearer now. Absolutely. I believe that you are of the persuasion... You do believe it is alright to give dulia to man, right? You just don't believe it is right to give dulia in the form of a religious context. Am I correct?

TurretinFan: Well, yes, of course, I'm not saying that it's improper for servants to give service to their masters. What I'm... What I'm asking for is somewhere where the Bibles making the theological distinction that your making.

William Albrecht: You mean that dulia can be... can be used toward mankind in a religious context? Would you like me to show you an example?

TurretinFan: Sure, yeah, please provide an example.

William Albrecht: Well, it's not my cross-examination and I can't ask you a question. I'll simply (pose/post) Galatians, chapter five, verses thirteen to fourteen [Galatians 5:13-14] and I will assert that the Greek term douleuo is used in a religious context in this verse and it is indeed used toward mankind.

TurretinFan: In Galatians five, thirteen to fourteen [Galatians 5:13-14], the verse states:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another."

Are you suggesting that this says we can serve one another in this lifetime using douleuo?

William Albrecht: Absolutely.

[≈ 10:00]

Lane Chaplin: Ok, that's the end of the first cross examination. Now we'll have a negative construct by Turretin[Fan], which consists of eight minutes.

[≈ 10:14]

TurretinFan: The debate today is about whether the distinction that modern Catholicism presents between latria and dulia is Biblical or medieval in origin. Where does it come from? I would respectfully submit to you that it is not Biblical. It is a philosophical innovation designed to defend a pagan practice that was introduced into churches [?] after the time of the Apostles.

What I'll do in this speech is:
First, state the position of the Vatican.
Second, contrast that with the Biblical position.
And third, answer Mister Albrecht's arguments.

Catholicism's Position Stated

Although Mister Albrecht provided some definitions of Rome's position [?], allow me to provide what I think is a little clearer explanation. Rome's position is well summarized by philosopher, theologian, Thomas Aquinas, who wrote:

"Since "latria" is due to God alone, it is not due to a creature so far as we venerate a creature for its own sake. For though insensible creatures are not capable of being venerated for their own sake, yet the rational creature is capable of being venerated for its own sake. Consequently the worship of "latria" is not due to any mere rational creature for its own sake. Since, therefore, the Blessed Virgin is a mere rational creature, the worship of "latria" is not due to her, but only that of "dulia": but in a higher degree than to other creatures, inasmuch as she is the Mother of God. For this reason we say that not any kind of "dulia" is due to her, but "hyperdulia.""

This quotation provides the framework: "Latria" which is for God alone. "Hyper-dulia" which is for Mary alone. And "dulia" which is for the Saints. Of course, dulia can also be offered to God, but for the purposes of this discussion, we're focusing on the fact that it is offered to the Saints.

In English this distinction is sometimes expressed in the difference between worship or adoration and veneration. Adoration and worship corresponding to latria and veneration corresponding to dulia. Moving on to the second point.

The Biblical Testimony

This threefold framework is not taught in Scripture. Scripture generally teaches that all religious adoration and veneration is due to God alone. Thus, we, Reformed Christians, do not religiously venerate one another or anyone but God alone. Both the Old and New Testaments agree. Deuteronomy five (Deuteronomy 5) states:

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments."

Someone might point out that the word "alone" is not in the text. Fair enough. Scripture also gets more specific and more clear. Matthew four (Matthew 4) states:

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

The same account may be found in Luke's Gospel. But this was not new to the New Testament.
Christ is referencing the Bible to establish this doctrinal position -- that only God should receive religious adoration or veneration. Notice that Jesus doesn't rely on his own authority in rebuking Satan, but says "for it is written[...]" These same themes can be seen in the Old Testament.
First, first Samuel states, in chapter seven (1 Samuel 7):

"And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LORD, and serve him only: and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines."

Scripture provides no exceptions for men to adore or venerate religiously someone or something other than God with a lesser form of religious adoration.

Having seen these two positions let us, in the third place, examine Mister Albrecht's case.
Mister Albrecht argues that latria and dulia are two different words. Well, not of course the Latin words, but the corresponding Greek words. We agree. We agree that they are different words. Latria is generally used of worship. And dulia can refer not only to worship, but also to a very high degree of service, such as slavery. The question is not whether the Greek words have different definitions in the Greek lexicons, but whether Scripture provides a basis for Rome's claims. It does not. Mister Albrecht also makes reference to [BDA&G] lexicon in support of his position, but again that lexicon and the other lexicons that were mentioned don't state that the latria-dulia distinction -- the philosophical distinction-- the question we're arguing about -- is inherent in the Greek. And, in fact, it isn't inherent in the Greek, as noted above, it's a medieval innovation -- this drawing a distinction between latria and dulia, as far as dulia being acceptable form of veneration for humans is something that didn't exist in Biblical times -- it's not a classical Greek concept that imported it in. Instead, it's a philosophical device to justify what's been done.

Additionally, during cross examination, Mister Albrecht cited to Galatians five, thirteen to fourteen (Galatians 5:13-14) Galatians five, thirteen to fourteen (Galatians 5:13-14) states,

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Now, seeing in context what's stated there we can see the fulfillment of Galatians five, thirteen to fourteen, has nothing at all to do with the idea of kneeling down before icons or statues, lighting incense and candles; it has to do with showing practical love to the brethren. It has... An example would be the Good Samaritan, he's someone who loved his neighbor. This is the kind of thing [?] Galatians five, thirteen to fourteen talks about. It's not talking about the religious context of dulia that's used in the Vatican's theology. Consequently Galatians five, thirteen to fourteen, can't provide support for the distinction that's been presented. Accordingly, we are left with the, just the, Scriptural position, already stated, which is 'that we can serve God only'. Religious veneration, religious adoration, these things are for God only.

[≈ 18:00]

TurretinFan: And when we give them to anyone except for God we are in violation of the word of God and therefore in sin.

I'm not ready for cross examination.

Lane Chaplin: Okay, thank you for that Turretin[Fan] we will now have a cross examination with Mister Albrecht cross examining TurretinFan. You have three minutes you may begin when you are ready.

William Albrecht: Okay. My contention is that latria and dulia are two distinct words. I'm aware that you also agree with such, but you place a qualifier that dulia can never be used in a religious context towards mankind. Now, as such is the case,can you please explain to me why Galatians chapter five, verses thirteen or [?] fourteen, tells us to serve one another in love (using the the second person, plural form of douleuo). I believe love being the chief religious context of the whole New Testament; and this simply doesn't get more religious than this, Tur, being used in a religious context.

TurretinFan: Well, yes, I think the answer is that the 'loving our neighbor as our self' is fulfillment of the second table of the Law. And the example I gave in my last speech about the Good Samaritan with the example how someone could serve another person without it being in a religious context. Of course, if you make all of life, which should all be about obedience, if we should make all of life a religious context, means that the word 'religious' has lost its sense.

William Albrecht: I would agree with you, but it's clearly being used in a religious context in Galatians five verse thirteen, fourteen, at least that is what I would contend. I would... I would like to ask you another question. Your contention is also is that the word proskuneo cannot be used in a religious context towards mankind, because each time it is worship. Is that your contention?

TurretinFan: Well, with my contention with regard to proskuneo is that Jesus Himself said that we should only serve God, so that's the basis for my contention.

William Albrecht: So you would...

TurretinFan: But

William Albrecht: Ok, excuse me, excuse me...

TurretinFan: But, yes, I do understand the word, that word has a broad semantic range. So, for example it can mean to stoop, or to duck down, and to bow before someone. So you see some people bowing before kings, for example. And in Acts seven, seven (Acts 7:7), with which you're familiar, you see someone bowing before a centurion, to provide another example. It's possible for people to do this without it being involved in a religious context.

William Albrecht: Okay, well, how would you interpret one Chronicles twenty-nine, twenty [1 Chronicles 29:20)]? Which reads:

"[...]they bowed low and fell prostrate before the LORD and the king."

Is not the third person form of proskuneo used here?

And would you contend that that is not in a religious context?

TurretinFan: Well, there were a lot of "not"s in there, but the word proskuneo is used, the appropriate form of the word, as you described. But the, the question, the interesting thing, is that it is used equally of God and of the King. So, the first question I would want to know is whether God and the king there are two different people or if God is being described both as the LORD and as the King.

[≈ 21:30]

Lane Chaplin: Okay, this ends our second cross examination session. Mr. Albrecht you'll now have a four minute affirmative rebuttal. You may begin when you are ready.

[≈ 21:45]

William Albrecht: Alright, I think what we find here is, we find TurretinFan's, as well as anybody else who uses the arguments, in a bit of a bind here, because they've got to try to read away the plain meaning of Scripture. I've used Galatians chapter five verse thirteen to fourteen, [Galatians 5:13-14] which uses douleuo in a religious context. It shows us that we can serve one another in love; love being the chief religious context of the whole New Testament. It simply doesn't get any more religious than this. I would imagine love to be the most important Biblical concept of the Bible. We read in Matthew chapter twenty-two, verses thirty-six to forty [Matthew 22:36-40], that love is what encompasses the greatest commandments. And in Romans thirteen, nine to ten, [Romans 13:9-10], love is the fulfillment of the whole Law. So, it is a theme that cannot be escaped. It doesn't get any more religious than this. Even Galatians chapter five, verse six, [Galatians 5:6] tells us that the only thing that matters is faith working through love.

Moving on, I then posed one Chronicles chapter twenty-nine, twenty, [1 Chronicles 29:20] to TurretinFan, which, indeed, does use proskuneo here in a religious context. And what is most interesting about this passage is the clear evidence that the whole assembly falls to bow and worship God, but they also bow in (reverence/reference?) to the king. I'm not sure if TurretinFan actually read the passage, I'm sure he's read it before, he probably, maybe, didn't read it at this moment, because he erroneously, I don't know if he asserted or was questioning, whether the bowing down and the proskuneo was given to the LORD and the LORD was the King as well. Well, the fact of the matter is, the direct reading is in reference to the LORD and to the king. Therefore the proskuneo that is used here is used in a religious context towards a man.

Moving fourth I would simply disagree with lexicons and dictionaries that Turretin[Fan] basically asserts that they do not use the distinction that I am speaking of and I would suggest that he read those lexicons and dictionaries again, because they do speak (on/of/about) all of the different usages. So, I would disagree with him there and I would suggest that he read those that I had mentioned.

Turretin[Fan] also argues 'this distinction which I have shown is not Biblical, because of the fact that Catholics kneel before statues and light incense and candles' -- it is simply a caricature of the Catholic position to basically say that we have reduced all of these terms and the meanings to this kneeling down and lighting incense and candles -- it's simply much more than that. And those words that he said were nearly exactly the words that I've heard from other people use. It's an argument that's used over and over. The simple fact of the matter is douleuo is used in a religious context toward mankind and proskuneo is used in a religious context toward mankind as well. This is Biblical it can be shown in the Greek. And I, I believe if Turretin[Fan] cannot find a way to answer Galatians chapter five, verse thirteen to fourteen, [Galatians 5:13-14] away, or one Chronicles chapter twenty-nine, verse twenty, he is in a bit of a bind. There are, indeed, more passages that do use these terms and I believe that I can find more passages that use these terms in a religious context, but I'm particularly, I'm holding myself to use these terms at this moment. And I think if he can't... I truly believe Galatians chapter five, verse thirteen to fourteen, [Galatians 5:13-14] is a clear religious context. Therefore, I believe the definitions the Catholic church gives these two terms are, indeed, Biblical and I believe they are sound with the Christian faith.

[≈ 25:15]

Lane Chaplin: Okay, thank you Mister Albrecht. TurretinFan you now have seven minutes for a rebuttal.

[≈ 25.22]

[≈ 25.26]

TurretinFan: Alright, I will now try to sum up this debate and explain why I continue to believe that religious adoration and religious veneration should be given to God only. Albrecht keeps seeming to try to push the burden on me to prove that Scriptural point, which I've already made, that as Jesus has said that we should serve and worship God only. He seems to be pushing it back on me to show that there isn't a distinction. Of course, my position here is the negative; he is the affirmative and the initial burden of proof for the case, for this distinction, is on him. If he wants to use Scripture to prove his point -- and he relied on a few Scriptural verses in his last speech -- then its on him to show that those verses that he's relying on actually demonstrate the point he's trying to make.

Let's address the contentions he made. First, the contention from Galatians. He states: 'It doesn't get any more' ... 'that something doesn't get any more religious than love'. And that's interesting, but love should mark our whole life. I don't think Mister Albrecht disagrees. And, in fact, because love if the fulfillment of the Law, and our whole live must be a life of obedience to God, this would mean that our whole life was a religious context, and in short, the qualification that its a religious context is simply a meaningless qualification. But if Mister Albrecht is saying that, then it becomes clear why he doesn't see the Reformed position yet. The Reformed position is that the religious context has to do with, you know, things like church. It's maybe a little hard to put our fingers on it, if someones trying to tell us our whole life is a religious context, but I think that Mister Albrecht sees the difference between what he does in church and what he does at his work -- (or) at his office. In any event, we can move on from that, because his contention has just been very general. There's nothing in Galatians, the verse that he cited, that set out dulia in a religious context; it just sets it out in the context of life.

Moving on to the first Chronicles (1 Chronicles) passage. Mister Albrecht had cited first Chronicles twenty-nine, twenty, [1 Chronicles 29:20], but this verse doesn't help him much. Why not? Because, for one thing, there's no distinction made between latria and dulia there. It's not as though they give latria to God and dulia to the king. Even worse, for Mister Albrecht's position, the verse just reports that the people did this -- it doesn't condemn it -- it doesn't condone it -- it just reports it. So, even assuming that the verse said that the -- that king David was the king here -- that was being referenced -- and that they did bow down to king David, they did exactly the same thing they did to king David as they did to the LORD, which wouldn't support the idea of a distinction at all. It would simply point out that they were doing the same thing to both. The, of course, it is possible the people recognized the distinction and that the people were doing one thing to the king and another thing to God. It's very interesting that the Greek here uses a construction such that both the LORD and the king can be the same person; there's an article used before the LORD and there's and article used before the king, but it doesn't specify king David and it doesn't force it to be a reference to king David, so there's some ambiguity there -- it's not a black and white case. Look, this same construction using an article before both is, is found in John twenty, twenty-eight [John 20:28] where Thomas, where Thomas answers and says 'My LORD and my God' -- in that case, there's... it's not expressed in English, but the article is there before both "LORD" and "God." And so, although, of course, Thomas is talking about just one person. So, the fact that the word "and" is used there isn't inclusive. What's very interesting is the Vulgate -- of course, the Vulgate takes the position that they are two different people -- but the Vulgate adds in a word and (says/said) 'they bowed to God and then to the king' which suggests they were engaging in two different activities. But, nevertheless, as I already mentioned in my cross examination, bowing down before a king is one kind of respect that we can show that's different from respect in a religious context. It's unclear how Mister Albrecht believes that this religious context is applied to king David. As far as I know, there isn't any teaching in Aquinas that we are to give religious dulia to living, or excuse me, to non-glorified human beings. In fact, it's sort of unclear to me why either Galatians or first Chronicles [1 Chronicles] is being cited as an example of why would we, why we would give dulia to Mary or the Saints, because, of course, these are both examples of what were [?] being given to living people -- people in this life -- before they're glorified. David, in fact, is a sinful man and God wouldn't allow David to build the temple, but, apparently, if we understood the argument that's made from first Chronicles verse twenty-nine, twenty [1 Chronicles 29:20] -- it's being suggested that religious dulia is appropriate for such a sinful man. This doesn't seem to be fully consistent with the doctrines of Catholicism. It leaves me somewhat confused, but the bottom line is this: we haven't seen from Scripture a distinction where Scripture approves, or condones, the religious veneration of departed believers. It doesn't approve, or condone, the religious veneration of Mary. In fact, it doesn't provide even one example, in the whole of Scripture, of anyone giving religious veneration to Mary. It doesn't give even one example in all of Scripture of religious veneration being given to the Saints -- once they're departed from this life. Even if we would grant that Galatians permits religious veneration in this life, which is, which is not [inaudible] something [inaudible] say that all of our life, or to say that love is very important and it doesn't get an more religious than love, then we've shown that love is a requirement for all of our life. But, in any event, based on these illustrations from the verses that have been cited, I would respectfully submit that no case for a distinction between latria and dulia, in a religious context, has been established.

[≈ 32:37]

Lane Chaplin: Okay, thank you TurretinFan. Mister Albrecht you'll have the last rebuttal session and this will be four minutes you may begin when you're ready.

[≈ 32:47]

[≈ 32:49]

William Albrecht: Alright. In conclusion, we find that the Catholic claims are once again vindicated by Scripture. I wish we would have been able to delve into the early church, where I believe the Catholic ever so powerful also. But it was important that we were able to stick mainly to the Scriptures. We see that latria and dulia are two distinct words. What we also see that the usage of dulia in a religious context does not equal that of worship. The cold hard facts are there. The Bible distinguishes between latria and between dulia. Dulia can and is and always should be used in a worship context when referring to God. Latria, no doubt, is to be directed to God and to God alone. But dulia is also shown to be proper [?] towards mankind. Even if one sets up the false parameters of a religious context -- dulia is still offered to men. The same can be said of proskuneo as well. And to briefly touch upon something I, some comments that Turretin[Fan] made -- he says that Jesus does say that we should serve and worship God only. And that is also the Catholic position, which I have already shown in the Bible. Douleuo in Galatians chapter five, verse thirteen to fourteen, [Galatians 5:13-14] is used toward mankind -- it is in a religious context. And as far as me not understanding the Reformed position as Turretin[Fan] claims, I'd rather stick to the Biblical position, which is as I have already shown several times proskuneo and dulia are used toward mankind in a religious context. In one Chronicles twenty-nine, twenty, [1 Chronicles 29:20] TurretinFan briefly attempted to deal with it. He... He said this was intended -- that this did not deal with latria and dulia. Well, I was specifically dealing with the Greek term proskuneo, which is used in the Septuagint rendering of one Chronicles twenty-nine, twenty, [1 Chronicles 29:20] and I, indeed, showed how this term is used in a religious context. I would contend that Turretin[Fan] is incorrect about the Greek being clear -- clearly referencing somebody else; I think that the whole context is clear that this is in reference to the king. The passage in... [?] the passage is also mentioned in the Matthew Henry commentary -- pointed out that this is in reference to the God and to the king -- and the Matthew Henry commentary is far from a Catholic commentary. And I believe the passage that [?] TurretinFan brought up in John chapter twenty, verse twenty-eight, [John 20:28] where Thomas calls Christ his LORD and his God -- in the Greek we literally read and we are able to tell that he is calling Him his LORD and his God -- the LORD of him and the God of him. The Greek construct is completely different as I, I just looked at it right now -- and the passage in John is clear that this is in reference to Christ being his LORD and his God. Therefore, Turretin[fan] has shown that in order to try and answer away a religious context, as I have shown, he must try and answer away a passage or try to claim the passage has some ambiguity. But I believe clearly that one Chronicles twenty-nine, twenty, [1 Chronicles 29:20] is in clear reference to a religious context given to, to mankind as well. Someone would not be able to contend that proskuneo is never offered to anyone in a religious context. We would agree that proskuneo is never given to mankind in a worship sense -- ever -- it is not acceptable. But to claim that all religious context in the Bible deal with worship is simply plain silly. This is a religious context and the people are not worshiping the king in any sense whatsoever. They bow down before God and offer respect to the king. To me, it doesn't get any more of a religious context than this -- context-wise of course. So, it's important to understand the way a Catholic worships God and God alone and gives honor and respect to the Saints. No Saint usurps the role of God in the Catholic faith. And I believe this debate is very important, because it, if anything helps us understand our positions in a clearer fashion. And [?] any debate is profitable. And I would like to end by saying God bless and I really appreciate this debate and I think its been very helpful.

[≈ 36:38]

[≈ 36:40]

Lane Chaplin: Thank you for that Mister Albrecht. This now concludes the Latria-Dulia debate with Mister William Albrecht and TurretinFan of AOMin.org. Thank you Mister Albrecht and TurretinFan for taking the time to debate the issues today. My name is Lane Chaplin, thank you for listening.

[end @ 37:08]

*** TRANSCRIPT ENDS ***

Thanks very much to Lane and Matthew for their assistance, and to Mr. Albrecht for debating this important issue.

Enjoy! And may God be glorified!

-TurretinFan

2 comments:

gib said...

What is a religious context? Please provide a definition. Thanks.

Turretinfan said...

I think it's tough to provide a concise definition. If the thing is done in a church, it's probably a religious context, unless whatever it is that you are doing is something you'd do ordinarily. For example, just opening the door for someone at church is just incidental to the fact that it is a church. On the other hand, kissing an icon is something you specifically came to church to do.

It's probably tough to put one's finger on an exact definition of what a religious context is, but there are some things that are clearly inside, and some things that are clearly outside, any reasonable definition.

Plus, I think any normal person can look at a given situation and have a sense of whether what is going on is "religious stuff" or not - and for the most part get it right in terms of distinguishing religious from non-religious stuff.

-TurretinFan