That kind of comment really seems to put Geisler in a completely different league from someone like Dr. John Ankerburg, whose statements seem to reflect him being misled by the Caners:
I have known Ergun Caner for nearly a decade. I am disheartened by the recent attacks upon his integrity and character. I ... believe his personal testimony to be completely true. Otherwise, I would not have allowed him to broadcast his story to the millions of viewers that tune in to my program across the globe. ... For someone to attack Ergun’s selfless sacrifice, especially since they malign his character without any substantiation, is both unchristian and unbiblical. Count me among the many who will stand with Ergun Caner ... .(source)(emphasis added)
At least Dr. Ankerburg can say now that he was honestly mistaken and unware of the substantiation, and we hope he will say that. On the other hand, what fig leaf can Dr. Geisler hide behind? How can he seriously claim that Dr. Caner was exonerated?
-TurretinFan
26 comments:
Someone forgot the first rule of holes--stop digging.
Below is a link to a possible explanation that was in a comment on Rev. Burleson's blog. Look down the list of faculty.
http://veritasseminary.com/edu/pages/faculty--staff.php
This is sad, because, as I pointed out in channel, Geisler and Abdul Saleeb's book, Answering Islam, was very good, except the section on "extreme Determinism", that Colin Smith analyzed at www.aomin.org
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1853
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1866
The sad part is that now, Muslims have more reasons to discount and dismiss that book. (because of Geisler's defense of Caner) Even though it is evidentialist in approach, most of the information is good information. (as far as I can tell)
Geisler made a mistake calling Omar Khayyam an Arabian poet. (he was Iranian/Persian) (p. 145), but aside from his disdain for Calvinism and that; the book used to be the main Evangelical book on the Apologetic Issues dealing with Islam.
My theory isn't just that Mr. Geisler and Mr. Caner have business dealings.
I would assume that Mr. Geisler is too busy to read up on the source material and that he and Mr. Caner have discussed these matters. So Mr. Geisler is entirely comfortable that Mr. Caner has told him the truth. I wouldn't be surprised if the "exonerated" spin is coming from Mr. Caner himself.
Other than some lamely-worded, now removed (retracted?), note from Mr Caner earlier this year, we have public silence on this except suggestions from his students that he is claiming to be 'innocent.'
So it is not a stretch to presume that he is proclaiming his innocence beyond his students and also to his colleagues. And if you have a friendship with Mr. Caner, who would you trust first --- a meanie like James White or your pal Butch? er... Ergun er... Michael er...Ergun Mehmet er... Ergun Mehmet Giovanni... or well you know.
Additionally, I would presume that Mr. Geisler is aware of the lambasting he took on Mr. White's show a few months ago as Mr. White tore through his "Why I'm not a [straw man] Calvinist" sermon. That, plus prior probable rancor with the Chosen But Free response mean that Mr. Geisler would have additional reason to instinctively distrust anything coming from James White.
Just some random chit-chat. Wish Mr. Geisler would show a little more command of these issues before such broad declarations. But alas...
I don't know how the facts could be any clearer to the objective, dispassionate observer.
Here's how I see it:
Caner lied repeatedly in public.
Caner's public lies were cataloged and publicly reported in the blogosphere.
LU ridiculed and decried the blogosphere reports, sliming the messengers and obstinately refusing to check the facts for themselves.
The mountain of evidence continued growing, and continued to be duly reported in the blogosphere.
The media picked up the story and suddenly LU is in full-tilt spin mode conducting PR damage control.
LU mounts an inquiry into the facts.
Presumably Caner admits [at least some of] his lies to the LU investigative body.
LU demotes Caner and issues a quick media blurb late on Friday evening to minimize coverage.
Evidence comes forth that Caner continues to proclaim his innocence to his students.
Caner presumably continues to maintain his innocence to his inner circle.
Caner has yet to issue any sort of public apology for his public lies.
Caner has yet to demonstrate any level of public repentance for his public lies.
Caner's most ardent supporters are still attempting to kill the messengers.
Whatever this looks like, it doesn't look like Biblical repentence or discipline.
Truth should be paramount to Christians, but sadly worldly pragmatism is the modern Ba'al to which many professing believers bow the knee.
In Christ,
CD
P.S. - TF, don't hold your breath for any apologies.
I can't remember if you were the one who looked at old erguncaner.com info on archive.org, but I thought this copy of his speaking/interview schedule from 2004 might open an avenue for finding more Caner info.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041010161930/www.erguncaner.com/Schedule.htm
From that site:
MEDIA INTERVIEWS SAMPLE- over 400 interviews in the past three years
NATIONAL TELEVISION
€ The John Ankerberg Show (8 shows)
€ Old Time Gospel Hour (5 shows in 2003-2004)
€ 700 Club (three times in 2001-2003)
€ SBC Family NET (At Home Live, May 2002)
€ Zola Levitt Live (2002-2004)
€ Celebration on DaySTAR (four times)
€ Listen America with Jerry Falwell (24 Sept 1999)
€ CNN National (April 20-22, 1999)
€ BBC Canada
€ FOX News (numerous 2002-2004)
NATIONAL RADIO
€ Focus on the Family Radio
€ For Faith and Family w/Richard Land (6 times)
€ Janet Parshall’s AMERICA 910 times)
€ Hope for the Heart with June Hunt
€ Point with Marlin Maddux
€ Open Line (Moody Radio)
€ Radio Bible Class Radio
From that site cont.:
NATIONAL AND STATE CONVENTIONS AND CONFERENCES SAMPLE
SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION ADDRESSES
€ 2003 SBC Pastors’ Conference (Phoenix, AR)
€ 2004 SBC Pastors’ Conference (Indianapolis, IN)
STATE CONVENTION SERMONS
€ Southern Baptist Convention of Virginia (2001, 2004)
€ West Virginia Baptist Convention (2004)
€ Baptist Convention of New Mexico (2004)
€ Tennessee Baptist Convention (2004)
€ Kentucky Baptist Convention (2004)
€ California Baptist Convention (2004)
€ Southern Baptist Convention of Ohio (2003)
€ Southern Baptist of Texas Convention (2003, 2004)
€ Colorado Baptist General Convention (2001, 2002)
EVANGELICAL CONFERENCES
€ Christian Booksellers Assoc. National Conference (2002-2004)
€ Salem National Radio Conference (2002)
€ Baptist General Conference Edgren Fellowship
€ Evangelical Christian Publishers Conference
€ Good News for Israel Banquet (Minnesota)
€ Zola Levitt Ministries (Texas)
€ National Apologetics Conference (Charlotte 2004)
€ Seattle Apologetics Conference (Washington 2004)
YOUTH CONFERENCES
€ WINTERFEST Youth (Virginia 2003-2004)
€ HOT HEARTS Youth (Texas 2003-2004)
€ GO TELL Camps (2004)
€ FBC Woodstock Youth Camp (May 2004)
€ HEARTS AFIRE (TN 2004)
APOLOGETICS CONFERENCES
€ Real Evangelism Conferences (All in 2003-2004)
€ Ohio Valley Bible Jubilee (five times)
€ Middlecreek Bible Conference (Pennsylvania)
€ Dallas Advocacy Conference (Libya)
€ Pigeon Forge Christmas Conference (2004)
€ Alpha International Conference (June 2004
UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES- SAMPLE- Have spoken at 35 colleges in debates
€ Southeastern Bapt. Seminary Chapel (Oct 2002)
€ Liberty University Convocations (2002-2004)
€ Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (2003)
€ Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (2003)
€ The Master’s College Chapel (2003)
€ The Criswell College Chapels (2001-2003)
€ University of Southern Florida Campus Fellowship (2003)
€ LeTourneau University (TX 2003)
SAMPLE: CHURCH SERMONS – preached in over 200 churches in 2002-2004
€ First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas
€ First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida
€ First Baptist Church of Snellville, Georgia
€ First Baptist Church of Springdale, Arkansas
€ Bellevue Baptist Church of Memphis, Tennessee
€ Church of the Hills of San Jose, California
€ Metropolitan Baptist Church of Houston, Texas
€ Two Rivers Baptist Church of Nashville, TN
€ Castle Hills Baptist Church of San Antonio, TX
€ Green Acres Baptist Church of Tyler, Texas
€ First Baptist Church of Woodstock, GA
€ First Family Church (Kansas City, KS)
ACADEMIC ADDRESSES
“Quest for the Hysterical Jesus.” Address at the annual Evangelical Theological Society in Atlanta, Georgia, November 19, 2003.
“Experiencing Allah.” Address at the annual Evangelical Theological Society in Toronto, Canada, November 20, 2002.
“Openness of God Forum.” Panel address at the annual SW Regional Evangelical Theological Society in Dallas, Texas, March 8, 2002.
“The Doctrine of Holy War in the Islamic Hadith.” Address at the annual Evangelical Theological Society in Colorado Springs, Colorado, November 15, 2001.
“The Most Moved Movement: An Historic Review of the Precursors of Openness Theology.” Address at the annual Evangelical Theological Society in Colorado Springs, Colorado, November 16, 2001.
“Bellum Sacrum: Christian Jihad: An Examination of Crusade,” Address at the annual SE Regional Evangelical Theological Society in Longview, Texas, March 9, 2001.
“Evangelical Response to Jean-Francois Lyotard.” Address at the annual Southeastern Regional Evangelical Theological Society in Louisville, Kentucky, March 24, 1994.
Jay,
with a schedule like that one wonders why there isn't more hot air?
Reminds me of these verses and pondering them, I tremble:::>
Ecc 5:1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil.
Ecc 5:2 Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few.
Ecc 5:3 For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words.
If we were to convert all the "talking" the outline implies into a mathematical equation it should go something like this based on these verses too:
Jas 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;
Jas 1:20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
and
Jas 3:5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind,
Jas 3:8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.
Jas 3:10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
Jas 3:11 Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water?
[One third speaking, two thirds listening]= one third of a three year period, two thirds of the time for study, family, teaching and other duty work as President and Dean of LUBTS!
That doesn't seem to be possible to have that one third/two thirds ratio and have a normal Christian life in Christ?
This might be the reason he became fast and loose with personal details in his talks? He was speaking far more or twice as much as he was listening??
In any event, there is culpability and complicity here with others? His handlers surely must have been ignoring him and not holding him accountable to the High Standards of the positions he held?
And as an object lesson for any who desire the office of bishop, these words should not stop ringing in the inner spiritual ears:::>
Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
This schedule was shown on his site, from what I can find on archive.org, several years.
The site never updated the list or gave a schedule of upcoming engagements "due to security reasons."
Jay,
what is that suppose to mean:
"The site never updated the list or gave a schedule of upcoming engagements "due to security reasons."?"
Was there death threats on his life by that time so he had to have a security detail? Is that what that is suppose to mean?
Allegedly there have been death threats.
I guess. That may be true or false. We will, I'm sure, never know.
This is what the site says on the October 24, 2004 - Schedule page:
"Dr. Caner's Speaking Schedule
The following are previous places at which Dr. Caner has spoken.
Due to security issues, we cannot publish our speaking calendar, but we can give you a summary of some of the more prominent events at which I have spoken"
This is especially interesting. Here are some of the "debates."
UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES- SAMPLE- Have spoken at 35 colleges in debates
€ Southeastern Bapt. Seminary Chapel (Oct 2002)
€ Liberty University Convocations (2002-2004)
€ Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (2003)
€ Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (2003)
€ The Master’s College Chapel (2003)
€ The Criswell College Chapels (2001-2003)
€ University of Southern Florida Campus Fellowship (2003)
€ LeTourneau University (TX 2003)
You can also find the info here:
http://www.erguncaner.com/home/schedule/events.php
I just didn't know if anyone had seen it.
Amen! Nicely put Corem Deo re: "I don't know how the facts could be any clearer to the objective, dispassionate observer. ..."
An apology has a "I'm sorry I got caught" connotation.
I haven't see any evidence of repentance or brokenness either.
Luke 13:3 (English Standard Version)
3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 24:47 (English Standard Version)
47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
I am reminded by this situation of my own sinful nature and how dependent I (we) am (are) on the Savior! May the Lord move us all a little further down the road of Sanctification.
Regards,
Brian
The Master's Pulpit has this:
Speaker: Dr. Ergun Caner
2003
Political Correctness in the Church (4/2/2003)
Dr. Ergun Caner | 2003 | 43m 50s | Acts 17:16-31
Is it a debate?
Hmmm, Alpha International Conference was at my church. I've thought a time or two of pulling the tape to re-listen but I'm sure it would only reveal more of the same. I think the evidence is already overwhelming for anyone honest enough to consider it.
I'm not aware of Ergun ever having a security detail. The late Dr. Falwell had periods of time where he had security, especially during the Clinton years. The Falwell mansion also has high concrete walls all the way around it.
Regards,
Brian
Allegedly there have been factual statements, but as it turns out they were just self-contradictory misstatements of facts that Geisler knows all about. Funny thing how delusions can be shared experiences. I mean God will send them strong delusion so that they will believe the lie right? Since Geisler and Caner call that will-rape and don't believe that is possible, at least for them, it is only possible the whole world is is wrong and they're both right.
But one wonders... if Caner was self-contradictory, then maybe he made death threats on himself? That would account for the slurred speech that turned out not to be a Middle-eastern tongue. Perhaps, and I am just guessing, he was channeling a self-destructive spirit and all that jibberish was a Satanic toungue threating to kill... who knows? Anything is possible in a world of imagination.
Isn't there a verse about that somewhere, something like a man who fantasizes will come to proverty? Then again, we have a witness that Ergun was just a victim. Perhaps someone drugged him. That would explain alot. Or, as I said, the whole world drank strong drink and the T-totalling LUites are the only ones with their wits about them.
I think Dr. White ought to rename his bubble-lamp Ergun. Turn it on, let it heat up, and you never know what shape reality will take on.
I believe the Arabic word for contradictory statements of fact is "SWAN"
This would explain two matters at once.
(to the Arabic reader about to reply -- the above is a lame joke based on the videos by Mr. Khan)
Off topic and I apologize in advance, but I am officially the 100th person to follow your blog. (I've been waiting for a good #) I may have been the first as you transitioned from C.com to this but I am so glad you made the move. This forum gives you the opportunity to speak your mind without getting banned.
I also followed theojunkie and sad that he stopped his blog. I hope all is well with him...if you have heard from him or know of any updates please let me know.
Zog
News Flash:
CANER REPENTS PUBLICLY!
See link:
http://www.christiantoday.co.kr/view.htm?id=209442
Sadly, that's not what the post says.
At the start of this discussion, I think that few of EC's "accusers" had any personal feelings about him. I know that I did not. He was simply a fellow (in a position of high status and trust) who had obviously distorted his life history. I regarded this situation as inappropriate and occasionally pointed out some issue or other. As time has passed and the extent of the distortion has become more apparent, my feelings toward EC have become better defined--and much more negative.
His "defenders" are significantly responsible for this. EC's "defenders" (almost) uniformly have attacked the messenger. They have done this with some of the most vicious words I have seen used on the Internet. I cannot recall anyone who defended EC doing so based on the information that is available. Some have pleaded for “innocent until proven guilty—and then disappeared now that the guilty verdict has come back. Some have said that we should wait for the LU report—and claimed that it “exonerated” EC. Some have "hypothesized" excuses for some of the statements—and have failed to produce documentation for their hypotheses. But the largest group by far has simply attacked the people who feel that EC needs to do something because much of his telling of his life story appears to be a fable.
The obvious conclusion is that EC made up things that improved his street credibility regarding Islam--this is his "Baptist street” credibility. LU decided that these lies mattered--but not so much. Norman Geisler decided that it did not matter at all--and had not even occurred. John Ankerberg saw and heard no evil—in fact he saw and heard nothing on this subject. We now have “too much information” about all of these.
The only thing that I personally have gained from all this is a lot of knowledge about both people in general and also about specific individuals. I’m ready to move on—and will do so as soon as the “defenders” stop trying to defend the indefensible. It may be a while.
This comment has been left on several threads.
well said Bennett, I didn't know who Caner was before this whole incident (i.e. Caner backing out of a debate with J. White).
My only hope is that Mr. Caner loves Jesus (who is Truth) more because of what has happened.
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