In the following video, Dr. White and his Arabic tutor (a Christian who is a native speaker of Arabic) critique the alleged Arabic presented by Dr. Caner on a variety of occasions. Enjoy!
-TurretinFan
Friday, June 04, 2010
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37 comments:
FYI: In the first sentence, that should be "Dr. White", not "Dr. Caner".
:-)
LOL - thank you for the correction, fixed
Did you ever get my comment about the trinity? I can't seem to find it, and I was interested in your answer.
TulipWife: see this comment and the following comment
-TurretinFan
Turrentinfan I commend you and Dr. James White on the handling of the circumstances surrounding Dr. Caner. I have an idea of the heat that is being directed at those who believe with objective evidence that Dr. Caner has some honesty issues relating to aspects of his past. I am saddened by what looks like to me an ignoring of a serious problem with him. What I pray for is that Dr. Caner repents of his lies and proper action taken with him. I do understand that Christians sometimes sin but he is a position at a Christian Seminary / College. He has to be held more accountable than the laity due to that. What he does may have bad reflections of honest missionary work towards those of Islam. By God's grace I pray that those like Dr. White are not impacted by what Dr. Caner has done. Thank you for all the information you have placed on this blod on Dr. Caner.
An obvious "out" for Caner would be an appeal to the gift of utterance.
He could claim that, due to his gift, sometimes when he attempts to speak Arabic he speaks a message in tongues. This species of "Holy Ghost anointing" is not unheard of in Charismatic circles.
By taking this defense Dr. Caner could also authoritatively pronounce that Dr. White and his Arabic tutor clearly do not possess the gift of interpretation based on the contents of this video, and in this way he could kill two birds with one stone.
Just trying to help you out here, Ergun; think about it.
In Christ,
CD
To me this is some of the most disturbing stuff. This shows a deliberate intent to mislead people. This isn't a slight exaggeration of an event or experience this is intentionally misleading people to think you can do something that you are unable to do and doing it on multiple occasions.
In the pro-Caner blogging camp, the preferred response to the charges of fake Arabic from Ergun Caner seems to be, "There are many dialects of Arabic with very divergent pronunciations. To take issue with Dr. Caner's pronunciation is very petty. The charges of fake Arabic and fake Turkish from Dr. Caner have already been thoroughly debunked."
As they say, D'Nayle is not just a river in Egypt.
"charges of fake Arabic from Ergun Caner"
It was fake arabic he did. Dr. Caner did not use human language. It appears he did gibberish that is common in Pentecostal churches or what we find on TBN.
I think Caner just misspoke.
I would like to thank the people who put this material together. I think it's very brave and honest of you to do so.
I have watched some videos produced and circulated by Mr Caner ( pronounced djanner) and his fans and followers, including Liberty staff and students. I have to admit, I'm completely SHOCKED at the blatant pretense from many who no doubt knew this was happening and yet chose to be silent. I'm sure that in those meetings where he pretended to be speaking Arabic and other languages, there were people who spoke some of those languages including Arabic, Urdu and Persian ( in the case of Afghanistan). Why didn't those people speak out? Maybe they were scared of what might happen to them?
The fact is, my friends, that Mr Caner is a FRAUD of the biggest proportions. It worries me, though, many of you here know that is to be the case, but you too seem to be scared of calling him as such. This is NOT about being harsh or anything of the sort. It is about righteous indignation and rejection of the perpetration of falsehood. I believe Mr Ergun Caner should be condemned and confronted in the strongest possible manner. Not only because he is using falsehoods and saying things he doesn't believe or practice in truth, but also by promoting hatred and warmongering based on his lies and fabrications. Mr Caner has had access to some of the highest authorities and decision makers in the country to promote wars against Muslims and Arabs in general. Though, there is room for different opinion in the realm of free speech and all that, it is very clear, there is NOTHING about his case that's related to free speech. It is a scam to pretend to be someone you aren't. This is not like he has some form of gender disorientation syndrome and dresses up a pink frock at home to have "fun" behind his closed doors! This is a "in your face show", a public persona he disguised himself in,launching a tirade of well organized and very calculated assaults on Muslims, using his ignorance and exploiting both the double standards, stupidity and the evil in the hearts of his audiences to spread falsehood and promote racism and hatred.
Mr Caner is a legal case and should be treated as such. This has been allowed to go beyond the pulpits and beyond prayer meetings, and charismatic charades of ignorance. It has the potential of turning out to be a high profile criminal case, and it's up to you if you want to deal with this, for whether you believe it or not, accept it or not, it does implicate you all. Caner speaks on your behalf. What are you going to do about it?
"It has the potential of turning out to be a high profile criminal case, and it's up to you if you want to deal with this, for whether you believe it or not, accept it or not, it does implicate you all. "
The lies that Dr. Caner are not criminal under law. What he did was committed the sin of lying though. And action must be taken againist him at the Seminary / College where he is appointed at. Even then the actions in their dealing with him is not criminal. It has no implications againist Christianity as a whole. Otherwise one is using the old " guilt by assocation " ploy. That is not a valid standard to use againist people.
"Caner speaks on your behalf. What are you going to do about it?"
He does not speak on my behalf. My belief in Christianity does not stand or fall on Dr. Caner. My Christian faith is in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ who died for my sins and raised from the dead according to Scripture. I have condemned the lies he has done and prayed for him to repent of it.
I ran this video by some of my native Arabic speaking friends and friends that are Persian who grew up under Islam. I've been to Baghdad with the Military and the Iraqi people I met and worked with are humble and are very religious (there is no separation of church and state, religion is part of everything).
My friends, wouldn't comment on the video. They wouldn't say much of anything and I know them well enough to know they just don't want to speak bad of a person in such a position but they wouldn't say the charges are false either.
If you watch J. White's tutor, his body language suggests he wasn't entirely comfortable being on film and he wouldn't say much negative either.
My friends are very aware of who E. Caner is and what his claims are. I'm sure many around here (I live in Lynchburg) have tried to use E. Caner's testimony and material to reach them for Christ since they grew up under Islam.
Some were reared in Iraq and Iran, they don't speak out about officials or they or their family members end up missing. That mind set doesn't appear to leave even though they have lived in the US for many years. I think it is these cultural differences that keeps those that have truly been brought up under Islam (you don't have the freedom of speech) in repressive countries not to boldly speak out about some of the things E. Caner has done. But yet E. Caner claims that he is constantly attacked by Muslims. Of all the ones that I know that also know anything about E. Caner ... they won't go into detail saying anything bad about him other than to say his claims are false and he is pretending.
They have told me however that a real Christian in his position wouldn't be doing the things he does. And they have told me before that lots of people will turn away from Christianity because of E. Caner. Pretty sobering.
I know I myself am angry seeing the picture of E. Caner standing before a room full of Marines that were about to be deployed in harms way. I remember the times when I was deployed, the Military would bring in US Citizens that were from Iraq and we would go through cultural awareness training (along with Arabic training) by those that knew the culture and language and it burns me up to know E. Caner appears to have been one to do the same thing even though he apparently can't speak the language and doesn't have first hand knowledge of the culture and yet he is trying to equip these Marines that are about to put their life on the line.
Regards,
Brian
Brian,
Since you raised that matter of Dr. White's tutor's demeanor in the clip above, while watching and listening to it I noticed his eyes moving back and forth continually. I want to put over probably a stupid guess as to why that was, hoping of course that it is a correct guess, so as not to be considered more stupid than I am? :)
Did you notice how his eyes moved all during the clip?
Sometimes he would focus and look right at Dr. White when Dr. White was talking directly to him. Most of the time though he was looking at the same things Dr. White was and his eyes would shift quickly one way and another. Sometimes I got the sense others were in the room during this event?
But as for my conclusion, here is my guess as to why his eyes moved the way they did. Could it be because we read and write English from left to right and they read and write Arabic from right to left?
I have plenty of members of my Church who have gone to foreign countries to start church works sent out from here. Some, when they come back to the mother church, here where they were sent from and we give them opportunity to share before the body of Believers gathered to hear, what the Lord has done for them and is doing and what the future plans are, somethings, they will have to stop and think what the right "English" word or phrase is that they want to speak because they hadn't spoken English much at all since going to their respective mission.
Could it be that as the tutor was reading, his mind was thinking first in Arabic, right to left and then the translation in English, left to right and that is what we are seeing with him mentally doing reflected by the way his eyes were acting in the clip?
I know that I have seen something not nearly as obvious when I have been with some of my Jewish friends both in Belgium and Israel.
The eye movement was a bit distracting. My recollection is that Dr. White has a multiple monitor set-up. So, my guess is that the tutor probably did not know where he was supposed to be looking. That's just a guess, but I don't see where anyone else could be hiding in the room, unless they were standing on top of the desk between the camera and the wall.
That's just a guess, but I don't see where anyone else could be hiding in the room, unless they were standing on top of the desk between the camera and the wall.
That comment just goes to show how little you understand about Lane Chaplin's ninja assassin cloaking skills. If you watch very closely you can see Lane somersault through the room holding a grab bag of Doritos at the 19:49 mark.
A small piece of toasted nacho cheesy goodness falls just out of frame catching Dr. White's eyes for the briefest of moments.
In Him,
CD
natamllc,
I only made reference to his body language and what he said and how he said it to draw a comparison of how my friends who grew up under Islam react when I run questions regarding the Caner situation by them. The tutor, like my friends, are careful to not disrespect anyone.
I was simply pointing out a cultural difference that I've observed over the years.
Since Turkey is more secular and western'ish, my friends from Turkey tend to be more sarcastic and vocal about questioning things ... my Iraq, Iran friends aren't that way (not saying that none are just speaking of the sample size I've been in contact with ... they are much more guarded). Same with the Iraqi's I met and worked with in Baghdad and other parts of the country.
I really have a heart for the Iraqi people after living there for a while. In the "Green Zone", I got a healthy dose of what the population goes through with the sectarian violence and also how Israel must feel (plus I have family that are missionaries in Haifa) with the thousands of rockets being lobbed on them every year and how metered their response is.
CD,
now why did you have to say that?
Now you have my curiosity fluttering!
Shame on you!
But, as I recall, there was one brief moment when I thought I did see someone far behind them walk past a doorway?
I suppose this office is inside his house? Or it seems to me that it is??
Butch, I agree with you.
"butch", huh?
geeesh, sorry Brian!
Brian, I agree with you!!
I think you'll find the eye movement thing is a medical condition called physiologic nystagmus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiologic_nystagmus
Is it possible to take back my 'stupid' guess?
Michael: "I think you'll find the eye movement thing is a medical condition called physiologic nystagmus."
Medically, physiologically, it sounds good to me! :)
Oh, and I guess because of the doritos remarks I went back and looked at the clip again and noticed that what I thought was a person moving in the background behind Dr. White turns out to be his unusual lamp doing that funny stuff inside it all lit up!
Maybe I need to have my eyes examined as well as my head?
The classic (and very cool!) lava lamp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava_lamp
People: Have has anyone noticed this Zionist PROPAGANDIST cleverly sneaking in Zionist theology as he goes along? I bet he's been sent by Caner or his friends!
I can't believe people like this guy exist. You should let "missionary work" WORK in your own life first, before you pretend to be something you are NOT.
"Mr Caner has had access to some of the highest authorities and decision makers in the country to promote wars against Muslims and Arabs in general."
Caner is advising Obama? Could you be specific about the US decision makers Caner has influence over?
" Though, there is room for different opinion in the realm of free speech and all that, it is very clear, there is NOTHING about his case that's related to free speech. It is a scam to pretend to be someone you aren't. This is not like he has some form of gender disorientation syndrome and dresses up a pink frock at home to have "fun" behind his closed doors!"
Huh? There is nothing related to this case about Free Speech? Are you speaking to American civil law or the deportment of a Christian leader? And what does the pink frock have to do with this or free speech?
" This is a "in your face show", a public persona he disguised himself in,launching a tirade of well organized and very calculated assaults on Muslims, using his ignorance and exploiting both the double standards, stupidity and the evil in the hearts of his audiences to spread falsehood and promote racism and hatred."
Well organized? He cannot even get his own lies straight!
"Mr Caner is a legal case and should be treated as such. This has been allowed to go beyond the pulpits and beyond prayer meetings, and charismatic charades of ignorance. It has the potential of turning out to be a high profile criminal case, and it's up to you if you want to deal with this, for whether you believe it or not, accept it or not, it does implicate you all."
You are obviously not familiar with American civil law. You must have it confused with the laws of some of the more repressive Islamic countries.
" Caner speaks on your behalf. What are you going to do about it?"
You simply do not understand America or Christianity to make that statement. I suppose you think Mark Driscoll speaks for me. Jimmy Swaggert? Jeremiah Wright?
Caner is in deep sin and denial. He should be fired and hopefully repent but you sound like you want him put in prison or perhaps his tongue cut out or some other type of Islamic style punishment.
Listen you moron and HYPOCRITE, you come whining to me about issues you can't begin to have a clue about and then accuse me of "wanting to cut his tongue off"? . Where did I say that you LYING idiot?
You are a brainwashed dimwit and you don't have what it takes to understand such issues.
Hi,
I am the brainwashed dimwit. Are you the same anonymous as the one who mentioned Zionist Propaganda in all caps, earlier?
I was just astonished that you think Caner is committing a civil crime. Free speech covers not only liars but jerks,to boot.
Sad, I know. But the alternative is worse.
There is some redress for slander or yelling fire in a crowded theatre.
And think about it, you have the freedom to call me a brainwashed dimwit moron on the internet. Ain't freedom great?
Have a nice evening,
The Moron brainwashed dimwit
"Well organized? He cannot even get his own lies straight!"
That about made me spew my drink through my nose! Thanks for the laugh.
Hutchman,
"That about made me spew my drink through my nose! Thanks for the laugh."
Did it make your bowels loose too and did you soil yourself? It sounds as if you did!
Don't try your games, it's very obvious that your being a racist Zionist from the same gang as Caner himself is what's motivating you.
Who exactly is being accused of "Zionism" and what exactly constitutes "Zionism"?
All of these "Anonymous" posts are hard to figure out who is responding to what.
Are you saying I'm a Zionist because of my statement that I have family in Israel and spent time in the Green Zone and have an idea of what it must be like for them to have thousands of rockets etc. come at them in a year?
I guess I'm missing something here. Especially how this all relates to the situation at hand which is the impact E. Caner's actions will have on Christianity. Not that I'm so worried about it ... His Will (and lest I be mistaken, the "Him" I'm referring to is my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) will be done even if the rocks and trees have to cry out.
As a Muslim, I dismissed Caner as a deviant as soon as I began watching Mokhan's vids.
I do appreciate White going to the trouble of double checking but all this has left White in a sticky position.
I wonder how much this will impact on Emir Caner, perhaps Emir will "get away with it".
Peace
Perhaps someone will do more detailed research on Emir. From the little I've seen, Emir's claims seem to be much less grandiose. Furthermore, I cannot recall him try to make it appear that he was speaking Arabic, beyond an occasional word.
@Turretinfan,
Of course, it would be grossly unfair to prosecute Emir for simply being Ergun's brother.I, too, would encourage further investigation into Emir.
These are trying times for the ministries. I and other Muslims look forward to the outcome of the investigation.
Perhaps this saga will bring about more accountability and a desire for accuracy within ministries which focus on evangelising to Muslims.
In my time analyzing Muslim-
Christian apologetics I have personally come accross some utter disingenuous practice within ministries. The saddest part is that this continues even within some of the more established ministries as we speak.
Mr. Snow:
One thing that would be helpful for me would be if a Muslim would take the time to go through the Caner brothers' book, Unveiling Islam, and respond to the substance of its representation of Islam.
What I mean is this: there are some obvious question marks over the biographical portion of the book, and I'm aware that certain parts of the book are viewed as being defamatory of Mohammed.
Aside from that, though, I have not seen any Muslim response to this best-selling book. Such a response could serve to spark a dialog or even debate that would permit seekers of truth to see whether Islam or Biblical Christianity has the better claim to represent the truth.
What do you think?
-TurretinFan
@Turretinfan
It is a good idea...however, I'm not too sure if somebody has not already gone through it.
As youcan imagine, we have alot of misleading propaganda pieces designed to attack Islam.
This year I have two books to go through (both by evangelists similar in style to Caner)
If no other Muslim has gone through Caner's book then I will, god willing (inshaAllah)
At the moment I have my hands full with James White, his friend(Sam Shamoun) and the book refutations
Peace
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