Pope Boniface VIII, in Unam Sanctam, stated: “Now, therefore, we declare, say, define, and pronounce that for every human creature it is altogether necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff.”
Scripture, in contrast, gives universal jurisdiction to Christ alone: “the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords” (1 Timothy 6:15) and the Psalmist declares: “Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet” (Psalm 8:6) which the Apostle tells us plainly refers to Christ: “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church” (Ephesians 1:22).
Saturday, October 31, 2009
Let Hans Kung Explain ...
... why the papal attempt to cause schism within Anglicanism is likely to undermine Rome's ecumenical attempts (link). I don't endorse or even like Kung. He's a Roman Catholic priest, whose authority to teach theology has been revoked by the Vatican (as of 1979, I believe). Back in the 60's he used to work with Joseph Ratzinger, who is now the pope of Rome, though plainly the two have parted ways in certain respects. Kung is considered a theological "liberal" in Roman Catholicism today. His area of specialty: ecumenical theology.
His view of Christianity is far too broad. Christianity is to be defined by the gospel as preached by Jesus and the apostles: a gospel of repentance from sin and trust for salvation in Christ alone.
Kung's complaints are somewhat revealing, however. They demonstrate the fact that, for Rome, unity with those she considers "other Christians" must always be subservient to her goal of maintaining primacy over the church.
Kung states: "Evidently, the papal primacy – which Pope Paul VI admitted was the greatest stumbling block to the unity of the churches – does not function as the 'rock of unity'."
-TurretinFan
His view of Christianity is far too broad. Christianity is to be defined by the gospel as preached by Jesus and the apostles: a gospel of repentance from sin and trust for salvation in Christ alone.
Kung's complaints are somewhat revealing, however. They demonstrate the fact that, for Rome, unity with those she considers "other Christians" must always be subservient to her goal of maintaining primacy over the church.
Kung states: "Evidently, the papal primacy – which Pope Paul VI admitted was the greatest stumbling block to the unity of the churches – does not function as the 'rock of unity'."
-TurretinFan
Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 4
I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's response to my quotation from Irenaeus. Mr. Bellisario has put my words in italics, and I have attempted to reproduce them as he provided them, within the quotation box below. His own words are (for the most part) in the plain font:
1) There is a fair amount of chaff in this particular segment of Mr. Bellisario's response. I'll just identify the comments that add nothing to his discussion, and address them as a group:
a) Then Turretin Fan turns to butcher the words of Saint Irenaeus.
b) One has to wonder when this guy will stop.
c) Many arguments at his disposal? Many weak arguments. What does this prove?
d) A flimsy flam for sure.
I think it should be apparent that these arguments require no substantive response since they make no merit-based claim. Thankfully, Mr. Bellisario does make a few arguments that go beyond simple rhetoric.
2) "We all have to ask ourselves who the blind one is? The one who reads the Scriptures from within the Church or outside of it."
It may simply be that this is another one of Bellisario's colorful rhetorical flourishes. I'm trying to give Mr. Bellisario the benefit of the doubt here, though. Who is the blind one according to Irenaeus? It is the person who refuses to believe the clear, unambiguous, and harmonious teachings of the "entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels." Nothing about refusing to interpret them within "the Church" or outside of it. "The Church" doesn't even into the point that Irenaeus is making. In fact, quite the opposite is the case. Irenaeus' point is that those writings ("the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels") speak "clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously" and that you don't need special qualifications ("by all") for this purpose. Irenaeus explains away the objection of those who misinterpret by blaming those people: not the Scriptures.
3) "Also once again Saint Irenaeus lived in the middle of the second century, which did not possess a universal New Testament text."
Actually, Irenaeus is thought to have died at the beginning of the third century (about A.D. 202). I've addressed the referenced ("once again") mistaken concept regarding the canon in the first instance in which Mr. Bellisario raised it. His objection here has a slightly different twist, though. Rather than just claim that Irenaeus didn't know what the canon was, he claims that Irenaeus did not possess a "universal New Testament text."
a) This is a strange objection. So what if he did not have a complete copy of the New Testament? Irenaeus explicitly states that the gospels speak "clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously" regarding at least certain important things. Unless Mr. Bellisario is sticking with his straw man that our position is that everything in Scripture has to be perspicuous, it is odd for Mr. Bellisario to complain that Irenaeus had an incomplete New Testament.
b) It should be fairly apparent that Mr. Bellisario is just speculating regarding what Irenaeus did or didn't have. All the books of the Bible had already been written over a generation before Irenaeus was born. Furthermore, Irenaeus specifically wrote against Marcion, explaining that the number of Gospels was exactly four:
Of course, just because Irenaeus somehow knew the number of gospels over a hundred years before Athanasius or the councils of Hippo and Carthage and a thousand years before Trent may not seem like proof enough that one doesn't need an authoritative ecumenical council in order to identify the Scriptures.
c) I don't (right now, at any rate) have time or interest in tracking down precisely which Scriptures were quoted by which of the apostolic fathers. Suffice that in the Schaff patrology, first volume of the Ante-Niceaen fathers (ANF1), the Scripture index contains quotations from all of the books of the Bible except:
Ruth
Ezra
Nehemiah
Obediah
Nahum
(and for those interested, Schaff also lists quotations from Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Baruch, Susanna, and Sirach)
Based on this Scripture index, all of the New Testament books are quoted from (or alluded to) by the combination of the apostolic fathers, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeaus (Irenaeus being chronologically last) (link to index). So, one wonders what makes Bellisario think that Irenaeus didn't have the whole New Testament? He doesn't tell us why he thinks that. (Addendum, Schaff includes an Irenaeus-specific index. In that one, there is a quotation, reference or allusion by Irenaeus to all the books of the New Testament except Philemon and 3 John, and to the Old Testament books except those identified above, and further 1&2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Ecclesiastes, Zephaniah, and Haggai.)
4) "So it is obvious that this Saint was not referring to the method of Scripture Alone as Turretin Fan understands it to be. It is impossible."
Mr. Bellisario has again forgotten that the issue was and is the perspicuity of Scripture not the whole "method of Scripture Alone" (as he puts it). But Mr. Bellisario is wrong. One can practice Sola Scriptura even if one has (as Mr. Bellisario seems to think of Irenaeus) a wrong understanding of what books are the true Scriptures. After all, the issue of the identification of Scripture is a separate and preliminary issue: Sola Scriptura assumes that something has been identified as the Scriptura.
5) "Most likely the Saint was referring to the Gospels and the Old Testament, making light of the parables of Jesus, which are only revealed to those whom Christ had removed the blinders from so they could understand them."
a) I do like the fact that Mr. Bellisario seems to recognize the Scriptural truth that the blinders that men have must be removed by Christ if those men are to see. He's quite right in that regard. The problem is that, at least here, Irenaeus is not expressing that thought. Instead, Irenaeus is focusing on the human element: the sense of many Scriptures is plain to all, except those who blind themselves.
b) There's no good reason to suppose that Irenaeus meant only the gospels and the Old Testament. In the very preceding chapter, Irenaeus had used as his theme a quotation from 1 Corinthians, writing:
So there's no good reason to think that Irenaeus meant only the gospels and the Old Testament, though certainly Irenaeus did place a stress on the gospels in this particular chapter.
c) "making light of the parables of Jesus"
In English, "making light of" is an expression that means "trivializing." I don't think that Mr. Bellisario intended to employ that expression (though I durst not assume anything). Instead, I think he means "shining light on."
If so, then Bellisario is partly right. The basic point of Chapter 27 of Book 2 of Irenaeus' Against Heresies is that the proper way of understanding parables and other obscure parts of the Bible (after all, not every passage of Scripture is equally clear) is by turning to the more clear parts of Scripture.
This is, after all, the usual way we understand writings. We interpret the more clear by the less clear. In fact, I'm doing this same thing when I interpret Bellisario's expression "making light of" as "shining light on." It's unlikely, in context, that Bellisario is trying to say that Irenaeus is trivializing parables, so from the more clear context of Bellisario we understand the less clear expression that Bellisario used. Scripture, in that regard, is like most other writings: we under the obscure parts from the clear parts.
That's not what the heretics did. They argued that the right way to understand Scripture was found in oral tradition. In the very sentence after the one I included in the post to which Bellisario is responding, Irenaeus explains:
Irenaeus then goes on, in the next section to compare his position of interpreting Scripture with Scripture building one's house on a rock and their position of interpreting Scripture according to alleged oral tradition as being building one's house on shifting sand:
6) "If anything this defeats Turretin Fan's own argument."
Apparently, Mr. Bellisario means that his speculation (at least partly incorrect) regarding what Irenaeus was trying to say "defeats [my] argument." As noted above, however, a correct and contextual understanding of Irenaeus only reinforces my argument. This all is explained above.
7) "One has to wonder if Turretin Fan has really read this Father at any length because the Saint tells us how we are to understand the Scriptures in the very same letter just a couple of books later."
I would be the first to admit that the early church fathers were sometimes inconsistent. That said, even while it is possible that Irenaeus goes on to contradict something he says here, the more reasonable explanation (when someone looks for a comment from Irenaeus that is not only not in the same section or chapter but not even in the same or an adjacent book) is that Mr. Bellisario is simply attempting to divert attention from what Irenaeus is saying in the passage I quoted. For example, Mr. Bellisario does not claim "Irenaeus contradicted himself," or "Irenaeus later corrected his mistake." Instead, we have more of a request that we look over in another direction (accompanied by some sort of personal dart thrown at me). Perhaps as to familiarity with this father it is sufficient to point out that for Mr. Bellisario to say that Against Heresies is a "letter" is simply to misrepresent the nature of the substantial, five volume treatise.
8) "He tells us that they must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops, which Turretin rejects. Turretin Fan conveniently forgot that part. A flimsy flam for sure. Lets read it shall we?"
a) "which Turretin rejects"
There is a lot of juice packed into those three words. What does Bellisario aim to say? There are several options thanks to his ambiguity.
First, he could be saying that I reject his position regarding what Irenaeus teaches. If so, we'll address that below when we get to the quotation itself and compare it to his claim.
Second, he could be saying that I reject the position he ascribes to Irenaeus. If so, he's right. I don't agree that the Scriptures must be understood in the way Mr. Bellisario has asserted. What's interesting is that Mr. Bellisario cannot show such a requirement from Scripture. As we will see below, he cannot substantiate such a requirement from the earliest tradition of the Church or the first generations of those who succeeded the apostles.
Third, he could be saying that I reject the idea of there being traditions of the Church or successors of the apostles. Here he'd be a little confused. Where I disagree is that the human traditions of the Church have equal authority to Scripture, or that the successors of the apostles have equal authority to the apostles. Of course, it is an historical fact that the apostles were succeeded by elders and that those elders were followed by other elders, etc., down to the present day. There is a chain of ordinations. There is also "church tradition" that exists in various forms. Neither this chain of ordinations nor any "church tradition" apart from Scripture has any comparable authority to Scripture.
Fourth, Mr. Bellisario could be saying that I reject his church. If so, he's quite right. But at the same time, he'd be wrong in assuming that Irenaeus was a part of his church. Such an anachronism ought to be its own rebuttal.
b) "Turretin Fan conveniently forgot that part."
Again, the quotation Mr. Bellisario is about to provide is not a "part" of the quotation provided above. It's in the same work, but it is not in the same book, chapter, or section. It's not even in an adjacent book.
Note as well how only a second ago, Mr. Bellisario was claiming that I must not have read much of Irenaeus. Now he is suggesting that I read it and forgot it. This sort of inconsistent rhetoric is self-defeating.
c) "A flimsy flam for sure."
Again with this "flam" usage. See the first post in this series regarding that odd usage issue.
d) "[Irenaeus] tells us that [the Scriptures] must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops"
The only support for this claim is Mr. Bellisario's quotation of a few paragraphs from Irenaeus. Let's carefully consider what Irenaeus is saying and see whether it says that the Scripture must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops.
The first thing to do is to present the text as it appears in Schaff's patrology, as it appears that Mr. Bellisario's quotation is an edited version of that appearing in Ante-Nicaean Fathers, Volume 1 (Bellisario doesn't specifically identify his source). The unedited quotation is as follows (omitting only the footnotes):
Looking at the quotation, the first and most indisputable fact is that the comment "[the Scriptures] must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops" is not a quotation from Irenaeus. I don't think that even Mr. Bellisario would try to claim that Irenaeus uses those words.
The second fact is that Irenaeus does use the words "the successions of the bishops" (notice that pluralization) and does say "they have handed down" which is the verbal form of "tradition" ("tradition" as a verb means "to hand down"). The term "Scriptures" is also mentioned in the text. So, Mr. Bellisario's characterization has at least some connection to the text.
That is about the limit of the connection that Mr. Bellisario's characterization has with the text. The text doesn't suggest that the successions of bishops are a necessary context in order to understand Scriptures, nor that a distinct body of tradition is required for us to understand what Scriptures teach.
The thrust of the section is the identification of "true knowledge." In order to appreciate what "true knowledge" meant to Irenaeus, one needs context that Mr. Bellisario omitted. The immediately preceding section sets the stage for the discussion:
That provides the reference to "knowledge of the truth" that serves as the antecedent basis for the reference to "true knowledge" in the beginning of section 8. The expression about judging all things but being judged of no man is taken directly from Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Furthermore, the discussion of the Father and the Son that make up the core beliefs of this spiritual man who judges those beyond the pale of truth (i.e. outside the Church) are taken from another verse of the same book:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
And, in the same context of discussing that the spiritual man judges all things, yet is judged of no man, 1 Corinthians 2 acknowledges that it is the Spirit that furnishes us with a knowledge of truth:
1 Corinthians 2:10-13
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
You can see as well in this passage the basic principle that Irenaeus is making regarding the Spirit revealing the Father and the Son. We also see that Irenaeus ascribes a subordinate role to the Spirit much like that of the Son that we see in John's Gospel:
John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
After pointing out that it is the Spirit that provides us with knowledge of the truth, we encounter what has been designated as section 8. The section is divisible into two parts in the English translation:
"True knowledge is"
Part 1: "[that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and"
What is Irenaeus affirming about the true knowledge here? One alternative is that (as with the dubious quotation from Cyril that we discussed previously) Irenaeus is indicating a correlation between the Church and orthodoxy. It could also be aspirational: that is to say, it could state what ought to be, as opposed to what actually is. The translators of this section noted (in a footnote that Mr. Bellisario did not provide, perhaps because he used the NewAdvent source):
Before we get to the second half, though, there are a couple of interesting points to note. First, the "true knowledge" here is most plainly the "doctrine of the apostles." Thus, this is not a situation in which we are dealing with new doctrines defined by a living magisterium.
A similar concept seems to be conveyed by "ancient constitutions." These are not something new, recent, or organic. These are something ancient.
There is something that is not just ancient: "the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place." The concept "distinctive manifestation" is a bit obscure - but it is clear that there is a reference of the successions of the bishops by which they handed down "the Church which exists in every place." It's interesting to note, in passing, that it is not one succession, but a plurality of successions.
The distinctive manifestation becomes a bit more clear when we see the two aspects:
1) "being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and"
2) "neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]"
Notice that, as to the second part, this is a fixed quantum of truths. As to the first part, the system is very complete and there is no forgery of Scripture. The sentence structure seems to suggest that the "forging of Scriptures" would be the way in which there would be addition, and a lack of "guarding and preserving" is what would lead to a curtailment. In short, it looks as though what is being guarded are the canonical Scriptures.
This is confirmed when we turn to the second half of the discussion of what true knowledge is:
Part 2: "[it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]."
Notice that it consists in reading the Scriptures without falsification. The fact that this second part is joined to the first with an "and" can have two possibilities: it can be an additional aspect of the knowledge or it can be a restatement of the knowledge from a different perspective.
Notice as well that it consists in exposition in harmony with the Scriptures. This is essentially the reverse of what Mr. Bellisario had indicated in that this true knowledge is something that is to be read in harmony with the Scriptures, not vice versa. Thus, even assuming that the "true knowledge" were extra-Scriptural tradition (something Mr. Bellisario seems to have assumed rather than demonstrated) the relation to Scripture would be the inverse of what Mr. Bellisario had described.
The statement continues: "both without danger and without blasphemy." This would seem to describe the result of reading in harmony with the Scriptures, although the relation of this phrase the sentence is not particularly clear.
The final comment of the passage really shows the main point of the sentence: it has all been building up to this: Love. Irenaeus says: "and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." This kind of comment tends to undermine the idea that Irenaeus is saying that (as Bellisario claims) "the Scripture must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops."
In fact, that love was the focal point we can see from the section that follows:
This section casts a lot of light on the previous section. We see that Irenaeus is comparing churches with the churches of the heretics. When we shine that light back on the previous section, we get the following result:
"True knowledge is [that which consists in]" => What our church teaches, as opposed to what the heretics teach.
"the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world," => We teach the same thing that was taught by the apostles, but the heretics have departed from the apostles
"and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us," => our church didn't come from nowhere, like the heretics, it is the result of the apostles evangelizing and appointing elders, and those elders evangelizing and appointing other elders, and so forth down to the present time, we (Irenaeus included) being the latest generation of this process
"being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine," => The "true knowledge" of our church is guarded and preserved by a complete system of doctrine, doctrines that do not require forged Scriptures, whereas the heretics have incomplete systems of doctrines and rely on apocryphal scriptures
"and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes];" => We are not adding or removing truths like the heretics are
"and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification," => We read Scriptures exegetically, not eisegetically, like the heretics
"and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy;" => We avoid danger and blasphemy by comparing Scripture with Scripture
"and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]" => We have a true love for God, whereas the heretics do not (that love being shown in martyrdom)
In short, not to impose too systematic a structure on Irenaeus, we could say that "true knowledge" is:
1) Ecclesiastically, to be connected to the apostles by being under those who were under those who were under those who were under the apostles;
2) Doctrinally, to derive one's teachings from the Scriptures by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not fabricating either Scripture itself or the sense thererof; and
3) Practically, to love God, even to be willing to die for his Name.
While (1) may seem to favor supposedly "ancient" churches like Rome, that's a rather different issue from the issue we are discussing. In point of fact, on doctrine (item 2), we find Irenaeus pointing us to Scripture, suggesting that our doctrines must harmonize with Scripture, not the other way 'round.
We find further confirmation of this reading of section 8 not only from section 9 but also from looking back to section 7. I've already discussed the second half of section 7, but let's look now at the first half:
Notice how well that fits with the explanation just given. The schismatic is one who breaks with the church over some improper reason (something trifling or arbitrary). Doing so shows a lack of love for God: while they act as though they are straining out some gnat of error, they swallow a camel (an enormous error). The only possible justification for schism is reformation, but such men as this are dividing over minor or arbitrary things, such any reformation that they theoretically could produce could not justify their actions.
As for the remaining part of section 7, as we saw above, it speaks of the Scriptural faith of the spiritual man and the fact that all things are consistent to him. Thus, we see the same three points in section 7 phrased one way, and section 8 phrased another way. However, no matter how we look at it, even the light most favorable to Rome, it doesn't say what Mr. Bellisario contends.
-TurretinFan
Then Turretin Fan turns to butcher the words of Saint Irenaeus. One has to wonder when this guy will stop. So he writes,(He had placed bold on his quotation of Irenaeus, I've removed that bold.) I answer:
We have many arguments at our disposal, we might, as Irenaeus (about A.D. 130 - 200) did and take the position that the perspicuity of Scripture is self-evident, hidden only from the blind:
Since, therefore, the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all, although all do not believe them; and since they proclaim that one only God, to the exclusion of all others, formed all things by His word, whether visible or invisible, heavenly or earthly, in the water or under the earth, as I have shown from the very words of Scripture; and since the very system of creation to which we belong testifies, by what falls under our notice, that one Being made and governs it,—those persons will seem truly foolish who blind their eyes to such a clear demonstration, and will not behold the light of the announcement [made to them]; but they put fetters upon themselves, and every one of them imagines, by means of their obscure interpretations of the parables, that he has found out a God of his own.
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 27, Section 2
Many arguments at his disposal? Many weak arguments. What does this prove? We all have to ask ourselves who the blind one is? The one who reads the Scriptures from within the Church or outside of it. Also once again Saint Irenaeus lived in the middle of the second century, which did not possess a universal New Testament text. So it is obvious that this Saint was not referring to the method of Scripture Alone as Turretin Fan understands it to be. It is impossible. Most likely the Saint was referring to the Gospels and the Old Testament, making light of the parables of Jesus, which are only revealed to those whom Christ had removed the blinders from so they could understand them. If anything this defeats Turretin Fan's own argument. One has to wonder if Turretin Fan has really read this Father at any length because the Saint tells us how we are to understand the Scriptures in the very same letter just a couple of books later. He tells us that they must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops, which Turretin rejects. Turretin Fan conveniently forgot that part. A flimsy flam for sure. Lets read it shall we?
"True knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither addition nor curtailment [in the truth which she believes]; and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and 'above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts of God." -- Irenaeus, Against Heresies (Bk. 4, Chap. 33)
1) There is a fair amount of chaff in this particular segment of Mr. Bellisario's response. I'll just identify the comments that add nothing to his discussion, and address them as a group:
a) Then Turretin Fan turns to butcher the words of Saint Irenaeus.
b) One has to wonder when this guy will stop.
c) Many arguments at his disposal? Many weak arguments. What does this prove?
d) A flimsy flam for sure.
I think it should be apparent that these arguments require no substantive response since they make no merit-based claim. Thankfully, Mr. Bellisario does make a few arguments that go beyond simple rhetoric.
2) "We all have to ask ourselves who the blind one is? The one who reads the Scriptures from within the Church or outside of it."
It may simply be that this is another one of Bellisario's colorful rhetorical flourishes. I'm trying to give Mr. Bellisario the benefit of the doubt here, though. Who is the blind one according to Irenaeus? It is the person who refuses to believe the clear, unambiguous, and harmonious teachings of the "entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels." Nothing about refusing to interpret them within "the Church" or outside of it. "The Church" doesn't even into the point that Irenaeus is making. In fact, quite the opposite is the case. Irenaeus' point is that those writings ("the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels") speak "clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously" and that you don't need special qualifications ("by all") for this purpose. Irenaeus explains away the objection of those who misinterpret by blaming those people: not the Scriptures.
3) "Also once again Saint Irenaeus lived in the middle of the second century, which did not possess a universal New Testament text."
Actually, Irenaeus is thought to have died at the beginning of the third century (about A.D. 202). I've addressed the referenced ("once again") mistaken concept regarding the canon in the first instance in which Mr. Bellisario raised it. His objection here has a slightly different twist, though. Rather than just claim that Irenaeus didn't know what the canon was, he claims that Irenaeus did not possess a "universal New Testament text."
a) This is a strange objection. So what if he did not have a complete copy of the New Testament? Irenaeus explicitly states that the gospels speak "clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously" regarding at least certain important things. Unless Mr. Bellisario is sticking with his straw man that our position is that everything in Scripture has to be perspicuous, it is odd for Mr. Bellisario to complain that Irenaeus had an incomplete New Testament.
b) It should be fairly apparent that Mr. Bellisario is just speculating regarding what Irenaeus did or didn't have. All the books of the Bible had already been written over a generation before Irenaeus was born. Furthermore, Irenaeus specifically wrote against Marcion, explaining that the number of Gospels was exactly four:
It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sits upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit.- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 11, Section 8
Of course, just because Irenaeus somehow knew the number of gospels over a hundred years before Athanasius or the councils of Hippo and Carthage and a thousand years before Trent may not seem like proof enough that one doesn't need an authoritative ecumenical council in order to identify the Scriptures.
c) I don't (right now, at any rate) have time or interest in tracking down precisely which Scriptures were quoted by which of the apostolic fathers. Suffice that in the Schaff patrology, first volume of the Ante-Niceaen fathers (ANF1), the Scripture index contains quotations from all of the books of the Bible except:
Ruth
Ezra
Nehemiah
Obediah
Nahum
(and for those interested, Schaff also lists quotations from Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Baruch, Susanna, and Sirach)
Based on this Scripture index, all of the New Testament books are quoted from (or alluded to) by the combination of the apostolic fathers, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeaus (Irenaeus being chronologically last) (link to index). So, one wonders what makes Bellisario think that Irenaeus didn't have the whole New Testament? He doesn't tell us why he thinks that. (Addendum, Schaff includes an Irenaeus-specific index. In that one, there is a quotation, reference or allusion by Irenaeus to all the books of the New Testament except Philemon and 3 John, and to the Old Testament books except those identified above, and further 1&2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Ecclesiastes, Zephaniah, and Haggai.)
4) "So it is obvious that this Saint was not referring to the method of Scripture Alone as Turretin Fan understands it to be. It is impossible."
Mr. Bellisario has again forgotten that the issue was and is the perspicuity of Scripture not the whole "method of Scripture Alone" (as he puts it). But Mr. Bellisario is wrong. One can practice Sola Scriptura even if one has (as Mr. Bellisario seems to think of Irenaeus) a wrong understanding of what books are the true Scriptures. After all, the issue of the identification of Scripture is a separate and preliminary issue: Sola Scriptura assumes that something has been identified as the Scriptura.
5) "Most likely the Saint was referring to the Gospels and the Old Testament, making light of the parables of Jesus, which are only revealed to those whom Christ had removed the blinders from so they could understand them."
a) I do like the fact that Mr. Bellisario seems to recognize the Scriptural truth that the blinders that men have must be removed by Christ if those men are to see. He's quite right in that regard. The problem is that, at least here, Irenaeus is not expressing that thought. Instead, Irenaeus is focusing on the human element: the sense of many Scriptures is plain to all, except those who blind themselves.
b) There's no good reason to suppose that Irenaeus meant only the gospels and the Old Testament. In the very preceding chapter, Irenaeus had used as his theme a quotation from 1 Corinthians, writing:
It is therefore better and more profitable to belong to the simple and unlettered class, and by means of love to attain to nearness to God, than, by imagining ourselves learned and skillful, to be found [among those who are] blasphemous against their own God, inasmuch as they conjure up another God as the Father. And for this reason Paul exclaimed, “Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth:” [1 Cor. viii. 1.] not that he meant to inveigh against a true knowledge of God, for in that case he would have accused himself; but, because he knew that some, puffed up by the pretense of knowledge, fall away from the love of God, and imagine that they themselves are perfect, for this reason that they set forth an imperfect Creator, with the view of putting an end to the pride which they feel on account of knowledge of this kind, he says, “Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth.”- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 26, Section 1
So there's no good reason to think that Irenaeus meant only the gospels and the Old Testament, though certainly Irenaeus did place a stress on the gospels in this particular chapter.
c) "making light of the parables of Jesus"
In English, "making light of" is an expression that means "trivializing." I don't think that Mr. Bellisario intended to employ that expression (though I durst not assume anything). Instead, I think he means "shining light on."
If so, then Bellisario is partly right. The basic point of Chapter 27 of Book 2 of Irenaeus' Against Heresies is that the proper way of understanding parables and other obscure parts of the Bible (after all, not every passage of Scripture is equally clear) is by turning to the more clear parts of Scripture.
This is, after all, the usual way we understand writings. We interpret the more clear by the less clear. In fact, I'm doing this same thing when I interpret Bellisario's expression "making light of" as "shining light on." It's unlikely, in context, that Bellisario is trying to say that Irenaeus is trivializing parables, so from the more clear context of Bellisario we understand the less clear expression that Bellisario used. Scripture, in that regard, is like most other writings: we under the obscure parts from the clear parts.
That's not what the heretics did. They argued that the right way to understand Scripture was found in oral tradition. In the very sentence after the one I included in the post to which Bellisario is responding, Irenaeus explains:
For that there is nothing whatever openly, expressly, and without controversy said in any part of Scripture respecting the Father conceived of by those who hold a contrary opinion, they themselves testify, when they maintain that the Saviour privately taught these same things not to all, but to certain only of His disciples who could comprehend them, and who understood what was intended by Him through means of arguments, enigmas, and parables.- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 27, Section 2
Irenaeus then goes on, in the next section to compare his position of interpreting Scripture with Scripture building one's house on a rock and their position of interpreting Scripture according to alleged oral tradition as being building one's house on shifting sand:
But since parables admit of many interpretations, what lover of truth will not acknowledge, that for them to assert God is to be searched out from these, while they desert what is certain, indubitable, and true, is the part of men who eagerly throw themselves into danger, and act as if destitute of reason? And is not such a course of conduct not to build one’s house upon a rock [Matt. vii. 25.] which is firm, strong, and placed in an open position, but upon the shifting sand? Hence the overthrow of such a building is a matter of ease.- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 27, Section 3
6) "If anything this defeats Turretin Fan's own argument."
Apparently, Mr. Bellisario means that his speculation (at least partly incorrect) regarding what Irenaeus was trying to say "defeats [my] argument." As noted above, however, a correct and contextual understanding of Irenaeus only reinforces my argument. This all is explained above.
7) "One has to wonder if Turretin Fan has really read this Father at any length because the Saint tells us how we are to understand the Scriptures in the very same letter just a couple of books later."
I would be the first to admit that the early church fathers were sometimes inconsistent. That said, even while it is possible that Irenaeus goes on to contradict something he says here, the more reasonable explanation (when someone looks for a comment from Irenaeus that is not only not in the same section or chapter but not even in the same or an adjacent book) is that Mr. Bellisario is simply attempting to divert attention from what Irenaeus is saying in the passage I quoted. For example, Mr. Bellisario does not claim "Irenaeus contradicted himself," or "Irenaeus later corrected his mistake." Instead, we have more of a request that we look over in another direction (accompanied by some sort of personal dart thrown at me). Perhaps as to familiarity with this father it is sufficient to point out that for Mr. Bellisario to say that Against Heresies is a "letter" is simply to misrepresent the nature of the substantial, five volume treatise.
8) "He tells us that they must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops, which Turretin rejects. Turretin Fan conveniently forgot that part. A flimsy flam for sure. Lets read it shall we?"
a) "which Turretin rejects"
There is a lot of juice packed into those three words. What does Bellisario aim to say? There are several options thanks to his ambiguity.
First, he could be saying that I reject his position regarding what Irenaeus teaches. If so, we'll address that below when we get to the quotation itself and compare it to his claim.
Second, he could be saying that I reject the position he ascribes to Irenaeus. If so, he's right. I don't agree that the Scriptures must be understood in the way Mr. Bellisario has asserted. What's interesting is that Mr. Bellisario cannot show such a requirement from Scripture. As we will see below, he cannot substantiate such a requirement from the earliest tradition of the Church or the first generations of those who succeeded the apostles.
Third, he could be saying that I reject the idea of there being traditions of the Church or successors of the apostles. Here he'd be a little confused. Where I disagree is that the human traditions of the Church have equal authority to Scripture, or that the successors of the apostles have equal authority to the apostles. Of course, it is an historical fact that the apostles were succeeded by elders and that those elders were followed by other elders, etc., down to the present day. There is a chain of ordinations. There is also "church tradition" that exists in various forms. Neither this chain of ordinations nor any "church tradition" apart from Scripture has any comparable authority to Scripture.
Fourth, Mr. Bellisario could be saying that I reject his church. If so, he's quite right. But at the same time, he'd be wrong in assuming that Irenaeus was a part of his church. Such an anachronism ought to be its own rebuttal.
b) "Turretin Fan conveniently forgot that part."
Again, the quotation Mr. Bellisario is about to provide is not a "part" of the quotation provided above. It's in the same work, but it is not in the same book, chapter, or section. It's not even in an adjacent book.
Note as well how only a second ago, Mr. Bellisario was claiming that I must not have read much of Irenaeus. Now he is suggesting that I read it and forgot it. This sort of inconsistent rhetoric is self-defeating.
c) "A flimsy flam for sure."
Again with this "flam" usage. See the first post in this series regarding that odd usage issue.
d) "[Irenaeus] tells us that [the Scriptures] must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops"
The only support for this claim is Mr. Bellisario's quotation of a few paragraphs from Irenaeus. Let's carefully consider what Irenaeus is saying and see whether it says that the Scripture must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops.
The first thing to do is to present the text as it appears in Schaff's patrology, as it appears that Mr. Bellisario's quotation is an edited version of that appearing in Ante-Nicaean Fathers, Volume 1 (Bellisario doesn't specifically identify his source). The unedited quotation is as follows (omitting only the footnotes):
True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 33, Section 8 (all brackets in Schaff's edition)
Looking at the quotation, the first and most indisputable fact is that the comment "[the Scriptures] must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops" is not a quotation from Irenaeus. I don't think that even Mr. Bellisario would try to claim that Irenaeus uses those words.
The second fact is that Irenaeus does use the words "the successions of the bishops" (notice that pluralization) and does say "they have handed down" which is the verbal form of "tradition" ("tradition" as a verb means "to hand down"). The term "Scriptures" is also mentioned in the text. So, Mr. Bellisario's characterization has at least some connection to the text.
That is about the limit of the connection that Mr. Bellisario's characterization has with the text. The text doesn't suggest that the successions of bishops are a necessary context in order to understand Scriptures, nor that a distinct body of tradition is required for us to understand what Scriptures teach.
The thrust of the section is the identification of "true knowledge." In order to appreciate what "true knowledge" meant to Irenaeus, one needs context that Mr. Bellisario omitted. The immediately preceding section sets the stage for the discussion:
He [the spiritual man] shall also judge all those who are beyond the pale of the truth, that is, who are outside the Church; but he himself shall be judged by no one. For to him all things are consistent: he has a full faith in one God Almighty, of whom are all things; and in the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord, by whom are all things, and in the dispensations connected with Him, by means of which the Son of God became man; and a firm belief in the Spirit of God, who furnishes us with a knowledge of the truth, and has set forth the dispensations of the Father and the Son, in virtue of which He dwells with every generation of men, according to the will of the Father.- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 33, Section 7
That provides the reference to "knowledge of the truth" that serves as the antecedent basis for the reference to "true knowledge" in the beginning of section 8. The expression about judging all things but being judged of no man is taken directly from Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Furthermore, the discussion of the Father and the Son that make up the core beliefs of this spiritual man who judges those beyond the pale of truth (i.e. outside the Church) are taken from another verse of the same book:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
And, in the same context of discussing that the spiritual man judges all things, yet is judged of no man, 1 Corinthians 2 acknowledges that it is the Spirit that furnishes us with a knowledge of truth:
1 Corinthians 2:10-13
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
You can see as well in this passage the basic principle that Irenaeus is making regarding the Spirit revealing the Father and the Son. We also see that Irenaeus ascribes a subordinate role to the Spirit much like that of the Son that we see in John's Gospel:
John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
After pointing out that it is the Spirit that provides us with knowledge of the truth, we encounter what has been designated as section 8. The section is divisible into two parts in the English translation:
"True knowledge is"
Part 1: "[that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and"
What is Irenaeus affirming about the true knowledge here? One alternative is that (as with the dubious quotation from Cyril that we discussed previously) Irenaeus is indicating a correlation between the Church and orthodoxy. It could also be aspirational: that is to say, it could state what ought to be, as opposed to what actually is. The translators of this section noted (in a footnote that Mr. Bellisario did not provide, perhaps because he used the NewAdvent source):
The following section is an important one, but very difficult to translate with undoubted accuracy. The editors differ considerably both as to the construction and the interpretation. We have done our best to represent the meaning in English, but may not have been altogether successful.Thus, let's reserve some judgment regarding what the possible sense of this part of the discussion is, until we have seen the other half.
Before we get to the second half, though, there are a couple of interesting points to note. First, the "true knowledge" here is most plainly the "doctrine of the apostles." Thus, this is not a situation in which we are dealing with new doctrines defined by a living magisterium.
A similar concept seems to be conveyed by "ancient constitutions." These are not something new, recent, or organic. These are something ancient.
There is something that is not just ancient: "the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place." The concept "distinctive manifestation" is a bit obscure - but it is clear that there is a reference of the successions of the bishops by which they handed down "the Church which exists in every place." It's interesting to note, in passing, that it is not one succession, but a plurality of successions.
The distinctive manifestation becomes a bit more clear when we see the two aspects:
1) "being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and"
2) "neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]"
Notice that, as to the second part, this is a fixed quantum of truths. As to the first part, the system is very complete and there is no forgery of Scripture. The sentence structure seems to suggest that the "forging of Scriptures" would be the way in which there would be addition, and a lack of "guarding and preserving" is what would lead to a curtailment. In short, it looks as though what is being guarded are the canonical Scriptures.
This is confirmed when we turn to the second half of the discussion of what true knowledge is:
Part 2: "[it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]."
Notice that it consists in reading the Scriptures without falsification. The fact that this second part is joined to the first with an "and" can have two possibilities: it can be an additional aspect of the knowledge or it can be a restatement of the knowledge from a different perspective.
Notice as well that it consists in exposition in harmony with the Scriptures. This is essentially the reverse of what Mr. Bellisario had indicated in that this true knowledge is something that is to be read in harmony with the Scriptures, not vice versa. Thus, even assuming that the "true knowledge" were extra-Scriptural tradition (something Mr. Bellisario seems to have assumed rather than demonstrated) the relation to Scripture would be the inverse of what Mr. Bellisario had described.
The statement continues: "both without danger and without blasphemy." This would seem to describe the result of reading in harmony with the Scriptures, although the relation of this phrase the sentence is not particularly clear.
The final comment of the passage really shows the main point of the sentence: it has all been building up to this: Love. Irenaeus says: "and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." This kind of comment tends to undermine the idea that Irenaeus is saying that (as Bellisario claims) "the Scripture must be understood in harmony with the Church's Tradition and from within the apostolic succession of the bishops."
In fact, that love was the focal point we can see from the section that follows:
Wherefore the Church does in every place, because of that love which she cherishes towards God, send forward, throughout all time, a multitude of martyrs to the Father; while all others [FN: i.e., the heretics.] not only have nothing of this kind to point to among themselves, but even maintain that such witness-bearing is not at all necessary, for that their system of doctrines is the true witness [for Christ], with the exception, perhaps, that one or two among them, during the whole time which has elapsed since the Lord appeared on earth, have occasionally, along with our martyrs, borne the reproach of the name (as if he too [the heretic] had obtained mercy), and have been led forth with them [to death], being, as it were, a sort of retinue granted unto them. For the Church alone sustains with purity the reproach of those who suffer persecution for righteousness’ sake, and endure all sorts of punishments, and are put to death because of the love which they bear to God, and their confession of His Son; often weakened indeed, yet immediately increasing her members, and becoming whole again, after the same manner as her type, [Comp. above, xxxi. 2.] Lot’s wife, who became a pillar of salt. Thus, too, [she passes through an experience] similar to that of the ancient prophets, as the Lord declares, “For so persecuted they the prophets who were before you;” [Matt. v. 12.] inasmuch as she does indeed, in a new fashion, suffer persecution from those who do not receive the word of God, while the self-same spirit rests upon her [Comp. 1 Pet. iv. 14.] [as upon these ancient prophets].- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 33, Section 9 (all brackets in Schaff's edition, some as footnotes in Schaff)
This section casts a lot of light on the previous section. We see that Irenaeus is comparing churches with the churches of the heretics. When we shine that light back on the previous section, we get the following result:
"True knowledge is [that which consists in]" => What our church teaches, as opposed to what the heretics teach.
"the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world," => We teach the same thing that was taught by the apostles, but the heretics have departed from the apostles
"and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us," => our church didn't come from nowhere, like the heretics, it is the result of the apostles evangelizing and appointing elders, and those elders evangelizing and appointing other elders, and so forth down to the present time, we (Irenaeus included) being the latest generation of this process
"being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine," => The "true knowledge" of our church is guarded and preserved by a complete system of doctrine, doctrines that do not require forged Scriptures, whereas the heretics have incomplete systems of doctrines and rely on apocryphal scriptures
"and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes];" => We are not adding or removing truths like the heretics are
"and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification," => We read Scriptures exegetically, not eisegetically, like the heretics
"and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy;" => We avoid danger and blasphemy by comparing Scripture with Scripture
"and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]" => We have a true love for God, whereas the heretics do not (that love being shown in martyrdom)
In short, not to impose too systematic a structure on Irenaeus, we could say that "true knowledge" is:
1) Ecclesiastically, to be connected to the apostles by being under those who were under those who were under those who were under the apostles;
2) Doctrinally, to derive one's teachings from the Scriptures by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not fabricating either Scripture itself or the sense thererof; and
3) Practically, to love God, even to be willing to die for his Name.
While (1) may seem to favor supposedly "ancient" churches like Rome, that's a rather different issue from the issue we are discussing. In point of fact, on doctrine (item 2), we find Irenaeus pointing us to Scripture, suggesting that our doctrines must harmonize with Scripture, not the other way 'round.
We find further confirmation of this reading of section 8 not only from section 9 but also from looking back to section 7. I've already discussed the second half of section 7, but let's look now at the first half:
He shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, [positively] destroy it,—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. [Matt. xxiii. 24.] For no reformation of so great importance can be effected by them, as will compensate for the mischief arising from their schism.- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 33, Section 7 (all brackets in Schaff's edition, some as footnotes in Schaff)
Notice how well that fits with the explanation just given. The schismatic is one who breaks with the church over some improper reason (something trifling or arbitrary). Doing so shows a lack of love for God: while they act as though they are straining out some gnat of error, they swallow a camel (an enormous error). The only possible justification for schism is reformation, but such men as this are dividing over minor or arbitrary things, such any reformation that they theoretically could produce could not justify their actions.
As for the remaining part of section 7, as we saw above, it speaks of the Scriptural faith of the spiritual man and the fact that all things are consistent to him. Thus, we see the same three points in section 7 phrased one way, and section 8 phrased another way. However, no matter how we look at it, even the light most favorable to Rome, it doesn't say what Mr. Bellisario contends.
-TurretinFan
Friday, October 30, 2009
Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 3
I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's response to my quotation from Justin Martyr. Mr. Bellisario has put my words in italics, and I have attempted to reproduce them as he provided them, within the quotation box below. His own words are (for the most part) in the plain font:
1) As to the intro: "Then Turretin Fan quotes Saint Justin Martyr in an attempt to bolster his position that the Scriptures are easy to understand," I've noted a couple of times that the argument is not that every Scripture text is easy to understand. Also, Justin Martyr is not properly a "saint," in traditional Roman Catholic hagiology, not that it matters much (the practice of calling him a "saint" seems to have originated in the 19th century, and gradually expanded due to carelessness - but this issue has nothing to do with the topic of the discussion). In fact, Justin Martyr's testimony is really brought as rebuttal to the idea that Scripture cannot be understood without some further "tradition."
2) Belliario continued: "First of all Saint Justin Martyr lived in the middle of the second century. There was not a New Testament canon yet, nor would there be for the next 150 years or more. So the Saint was not even referring to the New Testament as we know it."
As far as we know, Justin Martyr was born about A.D. 100 and lived to around A.D. 165. There are two main schools of thought as to the date of the completion of the last book of the New Testament, either before A.D. 70 or before A.D. 100. Thus, unless Bellisario is taking a position that no serious scholar has taken, the New Testament was complete either well or at least shortly before Justin Martyr was born.
More likely, Bellisario is simply confusing the historical reality of the canon with official proclamations of this canon. The canon is an historical reality: it is, by definition, the set of the inspired writings. That canon was complete as soon as the last book of the New Testament was finished, whether anyone (other than God) knew that objective reality. Furthermore, while some people may have been uncertain about the objective reality of whether a particular book was in or out of the canon is not dependent on anyone knowing that it is in the canon.
Further, we have to presume that Mr. Bellisario is trying to point us either to Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter (about A.D. 367) or to the Councils of Hippo (about A.D. 393) and/or Carthage (about A.D. 397), each of which contained a correct listing of the New Testament canon. Those are both more than 200 years after Justin's death, though, so it is not perfectly clear what Mr. Bellisario is trying to reference.
In any event, Mr. Bellisario's argument appears to be that because Athanasius and/or Hippo/Carthage haven't come around, people didn't know what Scripture was because they had no authoritative canon. Of course, even after Hippo/Carthage the canon was not "authoritative" because those were regional councils (same for Athanasius, because he's just one bishop). In fact, the first "ecumenical" council to define (authoritatively) the canon of the New Testament was the council of Trent.
Now, if Mr. Bellisario wants to insist that people just had no idea what Scripture was before Trent, so be it. But that's rather unreasonable. Athanasius shows us people knew about it before regional councils weighed in, and the regional councils show us that people knew about it before any bishop of Rome or ecumenical council weighed in. In fact, over a thousand years passed between Athanasius, Hippo, and Carthage (on the one hand) and Trent (on the other hand). People referred to Scripture as Scripture during that time, blissfully unaware of any need for any authoritative canon.
That may sound bad for Mr. Bellisario, but it gets worse. Mr. Bellisario seems to have assumed that Justin Martyr is speaking about the New Testament scriptures. Justin is not. Justin is speaking of Old Testament Scriptures. After all, Justin is debating Trypho, a Jew.
Of course, the same rebuttals apply to Mr. Bellisario's canon argument, if we let him change it to Old Testament canon. It may well be that Justin Martyr had an idea about what books were in the Old Testament that differs in some minor way from the books we have today. What is interesting, though, is that he not only used the term "Scriptures" as though it had meaning, but used it as though it would have meaning to a Jew. That's not overly surprising, I guess: Jesus himself referred to the Old Testament canon as "the Scriptures," without ever explicitly providing a list.
Nevertheless, the ability to reference a group of books by the term "the Scriptures" suggests at least some recognition of the canon, without any authoritative list sitting around: without any "inspired table of contents," as some Romanists are wont to put it. Thus, even if Justin Martyr's knowledge of the canon was less than ours, he had a more or less clear idea of what the Old Testament Scriptures were and so did his Jewish opponent.
Mr. Bellisario's comment, "[Justin] is only talking about an isolated case here where he is quoting the Scriptures for a specific purpose ... [a]nyone knows that Justin was not making a blanket statement on Scripture as not needing any exposition on them," is misleading at best. Anyone reading the statement sees that's not what he's saying. Justin's saying that there are some clear Scriptures that, on an important topic, don't require any interpretation. They speak for themselves. But is Mr. Bellisario willing to grant that many Scriptures are self-evident in their meaning? It's hard to see Mr. Bellisario agreeing that, yes, much of Scripture is easy to understand, so much so that it doesn't require any interpretation.
As potentially misleading as Mr. Bellisario's comments above are, though, his next one is worse: "This is once again a pitiful stretch of the text." The problem with this comment is that he's creating a straw man. He's trying to suggest that I've argued that all of Scripture requires no interpretation, which (of course) is not the case.
His straw man is undermined by the fact that the Reformed churches so prominently exegete and interpret Scripture. Mr. Bellisario recognizes this fact in his remaining comments, which makes his use of a straw man inexcusable. Furthermore, of course, sometimes comments are needed because even Scriptures that are perfectly clear are attacked by those who wish to obscure what is plain.
-TurretinFan
Then Turretin Fan quotes Saint Justin Martyr in an attempt to bolster his position that the Scriptures are easy to understand.I answer:
Pay attention, therefore, to what I shall record out of the holy Scriptures, which do not need to be expounded, but only listened to.
- Justin Martyr, Dialog With Trypho, Chapter 55
First of all Saint Justin Martyr lived in the middle of the second century. There was not a New Testament canon yet, nor would there be for the next 150 years or more. So the Saint was not even referring to the New Testament as we know it. Secondly the great Saint is only talking about an isolated case here where he is quoting the Scriptures for a specific purpose. Anyone knows that Justin was not making a blanket statement on Scripture as not needing any exposition on them. This is once again a pitiful stretch of the text. If this is so then why does the "Reformer" read the writings of John Calvin in which he expounds upon the Scriptures giving his own interpretation? As many times as I have heard the Reformed apologist tell us that the Scriptures need no aid to their understanding, I am baffled by the pages of Scripture commentaries they refer to. If you have to write anything other than what is in the text itself (in this case the Scriptures), then by definition you are expounding upon the text.
1) As to the intro: "Then Turretin Fan quotes Saint Justin Martyr in an attempt to bolster his position that the Scriptures are easy to understand," I've noted a couple of times that the argument is not that every Scripture text is easy to understand. Also, Justin Martyr is not properly a "saint," in traditional Roman Catholic hagiology, not that it matters much (the practice of calling him a "saint" seems to have originated in the 19th century, and gradually expanded due to carelessness - but this issue has nothing to do with the topic of the discussion). In fact, Justin Martyr's testimony is really brought as rebuttal to the idea that Scripture cannot be understood without some further "tradition."
2) Belliario continued: "First of all Saint Justin Martyr lived in the middle of the second century. There was not a New Testament canon yet, nor would there be for the next 150 years or more. So the Saint was not even referring to the New Testament as we know it."
As far as we know, Justin Martyr was born about A.D. 100 and lived to around A.D. 165. There are two main schools of thought as to the date of the completion of the last book of the New Testament, either before A.D. 70 or before A.D. 100. Thus, unless Bellisario is taking a position that no serious scholar has taken, the New Testament was complete either well or at least shortly before Justin Martyr was born.
More likely, Bellisario is simply confusing the historical reality of the canon with official proclamations of this canon. The canon is an historical reality: it is, by definition, the set of the inspired writings. That canon was complete as soon as the last book of the New Testament was finished, whether anyone (other than God) knew that objective reality. Furthermore, while some people may have been uncertain about the objective reality of whether a particular book was in or out of the canon is not dependent on anyone knowing that it is in the canon.
Further, we have to presume that Mr. Bellisario is trying to point us either to Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter (about A.D. 367) or to the Councils of Hippo (about A.D. 393) and/or Carthage (about A.D. 397), each of which contained a correct listing of the New Testament canon. Those are both more than 200 years after Justin's death, though, so it is not perfectly clear what Mr. Bellisario is trying to reference.
In any event, Mr. Bellisario's argument appears to be that because Athanasius and/or Hippo/Carthage haven't come around, people didn't know what Scripture was because they had no authoritative canon. Of course, even after Hippo/Carthage the canon was not "authoritative" because those were regional councils (same for Athanasius, because he's just one bishop). In fact, the first "ecumenical" council to define (authoritatively) the canon of the New Testament was the council of Trent.
Now, if Mr. Bellisario wants to insist that people just had no idea what Scripture was before Trent, so be it. But that's rather unreasonable. Athanasius shows us people knew about it before regional councils weighed in, and the regional councils show us that people knew about it before any bishop of Rome or ecumenical council weighed in. In fact, over a thousand years passed between Athanasius, Hippo, and Carthage (on the one hand) and Trent (on the other hand). People referred to Scripture as Scripture during that time, blissfully unaware of any need for any authoritative canon.
That may sound bad for Mr. Bellisario, but it gets worse. Mr. Bellisario seems to have assumed that Justin Martyr is speaking about the New Testament scriptures. Justin is not. Justin is speaking of Old Testament Scriptures. After all, Justin is debating Trypho, a Jew.
Of course, the same rebuttals apply to Mr. Bellisario's canon argument, if we let him change it to Old Testament canon. It may well be that Justin Martyr had an idea about what books were in the Old Testament that differs in some minor way from the books we have today. What is interesting, though, is that he not only used the term "Scriptures" as though it had meaning, but used it as though it would have meaning to a Jew. That's not overly surprising, I guess: Jesus himself referred to the Old Testament canon as "the Scriptures," without ever explicitly providing a list.
Nevertheless, the ability to reference a group of books by the term "the Scriptures" suggests at least some recognition of the canon, without any authoritative list sitting around: without any "inspired table of contents," as some Romanists are wont to put it. Thus, even if Justin Martyr's knowledge of the canon was less than ours, he had a more or less clear idea of what the Old Testament Scriptures were and so did his Jewish opponent.
Mr. Bellisario's comment, "[Justin] is only talking about an isolated case here where he is quoting the Scriptures for a specific purpose ... [a]nyone knows that Justin was not making a blanket statement on Scripture as not needing any exposition on them," is misleading at best. Anyone reading the statement sees that's not what he's saying. Justin's saying that there are some clear Scriptures that, on an important topic, don't require any interpretation. They speak for themselves. But is Mr. Bellisario willing to grant that many Scriptures are self-evident in their meaning? It's hard to see Mr. Bellisario agreeing that, yes, much of Scripture is easy to understand, so much so that it doesn't require any interpretation.
As potentially misleading as Mr. Bellisario's comments above are, though, his next one is worse: "This is once again a pitiful stretch of the text." The problem with this comment is that he's creating a straw man. He's trying to suggest that I've argued that all of Scripture requires no interpretation, which (of course) is not the case.
His straw man is undermined by the fact that the Reformed churches so prominently exegete and interpret Scripture. Mr. Bellisario recognizes this fact in his remaining comments, which makes his use of a straw man inexcusable. Furthermore, of course, sometimes comments are needed because even Scriptures that are perfectly clear are attacked by those who wish to obscure what is plain.
-TurretinFan
Thursday, October 29, 2009
Blueprint for Reliability Following the Lord's Example
Gennadius (died about A.D. 496) on James of Nisibis (aka "the Wise") (died after A.D. 350): "He composed also a Chronicle of little interest indeed to the Greeks, but of great reliability in that it is constructed only on the authority of the Divine Scriptures." (Gennadius, Supplement to Jerome's Illustrious Men, Chapter 1)
Gennadius (died about A.D. 496) on Evagrius the Monk (lived about A.D. 345 - 399): "He was first to mention or among the first at least to teach these setting against them [i.e. the eight principal sins] eight books taken from the testimony of the Holy Scriptures only, after the example of our Lord, who always met his tempter with quotations from Scripture, so that every suggestion, whether of the devil or of depraved nature had a testimony against it." (Gennadius, Supplement to Jerome's Illustrious Men, Chapter 11)
But, according to Patrick Madrid, Sola Scriptura is a "Blueprint for Anarchy" and alleges that it is "unhistorical, unbiblical and unworkable." Let the reader consider whether to trust Madrid or Gennadius.
-TurretinFan
Gennadius (died about A.D. 496) on Evagrius the Monk (lived about A.D. 345 - 399): "He was first to mention or among the first at least to teach these setting against them [i.e. the eight principal sins] eight books taken from the testimony of the Holy Scriptures only, after the example of our Lord, who always met his tempter with quotations from Scripture, so that every suggestion, whether of the devil or of depraved nature had a testimony against it." (Gennadius, Supplement to Jerome's Illustrious Men, Chapter 11)
But, according to Patrick Madrid, Sola Scriptura is a "Blueprint for Anarchy" and alleges that it is "unhistorical, unbiblical and unworkable." Let the reader consider whether to trust Madrid or Gennadius.
-TurretinFan
Perspicuity of Scripture Contra Bellisario - Part 2
I'm responding to a post from Mr. Matthew Bellisario (see my first post for the introduction). In this post, I address Mr. Bellisario's response to my quotation from Cyril of Jerusalem. Mr. Bellisario has put my words in italics, and I have attempted to reproduce them as he provided them, within the quotation box below. His own words are (for the most part) in the plain font:
I. Clarifying the Charges
a) Mr. Bellisario's first charge is that I have taken Cyril's comments out of context. The context that he says I've omitted is that is from a catechetical lecture based on the Scriptures. Mr. Bellisario asserts that this explains why this particular text of Cyril is focused on Scripture. As for the context, I did point out that the quotation was taken from one of Cyril's catechetical lectures. So, Mr. Bellisario must be charging that I did not indicate that the catechetical lecture was based on the Scriptures.
b) Mr. Bellisario's second charge is that Cyril never tells us that Scripture alone is how the Church receives its only Divine Revelation and is the source of the Church's only authority.
c) Mr. Bellisario's third charge appears to be an assertion that, in effect, I have misrepresented Cyril's comment. According to Mr. Bellisario, Cyril is telling his students that the Gospel was not based on clever human reasoning, and(?) that Cyril based his lectures on Holy Writ.
d) Mr. Bellisario's fourth charge is that I've reached "far beyond the context of the text." Mr. Bellisario does not explain this charge particularly, though it seems to be connected to charge (1) above.
e) Mr. Bellisario's fifth charge is that "No Catholic would disagree that salvation is demonstrated from the Holy Scriptures or that the Gospel is based on human ingenious reasoning" by which I think he means that no Roman Catholic would, in Mr. Bellisario's opinion, either think that "the Gospel" is based on ingenious human reasoning or disagree that "salvation can be demonstrated" from the Bible. It's actually still not clear what Mr. Bellisario means by "salvation can be demonstrated" or even what Mr. Bellisario intends to convey by "the Gospel." We assume that Mr. Bellisario is just parroting back Cyril's words from the second half of the quotation.
II. Responding to the Charges
a) As for pointing out the context, I did (as noted above) point out that the quotation was taken from one of Cyril's catechetical lectures. Also, given the nature of the quotation (that people shouldn't believe anything that Cyril didn't prove from Scripture) it should be obvious to anyone that Cyril was trying to base his lecture on Scripture. So, this charge seems hollow.
b) As for what Cyril didn't say, one wonders why Bellisario thinks Cyril would have to say "Scripture alone is how the Church receives its only Divine Revelation and where it gets its only authority from." It looks like Mr. Bellisario is trying to insist that Cyril express a negative concept in a very specific way. Why? There's no good reason.
Cyril is pretty specific: "Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures." That expression "even ... me" is a way of promoting Cyril to the top of list of sources, and "unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures" is a way of saying that they shouldn't accept "the things which [he] announce[s]" unless they are proved to them from Scripture.
How on earth is that supposed to be consistent with the Romanist position? Can you really imagine a Roman pope saying, "Don't accept even what I teach you unless you receive the proof of this encyclical from Scripture"? Can you imagine any priest of the Roman church suggesting that anything the church, through him, teaches needs proof from Scripture for acceptance?
I ask because that's what Cyril is saying. He's saying that these folks who are not yet even baptized - these catechumen folks - are not to accept what he says unless he proves it from Scripture. He's not telling them, "don't believe what I teach unless I prove it from the teachings of the church," or "believe whatever I teach, because I represent the voice of the church." No, he's inviting them to reject whatever he teaches for which they don't receive proof from Scripture.
c) Mr. Bellisario is mistaken if he thinks that Cyril is simply claiming that he based his lectures on Scripture. That's one thing implied by what Cyril says, of course, but what Cyril is saying is that the catechumen should not accept what Cyril says without proof from Scripture. It's one thing for Cyril to "based his lectures on Scripture" (though the lectures are topical, not exegetical) and quite another for him to encourage them to demand Scripture proof for acceptance.
Mr. Bellisario is also mistaken in trying to limit the quotation simply to a denial that the message Cyril is teaching is a message based on bare reason. He's contrasting two things: (1) ingenious reasoning and (2) demonstration from Scripture. He's denying (1) and affirming (2). Cyril is not just teaching that the salvation he teaches does not depend from ingenious reasoning, but but that it does depend on demonstration from Scripture. Cyril is conveying the rule of Christian faith to the catechumen.
Cyril's words parallel those of the apostle Peter:
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
But notice the difference: Peter was an eyewitness, and Cyril was not. Therefore, Cyril relies on Scripture, whereas Peter learned directly from Jesus.
Notice that, contrary to Mr. Bellisario's insinuations, this not just Cyril's lectures that are based on Scripture, but the dogmas of the faith: "this salvation we believe." These catechetical lectures are the transferring of the faith to the catechumen, teaching what is to be believed for salvation. Thus, while (of course!) the comment is immediately applicable to the teaching of the faith being imparted by the catechetical lectures, it is broadly applicable to the doctrines of the Christian religion being imparted through the mouth of Cyril as a spokesman for the Church.
d) This is already answered above.
e) The claim that "No Catholic would disagree that salvation is demonstrated from the Holy Scriptures or that the Gospel is based on human ingenious reasoning" misses the point. Even leaving aside Mr. Bellisario's apparent grammatical errors and the ambiguities of his comment, the issue is not whether the true doctrines can be demonstrated from Scripture.
Notice that Cyril doesn't just say that they can be proved from Scripture: Cyril invites the catechumen to exercise private judgment and not accept any teaching of Cyril's that is not just based on Scripture, but proved to the catechumen from Scripture. The statement: "this salvation which we believe depends ... on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures" is about as clear a statement of the fact that Scripture is the rule of faith as one could hope for, short of using those exact words. Furthermore, while that phrase doesn't explicitly use the word "only" the previous sentence including "even ... me" and "not ... unless" conveys the same sense in different words.
- TurretinFan
Addendum: Mr. Matthew Bellisario has added some commentary suggesting that even if we are right about the quotation above, Cyril says something different and more helpful to the Romanist position in section 1 of Lecture 17 (link to Bellisario's comment - and clarification). Specifically, Mr. Bellisario provided the following quotation:
The very first thing to note that is that Mr. Bellisario has left off the last sentence of the section. Those sentences are:
What then is Mr. Bellisario's apparent argument? His apparent argument is that "remain out of the New Testament" is a reference to extra-Scriptural revelation. That's not what Cyril means. Cyril is pointing out that his previous lecture (Lecture 16) was based on the Old Testament, and now he is going to be presenting the remaining proofs from the New Testament.
This is confirmed by the sentence that Mr. Bellisario omitted - a sentence that simply drips Sola Scriptura: "Neither to-day will we use the subtleties of men, for that is unprofitable; but merely call to mind what comes from the divine Scriptures; for this is the safest course, according to the blessed Apostle Paul, who says, Which things also we speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual [1 Cor. ii. 13.]." Notice that Cyril has taken the position that the safest course is merely to call to mind what comes from the Scriptures. Incidentally, we are going to see a similar discussion of 1 Corinthians 2:13 when we come to Irenaeus.
But it appears that while this post was being prepared, Mr. Swan made a similar note to Mr. Bellisario and persuaded him (to some extent) regarding this lecture (Mr. Swan's comment, pointing out that the last section [section 32] of Lecture 16 is: "And indeed it were easy to collect very many texts out of the Old Testament, and to discourse more largely concerning the Holy Ghost. But the time is short; and we must be careful of the proper length of the lecture. Wherefore, being for the present content awhile with passages from the Old Testament, we will, if it be God’s pleasure, proceed in the next Lecture to the remaining texts out of the New Testament. And may the God of peace, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, count all of you worthy of His spiritual and heavenly gifts: - To whom be glory and power for ever and ever. Amen.")(Mr. Bellisario's acknowledgment). However, Mr. Bellisario pointed to the next lecture, averring that Cyril has something contrary to Sola Scriptura in that lecture. Specifically, Mr. Bellisario provided the following quotation (Mr. Bellisario providing the quotation):
The very attentive reader will note that Mr. Bellisario's quotation has an unusual punctuation issue after the word "earthly" - namely there is a space before the semicolon. The reason for that artifact is probably that Mr. Bellisario got his text of the lecture from newadvent.org - a helpful website that unfortunately removes many of the footnotes in their reproduction of the Schaff edition. In this case, the footnote states:
More importantly, even if it were authentic, it is simply an indication of correlation between the church that is spread throughout the world and a complete set of doctrines. There is no suggestion that the church has a complete set of doctrines because she is the church, as opposed to being the church because she has a complete set of doctrines. Given the other places where Cyril makes plain that the church derives its doctrines from Scripture, this sort of correlative comment is not only uncompelling, it is essentially irrelevant.
-TurretinFan
As Cyril of Jerusalem (about A.D. 315 – 386) put it:I answer:
Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.
- Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture IV, Section 17
Turretin Fan takes the Father out of context. What Turretin Fan fails to tell you is that Saint Cyril's work that he quotes from is a catechetical lecture based on the Scriptures, which is why this particular text is focused on the Scriptures. Saint Cyril however never tells us that Scripture alone is how the Church receives its only Divine Revelation and where it gets its only authority from. Cyril is telling his catechumens that the Gospel was not based on clever human reasoning, but that he had based his lectures on Holy Writ. Turretin has reached far beyond the context of the text. No Catholic would disagree that salvation is demonstrated from the Holy Scriptures or that the Gospel is based on human ingenious reasoning. Next.
I. Clarifying the Charges
a) Mr. Bellisario's first charge is that I have taken Cyril's comments out of context. The context that he says I've omitted is that is from a catechetical lecture based on the Scriptures. Mr. Bellisario asserts that this explains why this particular text of Cyril is focused on Scripture. As for the context, I did point out that the quotation was taken from one of Cyril's catechetical lectures. So, Mr. Bellisario must be charging that I did not indicate that the catechetical lecture was based on the Scriptures.
b) Mr. Bellisario's second charge is that Cyril never tells us that Scripture alone is how the Church receives its only Divine Revelation and is the source of the Church's only authority.
c) Mr. Bellisario's third charge appears to be an assertion that, in effect, I have misrepresented Cyril's comment. According to Mr. Bellisario, Cyril is telling his students that the Gospel was not based on clever human reasoning, and(?) that Cyril based his lectures on Holy Writ.
d) Mr. Bellisario's fourth charge is that I've reached "far beyond the context of the text." Mr. Bellisario does not explain this charge particularly, though it seems to be connected to charge (1) above.
e) Mr. Bellisario's fifth charge is that "No Catholic would disagree that salvation is demonstrated from the Holy Scriptures or that the Gospel is based on human ingenious reasoning" by which I think he means that no Roman Catholic would, in Mr. Bellisario's opinion, either think that "the Gospel" is based on ingenious human reasoning or disagree that "salvation can be demonstrated" from the Bible. It's actually still not clear what Mr. Bellisario means by "salvation can be demonstrated" or even what Mr. Bellisario intends to convey by "the Gospel." We assume that Mr. Bellisario is just parroting back Cyril's words from the second half of the quotation.
II. Responding to the Charges
a) As for pointing out the context, I did (as noted above) point out that the quotation was taken from one of Cyril's catechetical lectures. Also, given the nature of the quotation (that people shouldn't believe anything that Cyril didn't prove from Scripture) it should be obvious to anyone that Cyril was trying to base his lecture on Scripture. So, this charge seems hollow.
b) As for what Cyril didn't say, one wonders why Bellisario thinks Cyril would have to say "Scripture alone is how the Church receives its only Divine Revelation and where it gets its only authority from." It looks like Mr. Bellisario is trying to insist that Cyril express a negative concept in a very specific way. Why? There's no good reason.
Cyril is pretty specific: "Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures." That expression "even ... me" is a way of promoting Cyril to the top of list of sources, and "unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures" is a way of saying that they shouldn't accept "the things which [he] announce[s]" unless they are proved to them from Scripture.
How on earth is that supposed to be consistent with the Romanist position? Can you really imagine a Roman pope saying, "Don't accept even what I teach you unless you receive the proof of this encyclical from Scripture"? Can you imagine any priest of the Roman church suggesting that anything the church, through him, teaches needs proof from Scripture for acceptance?
I ask because that's what Cyril is saying. He's saying that these folks who are not yet even baptized - these catechumen folks - are not to accept what he says unless he proves it from Scripture. He's not telling them, "don't believe what I teach unless I prove it from the teachings of the church," or "believe whatever I teach, because I represent the voice of the church." No, he's inviting them to reject whatever he teaches for which they don't receive proof from Scripture.
c) Mr. Bellisario is mistaken if he thinks that Cyril is simply claiming that he based his lectures on Scripture. That's one thing implied by what Cyril says, of course, but what Cyril is saying is that the catechumen should not accept what Cyril says without proof from Scripture. It's one thing for Cyril to "based his lectures on Scripture" (though the lectures are topical, not exegetical) and quite another for him to encourage them to demand Scripture proof for acceptance.
Mr. Bellisario is also mistaken in trying to limit the quotation simply to a denial that the message Cyril is teaching is a message based on bare reason. He's contrasting two things: (1) ingenious reasoning and (2) demonstration from Scripture. He's denying (1) and affirming (2). Cyril is not just teaching that the salvation he teaches does not depend from ingenious reasoning, but but that it does depend on demonstration from Scripture. Cyril is conveying the rule of Christian faith to the catechumen.
Cyril's words parallel those of the apostle Peter:
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
But notice the difference: Peter was an eyewitness, and Cyril was not. Therefore, Cyril relies on Scripture, whereas Peter learned directly from Jesus.
Notice that, contrary to Mr. Bellisario's insinuations, this not just Cyril's lectures that are based on Scripture, but the dogmas of the faith: "this salvation we believe." These catechetical lectures are the transferring of the faith to the catechumen, teaching what is to be believed for salvation. Thus, while (of course!) the comment is immediately applicable to the teaching of the faith being imparted by the catechetical lectures, it is broadly applicable to the doctrines of the Christian religion being imparted through the mouth of Cyril as a spokesman for the Church.
d) This is already answered above.
e) The claim that "No Catholic would disagree that salvation is demonstrated from the Holy Scriptures or that the Gospel is based on human ingenious reasoning" misses the point. Even leaving aside Mr. Bellisario's apparent grammatical errors and the ambiguities of his comment, the issue is not whether the true doctrines can be demonstrated from Scripture.
Notice that Cyril doesn't just say that they can be proved from Scripture: Cyril invites the catechumen to exercise private judgment and not accept any teaching of Cyril's that is not just based on Scripture, but proved to the catechumen from Scripture. The statement: "this salvation which we believe depends ... on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures" is about as clear a statement of the fact that Scripture is the rule of faith as one could hope for, short of using those exact words. Furthermore, while that phrase doesn't explicitly use the word "only" the previous sentence including "even ... me" and "not ... unless" conveys the same sense in different words.
- TurretinFan
Addendum: Mr. Matthew Bellisario has added some commentary suggesting that even if we are right about the quotation above, Cyril says something different and more helpful to the Romanist position in section 1 of Lecture 17 (link to Bellisario's comment - and clarification). Specifically, Mr. Bellisario provided the following quotation:
"1. In the preceding Lecture, according to our ability we set before you, our beloved hearers, some small portion of the testimonies concerning the Holy Ghost; and on the present occasion, we will, if it be God's pleasure, proceed to treat, as far as may be, of those which remain out of the New Testament: and as then to keep within due limit of your attention we restrained our eagerness (for there is no satiety in discoursing concerning the Holy Ghost), so now again we must say but a small part of what remains. For now, as well as then, we candidly own that our weakness is overwhelmed by the multitude of things written."- Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 17, Section 1
The very first thing to note that is that Mr. Bellisario has left off the last sentence of the section. Those sentences are:
Neither to-day will we use the subtleties of men, for that is unprofitable; but merely call to mind what comes from the divine Scriptures; for this is the safest course, according to the blessed Apostle Paul, who says, Which things also we speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual [1 Cor. ii. 13.]. Thus we act like travellers or voyagers, who having one goal to a very long journey, though hastening on with eagerness, yet by reason of human weakness are wont to touch in their way at divers cities or harbours.- Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 17, Section 1
What then is Mr. Bellisario's apparent argument? His apparent argument is that "remain out of the New Testament" is a reference to extra-Scriptural revelation. That's not what Cyril means. Cyril is pointing out that his previous lecture (Lecture 16) was based on the Old Testament, and now he is going to be presenting the remaining proofs from the New Testament.
This is confirmed by the sentence that Mr. Bellisario omitted - a sentence that simply drips Sola Scriptura: "Neither to-day will we use the subtleties of men, for that is unprofitable; but merely call to mind what comes from the divine Scriptures; for this is the safest course, according to the blessed Apostle Paul, who says, Which things also we speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual [1 Cor. ii. 13.]." Notice that Cyril has taken the position that the safest course is merely to call to mind what comes from the Scriptures. Incidentally, we are going to see a similar discussion of 1 Corinthians 2:13 when we come to Irenaeus.
But it appears that while this post was being prepared, Mr. Swan made a similar note to Mr. Bellisario and persuaded him (to some extent) regarding this lecture (Mr. Swan's comment, pointing out that the last section [section 32] of Lecture 16 is: "And indeed it were easy to collect very many texts out of the Old Testament, and to discourse more largely concerning the Holy Ghost. But the time is short; and we must be careful of the proper length of the lecture. Wherefore, being for the present content awhile with passages from the Old Testament, we will, if it be God’s pleasure, proceed in the next Lecture to the remaining texts out of the New Testament. And may the God of peace, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, count all of you worthy of His spiritual and heavenly gifts: - To whom be glory and power for ever and ever. Amen.")(Mr. Bellisario's acknowledgment). However, Mr. Bellisario pointed to the next lecture, averring that Cyril has something contrary to Sola Scriptura in that lecture. Specifically, Mr. Bellisario provided the following quotation (Mr. Bellisario providing the quotation):
Now then let me finish what still remains to be said for the Article, "In one Holy Catholic Church," on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly.- Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 18, Sections 22-23
23. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men's knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly ; and because it brings into subjection to godliness the whole race of mankind, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals the whole class of sins, which are committed by soul or body, and possesses in itself every form of virtue which is named, both in deeds and words, and in every kind of spiritual gifts.
The very attentive reader will note that Mr. Bellisario's quotation has an unusual punctuation issue after the word "earthly" - namely there is a space before the semicolon. The reason for that artifact is probably that Mr. Bellisario got his text of the lecture from newadvent.org - a helpful website that unfortunately removes many of the footnotes in their reproduction of the Schaff edition. In this case, the footnote states:
Bishop Lightfoot (Ignatius, ad Smyrnæos, viii.) traces the original and later senses of the word “Catholic” very fully. “In its earliest usages, therefore, as a fluctuating epithet of ἐκκλησία, ‘catholic’ means ‘universal,’ as opposed to ‘individual,’ ‘particular.’ In its later sense, as a fixed attribute, it implies orthodoxy as opposed to heresy, conformity as opposed to dissent.” Commenting on this passage of Cyril, the Bishop adds that “these two latter reasons, that it (the Church) is comprehensive in doctrine, and that it is universal in application, can only be regarded as secondary glosses.”What is the significance of this comment? The significance is that Mr. Bellisario is relying on a portion of Cyril that is not, according to Lightfoot, not authentic.
More importantly, even if it were authentic, it is simply an indication of correlation between the church that is spread throughout the world and a complete set of doctrines. There is no suggestion that the church has a complete set of doctrines because she is the church, as opposed to being the church because she has a complete set of doctrines. Given the other places where Cyril makes plain that the church derives its doctrines from Scripture, this sort of correlative comment is not only uncompelling, it is essentially irrelevant.
-TurretinFan
Wednesday, October 28, 2009
Steve Hays Responds to Francis Beckwith
I enjoyed this article (link) from Steve Hays on Francis Beckwith and his (Francis') peeve about the label "Roman Catholic."
Tuesday, October 27, 2009
Catholic or Roman?
John Z at The Boar's Head Tavern writes:
I certainly can't speak for all of Beckwith's detractors, but many of us take being catholic (in the true sense of the term) seriously. For us, to be "catholic" means to have the universal (that's what "catholic" means) faith. It means to believe in the gospel. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. Rome is not a part of that church. The Roman church is not a catholic church because it has anathematized the gospel. The way of salvation that Rome teaches will not lead one to heaven, but to hell. It is, therefore, misdescriptive to call the church of the pope, "the catholic church."
John Z continued:
There are other ways we can designate members of that sect: "Romanist" and "papist" are two that have been in common use among the Reformed churches for centuries. Both of those terms are descriptive labels relating to the ecclesiology of Rome ("papist" referring to being an adherent to the papacy, and "Romanist" referring to being an adherent of the bishop of Rome). When folks like Beckwith complain that there are many rites of Roman Catholicism and that the Latin rite is just one of those rites, it encourages folks like me to use the term "papist" to avoid any confusion over the fact that I don't mean "Latin rite" by the term "Roman."
Of course, the term "papist" tends to ruffle the feathers of Roman Catholics worse than any other descriptive term, so we sometimes try to minimize needless (even if it is unjustified) offense by using the term "Roman Catholic" or "Romanist" instead of "papist."
After a brief quotation from Beckwith (which we'll address last) John Z concludes:
I doubt many folks would be willing to call Bart Ehrman, another and more famous apostate evangelical, their "brother in Christ." But if you claim to be an evangelical Christian, why would you accept one apostate and not the other? Do you think that the legalism of Rome saves? Do you think that adherence to the Roman pontiff is a true way to the Father?
I realize that John Z may be a very kindhearted person who does not like to judge someone. Yet there are some times when judgment is necessary and appropriate:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Furthermore, I think John Z must be a bit naive. Why would Beckwith be pleased that those he must view as "heretics" (though perhaps Beckwith does not view them as Trent did) want to consider themselves "catholic"? We who view Rome as a proponent of heresy are not happy that Rome is attempting to call herself "catholic" - why would Rome be happy to have heretics apply that label to themselves? But John Z does not view Rome as heretical, so it is not so obvious to him. Hopefully, he recognizes that Mormonism is heretical. If so, is he happy when Mormons refer to themselves as Christians? I would hope not.
But it is worse than simply being a misdescription or simply a matter of Beckwith being grousy over a term that he should be happy for evangelicals to appropriate. Here is the final piece of John Z's comment including his blockquotation of Beckwith:
But worse than that, notice that Beckwith claims that "catholic" is "our name." He's not only using a term that's misdescriptive of his sect, but trying to claim exclusive use of the term for his sect. Rome and her pontiff try to claim universal dominion over Christianity. That is, after all, one of the reasons that the Reformers identified the office of Roman pontiff with the man of sin:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Even Arminius understood this:
These days, however, folks have lost sight of what matters - of the importance of affirming sola fide against the legalism of Rome. Arminius was wrong to treat faith as he did - and his errors were serious errors. Dordt was right, but Arminius looks positively orthodox against the backdrop of the broad landscape of contemporary evangelicalism and especially the "ecumenical" segments thereof.
-TurretinFan
[Francis] Beckwith seems to think that his particularly vocal Protestant apologist detractors are using the prefix “Roman” as a pejorative instead of being merely descriptive. This is probably true to a certain extent, because I’m sure many of them have no use for the word “catholic” themselves.(source)
I certainly can't speak for all of Beckwith's detractors, but many of us take being catholic (in the true sense of the term) seriously. For us, to be "catholic" means to have the universal (that's what "catholic" means) faith. It means to believe in the gospel. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. Rome is not a part of that church. The Roman church is not a catholic church because it has anathematized the gospel. The way of salvation that Rome teaches will not lead one to heaven, but to hell. It is, therefore, misdescriptive to call the church of the pope, "the catholic church."
John Z continued:
I have no problem if Beckwith and other Roman Catholics want to identify themselves as just simply “Catholic.” The terminology has evolved in such a way that it’s the first thing people think of when they hear the word. However, in the comment box, people are gently pushing back, reminding him that the creed talks about the “holy catholic church” and that there are plenty of Protestants (myself included) that are perfectly comfortable using the term for themselves in the sense that it means in that context. In this sense the “Roman” prefix would not be a pejorative but would rather be descriptive of what sort of “catholic” you are talking about.There seems to be something of a dichotomy here. We don't use the term "Roman" to specify which sort of "catholic" a person is, but to indicate that the term "catholic" is not being used in its ordinary sense, but as part of a sectarian designation.
There are other ways we can designate members of that sect: "Romanist" and "papist" are two that have been in common use among the Reformed churches for centuries. Both of those terms are descriptive labels relating to the ecclesiology of Rome ("papist" referring to being an adherent to the papacy, and "Romanist" referring to being an adherent of the bishop of Rome). When folks like Beckwith complain that there are many rites of Roman Catholicism and that the Latin rite is just one of those rites, it encourages folks like me to use the term "papist" to avoid any confusion over the fact that I don't mean "Latin rite" by the term "Roman."
Of course, the term "papist" tends to ruffle the feathers of Roman Catholics worse than any other descriptive term, so we sometimes try to minimize needless (even if it is unjustified) offense by using the term "Roman Catholic" or "Romanist" instead of "papist."
After a brief quotation from Beckwith (which we'll address last) John Z concludes:
Beckwith is my brother in Christ (internet apologists send in the attack dogs!), but I think this is kind of an immature response. In my opinion, he ought to be pleased that more and more Protestants are seeing the necessity to call themselves “catholic” with all it entails (first and foremost that we don’t think that centuries went by without any true church).Francis Beckwith is an apostate evangelical. We have no good reason to think that he has saving faith in Jesus Christ. Folks who view Beckwith as their "brother in Christ" seem to have either a different notion of the gospel itself (which I am inclined to suspect is the majority of the cases), a very different notion of who should be called a brother in Christ (perhaps some of the Federal Vision folks would fit in here), or perhaps a different experience with Beckwith (after all, just because someone is a member of an apostate church does not guarantee that the person themselves is a full adherent to their church's teachings).
I doubt many folks would be willing to call Bart Ehrman, another and more famous apostate evangelical, their "brother in Christ." But if you claim to be an evangelical Christian, why would you accept one apostate and not the other? Do you think that the legalism of Rome saves? Do you think that adherence to the Roman pontiff is a true way to the Father?
I realize that John Z may be a very kindhearted person who does not like to judge someone. Yet there are some times when judgment is necessary and appropriate:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Furthermore, I think John Z must be a bit naive. Why would Beckwith be pleased that those he must view as "heretics" (though perhaps Beckwith does not view them as Trent did) want to consider themselves "catholic"? We who view Rome as a proponent of heresy are not happy that Rome is attempting to call herself "catholic" - why would Rome be happy to have heretics apply that label to themselves? But John Z does not view Rome as heretical, so it is not so obvious to him. Hopefully, he recognizes that Mormonism is heretical. If so, is he happy when Mormons refer to themselves as Christians? I would hope not.
But it is worse than simply being a misdescription or simply a matter of Beckwith being grousy over a term that he should be happy for evangelicals to appropriate. Here is the final piece of John Z's comment including his blockquotation of Beckwith:
Beckwith concedes this point but doesn’t seem to take it too seriously, finally saying:Does Francis Beckwith really think we consider him a believer? We don't. Surely Beckwith is aware of this.I guess it should not surprise me that a Protestant would not only protest against the Catholic Church but also the Catholic Church’s use of the word Catholic. He’s not pleased with just leaving our church and having his own church; he wants to take our name and give us a new one. So much for the “priesthood of all believers.” :-)
But worse than that, notice that Beckwith claims that "catholic" is "our name." He's not only using a term that's misdescriptive of his sect, but trying to claim exclusive use of the term for his sect. Rome and her pontiff try to claim universal dominion over Christianity. That is, after all, one of the reasons that the Reformers identified the office of Roman pontiff with the man of sin:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Even Arminius understood this:
It is demonstrable by the most evident arguments that the name of Antichrist and of The Adversary of God belongs to him. For the apostle ascribes the second of these epithets to him when he calls him "the man of sin, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thess. ii. 3-8.) It was he who should arise out of the ruins of the Roman empire, and should occupy its vacant digaity. These expressions, we assert, must be understood, and can be understood, solely respecting the Roman pontiff. But the name of "The Antichrist" belongs to him pre-eminently, whether the particle anti signifies opposition, or the substitution of one thing for another; not indeed such a substitution as is lawfully and legitimately made by Him who has the power of placing things in subordination, but it signifies one by which any man is substituted, either by himself or by another person through force and fraud. For he is both a rival to Christ, and his adversary, when he boasts of himself as the spouse, the head, and the foundation of the church, endowed with plenitude of power; and yet he professes himself to be the vicegerent of Christ, and to perform his functions on earth, for the sake of his own private advantage, but to the manifest injury of the church of Christ. He has, however, considered it necessary to employ the name of Christ as a pretext, that under this sacred name he may obtain that reverence for himself among Christians, which he would be unable to procure if he were openly to profess himself to be either the Christ, or the adversary of Christ.- Arminius, Disputation 21, Section 12
These days, however, folks have lost sight of what matters - of the importance of affirming sola fide against the legalism of Rome. Arminius was wrong to treat faith as he did - and his errors were serious errors. Dordt was right, but Arminius looks positively orthodox against the backdrop of the broad landscape of contemporary evangelicalism and especially the "ecumenical" segments thereof.
-TurretinFan
Monday, October 26, 2009
When the Moon Hits Your Eye ...
(for those too young to remember Dean Martin or who otherwise miss my allusion)
My pizza illustration (which you can find here) seems to have caught the eye of Mr. Bellisario, though he could hardly be said to be in love with it (you can catch his comments here).
Mr. Bellisario seems to have difficulty handling the argument, though. Let's examine what he does:
1. Insults
Just read his post, you'll agree that's not amore.
2. Straw man
The first time Mr. Bellisario tries to characterize my position he gets it wrong. He states:
That argument is not logically or practically equivalent to saying that since the canon exists, we know what it is. Frankly put, I cannot imagine where Bellisario got that idea.
The pizza illustration may have distracted him a bit, so perhaps he'll try, now, to understand the argument with a different illustration. Suppose you buy a copy of Moby Dick, only you discover that the printer didn't include a table of contents. Could you write out a table of contents yourself from the book? Of course you could! It would be a little annoying, since one expects the convenience of a table of contents these days, but it would be easily done.
If you have the book, writing out the table of contents is a trivial task.
The problem is not writing out the table of contents: the problem is getting the book. After all, the Bible didn't fall out of heaven bound in leather with gilt edges and a pair of lovely ribbons to serve as bookmarks. It was given to us piece by piece.
Of course, in the case of many believers, it does come to them so bound and gilt. It doesn't fall from heaven, but their parents or an evangelist comes to them and says "this is the Word of God" and they either believe this claim or they do not. Later they may discover that the way the Bible came was in much smaller pieces originally, and this may spur them on to investigate whether the bundle has the correct number of sticks.
But again - the same kind of question takes place, simply on a smaller scale. The question is whether this book of Genesis is God's word or not, and Exodus, and so on. They may believe in each case, or they may doubt.
And the same holds true of parts of books, and even individual words. We have critical, majority, and received texts of New Testament that each bring to the reader's attention the need to consider whether a particular word is the inspired word or not.
In Roman Catholicism, there is "canon" (a listing) of books that Rome says are inspired (provided by Trent). Additionally, Rome has clearly taken the position that the extraneous portions of Esther, Daniel, and Jeremiah are inspired. Originally (i.e. in the days of Trent and shortly thereafter), Rome tried to promote the Sistine and then the Clementine Vulgates as being absolutely correct down to the correct words. Now, the Nova Vulgata has come out with significant numbers of wording changes, suggesting that any claim to any word-for-word guarantee is off the table. Until Rome speaks again, there is no inspired table of contents for the book of Matthew in Roman Catholicism - nor of Mark, etc., though no one seems to think this is a problem.
More amusingly, the copies of the decrees of the council of Trent that I have seen have not included a table of contents. Perhaps there was one made. That table of contents, however, was not something that was dogmatically defined by Trent, and consequently would not be (if it existed) deemed an infallible table.
Does this create an insoluable problem for those who wish to rely on the council of Trent in Roman Catholicism? Surely not - just as the absence of "an infallible canon of Scripture" does not create problems for the Reformed churches.
3. Mixed Metaphor / Straw man
Mr. Bellisario wrote:
The straw man portion of his argument is his statement: "I guess if anyone walks up to you and hands you a 'Bible' you should just take their word for it that it is God's Written Word, right?" One wonders if even Mr. Bellisario thinks this is what we have been arguing. Does Mr. Bellisario really think that the Reformed position is that if anyone walks up to you and hands you a "Bible" you should just take their word for it that it is God's written Word? After all, we already explained to him previously that the Holy Spirit persuades men of the authenticity of Scripture. We don't simply take someone's word for it, although (of course) one of the instruments by which we may be persuaded is through the testimony of a person.
What about his analogy? His analogy simply begs the question. Let's alter his analogy a bit further. Suppose that a pizza shows up in its box, but Mr. Bellisario notices that there are no breadsticks. Suppose further that Mr. Bellisario insists that it is not really a pizza without breadsticks. That would be a more fitting analogy. After all, the Apocrypha may have a lot of value for various purposes, and it may even be nice to put them in the same box with the pizza, but they are not quite the same thing.
Of course, the counter-illustration begs the same question from the opposite side. The question is really over whether the breadsticks should be considered part of the pizza. Is it a true pizza without the breadsticks? Mr. Bellisario may adamantly say, "no," and we may adamantly say, "yes," but the question becomes how reach agreement. After all, the pizza itself (or pizza portion of the pizza from Bellisario's perspective) isn't it dispute. We both agree that it is pizza - the only question is whether the breadsticks are also part of the pizza.
The problem for Mr. Bellisario is that there just aren't many good arguments to be made for the idea that the breadsticks are really part of the pizza.
He appeals to the idea that "Christ ... through the Church" tells us that there are 73 books. The problem, however, is that Trent wasn't speaking for Christ. Mr. Bellisario has asserted that, but we have no good reason to think that his statement is true: quite to the contrary, we have many good reasons to believe that his claim is false.
But I hear the bells ringing "ting-a-ling-a-ling" so perhaps I should move on to other topics. Mr. Bellisario's pizza post has done nothing to revitalize his fallacious appeals to the absence of an infallible canon. He thinks that we have a canon problem, but what he doesn't realize is that he has an even bigger canon problem (if canons are a problem). We told him before that his church is misleading him, but he won't listen to us. He cannot establish why his position is right beyond simply claiming that Christ speaks through his church. He doesn't understand the absurdity of insisting that the Bible has to provide its own table of contents, nor does he address the myriad of other arguments laid out in the post.
So, we continue to sing "Vita Bella!"
-TurretinFan
My pizza illustration (which you can find here) seems to have caught the eye of Mr. Bellisario, though he could hardly be said to be in love with it (you can catch his comments here).
Mr. Bellisario seems to have difficulty handling the argument, though. Let's examine what he does:
1. Insults
Just read his post, you'll agree that's not amore.
2. Straw man
The first time Mr. Bellisario tries to characterize my position he gets it wrong. He states:
Turretin Fan however has another solution to the Biblical Canon. He says since it exists, then we know what it is. The only problem with his arguments is, he doesn't know what it is.This argument may seem to shine like it had too much wine, but that's largely because it's not the argument I presented. What I actually said was:
If you have "the Bible" you can deduce the canon. To say that "The Bible doesn't tell you what the Canon is," is rather like saying that the Pizza doesn't tell you what its ingredients are. Well, there may not be a list of ingredients on the side, but if you have the pizza you can write your own list of ingredients.(of course that's not all I said, that's one short paragraph out of the post)
That argument is not logically or practically equivalent to saying that since the canon exists, we know what it is. Frankly put, I cannot imagine where Bellisario got that idea.
The pizza illustration may have distracted him a bit, so perhaps he'll try, now, to understand the argument with a different illustration. Suppose you buy a copy of Moby Dick, only you discover that the printer didn't include a table of contents. Could you write out a table of contents yourself from the book? Of course you could! It would be a little annoying, since one expects the convenience of a table of contents these days, but it would be easily done.
If you have the book, writing out the table of contents is a trivial task.
The problem is not writing out the table of contents: the problem is getting the book. After all, the Bible didn't fall out of heaven bound in leather with gilt edges and a pair of lovely ribbons to serve as bookmarks. It was given to us piece by piece.
Of course, in the case of many believers, it does come to them so bound and gilt. It doesn't fall from heaven, but their parents or an evangelist comes to them and says "this is the Word of God" and they either believe this claim or they do not. Later they may discover that the way the Bible came was in much smaller pieces originally, and this may spur them on to investigate whether the bundle has the correct number of sticks.
But again - the same kind of question takes place, simply on a smaller scale. The question is whether this book of Genesis is God's word or not, and Exodus, and so on. They may believe in each case, or they may doubt.
And the same holds true of parts of books, and even individual words. We have critical, majority, and received texts of New Testament that each bring to the reader's attention the need to consider whether a particular word is the inspired word or not.
In Roman Catholicism, there is "canon" (a listing) of books that Rome says are inspired (provided by Trent). Additionally, Rome has clearly taken the position that the extraneous portions of Esther, Daniel, and Jeremiah are inspired. Originally (i.e. in the days of Trent and shortly thereafter), Rome tried to promote the Sistine and then the Clementine Vulgates as being absolutely correct down to the correct words. Now, the Nova Vulgata has come out with significant numbers of wording changes, suggesting that any claim to any word-for-word guarantee is off the table. Until Rome speaks again, there is no inspired table of contents for the book of Matthew in Roman Catholicism - nor of Mark, etc., though no one seems to think this is a problem.
More amusingly, the copies of the decrees of the council of Trent that I have seen have not included a table of contents. Perhaps there was one made. That table of contents, however, was not something that was dogmatically defined by Trent, and consequently would not be (if it existed) deemed an infallible table.
Does this create an insoluable problem for those who wish to rely on the council of Trent in Roman Catholicism? Surely not - just as the absence of "an infallible canon of Scripture" does not create problems for the Reformed churches.
3. Mixed Metaphor / Straw man
Mr. Bellisario wrote:
[TurretinFan] doesn't realize the the Bible he is using doesn't contain all of the books that the Church has recognized as being Scripture. So now he compares the Scriptures to a pizza. Just when you think you have seen it all. So I guess if anyone walks up to you and hands you a "Bible" you should just take their word for it that it is God's Written Word, right? So I guess if the pizza guy were to walk up to Turretin Fan's house with a pizza box that only contained a half of pizza in it, he would be perfectly happy. Hey, its a pizza, its not a whole one, but who cares, its a pizza.You'll recall that the original metaphor had to do with ingredients. Now Mr. Bellisario has mixed the metaphor and referred us to the number of slices in the pizza. That's ok. We'll address his argument.
...
We know that the Bible has 73 books in it because Christ tells us so through His Church. If [TurretinFan] comes up to you telling you that it has only 66 books, then it obviously isn't a complete Bible, or if we want to use this guy's analogy, it isn't a whole pizza, despite what the box says.
The straw man portion of his argument is his statement: "I guess if anyone walks up to you and hands you a 'Bible' you should just take their word for it that it is God's Written Word, right?" One wonders if even Mr. Bellisario thinks this is what we have been arguing. Does Mr. Bellisario really think that the Reformed position is that if anyone walks up to you and hands you a "Bible" you should just take their word for it that it is God's written Word? After all, we already explained to him previously that the Holy Spirit persuades men of the authenticity of Scripture. We don't simply take someone's word for it, although (of course) one of the instruments by which we may be persuaded is through the testimony of a person.
What about his analogy? His analogy simply begs the question. Let's alter his analogy a bit further. Suppose that a pizza shows up in its box, but Mr. Bellisario notices that there are no breadsticks. Suppose further that Mr. Bellisario insists that it is not really a pizza without breadsticks. That would be a more fitting analogy. After all, the Apocrypha may have a lot of value for various purposes, and it may even be nice to put them in the same box with the pizza, but they are not quite the same thing.
Of course, the counter-illustration begs the same question from the opposite side. The question is really over whether the breadsticks should be considered part of the pizza. Is it a true pizza without the breadsticks? Mr. Bellisario may adamantly say, "no," and we may adamantly say, "yes," but the question becomes how reach agreement. After all, the pizza itself (or pizza portion of the pizza from Bellisario's perspective) isn't it dispute. We both agree that it is pizza - the only question is whether the breadsticks are also part of the pizza.
The problem for Mr. Bellisario is that there just aren't many good arguments to be made for the idea that the breadsticks are really part of the pizza.
He appeals to the idea that "Christ ... through the Church" tells us that there are 73 books. The problem, however, is that Trent wasn't speaking for Christ. Mr. Bellisario has asserted that, but we have no good reason to think that his statement is true: quite to the contrary, we have many good reasons to believe that his claim is false.
But I hear the bells ringing "ting-a-ling-a-ling" so perhaps I should move on to other topics. Mr. Bellisario's pizza post has done nothing to revitalize his fallacious appeals to the absence of an infallible canon. He thinks that we have a canon problem, but what he doesn't realize is that he has an even bigger canon problem (if canons are a problem). We told him before that his church is misleading him, but he won't listen to us. He cannot establish why his position is right beyond simply claiming that Christ speaks through his church. He doesn't understand the absurdity of insisting that the Bible has to provide its own table of contents, nor does he address the myriad of other arguments laid out in the post.
So, we continue to sing "Vita Bella!"
-TurretinFan
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