Canon Debate – Are Tobit, Baruch, and other Deuterocanonicals Inspired Scripture?

On August 12, 2010, I debated on the topic of the canon of Scripture with Mr. William Albrecht (Roman Catholic). The issue was whether the Apocrypha (what the Roman Catholics call the Deuterocanonicals) are inspired Scripture. I demonstrated that they could not be, since they make various mistakes, particularly focusing on Baruch and Tobit. Additionally, I pointed out that they were not accepted as inspired Scripture by Jesus, the Apostles or the other Jews of their day. The conclusion is, of course, that although some of the church fathers may have regarded some of them as Scripture (particularly the wisdom literature of Sirach and Wisdom), nevertheless there is not a good reason to accept them as inspired.

I've embedded the playlist below (I had already provided the mp3 in a previous post).

- TurretinFan

Always Remember

The fifth of November is remembered as the day upon which the gunpowder plot, an attempt by a Roman Catholics to blow up the Protestant Parliament, was foiled by the Providence of God. Guy Fawkes was caught on November 5, 1605, and after a few days of torture gave up his co-conspirators and revealed the full details of the conspiracy, including a related plot to assassinate King James I (VI of Scotland). That's the same James who had the previous year authorized a new English translation of the Bible, subsequently published in 1611.

November 4, 1982 - What Really Happened?

Testimony in Unveiling Islam
The Caner brothers' book, Unveiling Islam states that Jerry Tackett was "an active member at Steltzer Road Baptist Church." Jerry invited Ergun Caner to revival services there. (Unveiling Islam, p. 18) Unveiling Islam goes on to state that on some unspecified day, which was a Thursday, Ergun came to Christ. Then, at a later unspecified date, Erdem came to Christ in the basement of "their home." Next, "the following year," Ergun invited Emir to a revival service. It states, "On November 4, 1982, Emir was born again." The book goes on to state that "In 1982, Ergun surrendered to the gospel ministry. It was the last time he saw [his] father for seventeen years. Acar disowned his sons ... ." (Unveiling Islam, p. 19) Unveiling Islam later states that it was Jerry Tackett who led Ergun to Christ and that it was Clarence Miller, the pastor of the Steltzer Road Baptist Church, who led Emir to Christ (Unveiling Islam, p. 21).

Testimony on the John Ankerburg Show
On the John Ankerburg show, Ergun Caner states that "a year later" than his own conversion, both his brothers accepted Christ (link to clip).

Testimony in Sermon "Church House to Jailhouse"
On the "Living with Joy" Radio interview, Ergun stated:

Finally he invited me to a revival. And so I walked in to Stelzer Road Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio in full gear with a coat on. ... I stepped out of the second pew, walked to the front. Clarence was preaching and he had his eyes closed. "What?" I said, "Isa bin Allah. I believe Jesus is God. I want saved." And he said, "Could you wait for the invitation?" I said, "No." He led me to Christ standing in front of the whole church. ... I went home and told my father. I said, "Abi, I am born again. I'm saved." It was November 4, 1982 and it was the last day I saw my father. ... A year later both my brothers got saved.

(transcript here)


Testimony on Interview on "For Faith and Family" (August 27, 2007)

On "For Faith and Family" in response to the host asking this:

Now, Ergun, you and your brothers were in Islamic Youth Jihad in Ohio.  Is that right?

Ergun Caner states:

Well we - yes sir, of course - but also before that in Turkey - the youth teachings, the youth groups are - they take on various folds - different works that you do - ours happened to be that of jihad and so the jihadin up until I became a Christian when I was almost 18 years old.

(link to mp3 - which also includes some of Ergun's interesting debating claims)

Sodomite Christians - Oxymoron?

Tim Challies has a recent blog item (link to item) in which he discusses Christians who struggle with the sin of desiring to engage in fornication with members of the same sex.

He writes (among other things):

Hill is a Christian and he is gay. Now I know many will get no further than this phrase: gay Christian. Hill uses that phrase as a kind of shorthand to express that he is a Christian—an evangelical who holds to the tenets of the Chrisitan faith, but he is also a man who is homosexual in what seems to be his natural orientation or inclination. He has always been attracted to men and only men. He has remained celibate through all his life, convicted and enabled by the Holy Spirit not to act out his sexuality. But hope and pray as he might, he cannot change his inability to be attracted to women.

First, I want to point out that there is really no need for men to be attracted to women. A complete absence of sexual attraction is a great gift from God, something that can permit a Christian to spend more time serving God.

Second, being attracted to "women," isn't particularly sanctified. In a perfect marriage, a man is attracted to a single a woman, his wife. Perfect marriages may or may not exist, but being attracted to women other than one's wife is not a good thing. Being attracted to a plurality of women is not in itself a good thing.

Third, while sodomy is a serious sin, so are all kinds of fornication. I'm not sure how much of the subjective experience of struggling against sin can be compared between people, but a man who struggles with opposite sex fornication may be experiencing a very similar struggle to a man who struggles with same sex fornication. I think this is important for people to realize - particularly because it seems that some contemporary folks treat the sin of sodomy as abomination but wink at the sins of pre-marital sex, adultery, or lust. Sodomy may be worse, but there's nothing at all good about adultery or any other kind of fornication. Those who struggle with sexual sins need our encouragement to put that sin to death.

Fourth, I don't see any wisdom in using the label "gay Christian" (unless you mean happy) or "Sodomite Christian," unless you are trying to make an oxymoron. Christians are supposed to be holy people. We all struggle with various sins, but we don't go around calling ourselves "Murderous Christians," or "Thieving Christians," and so also it is not wise to call oneself by any label that involves sin. I understand that sexual sins are particularly strong, but sin is a shameful thing. Encouraging people to combine "Christian" with some designation for any sin is not a good idea, as far as I can see.

Anyhow, those are my comments. Feel free to disagree, as I am sure many will.

-TurretinFan

November 2K

The title of this post meshes "November 2," the USA election day this year and "2K," as in "Two Kingdoms." Christians in the USA (except those who have committed felonies, who are aliens, and/or who are underage) have an opportunity to govern their land through the ballot box. The expectation is a large swing in the house of representatives based on the Republican party's economy-stimulating agenda. It's an agenda that should keep the radical 2K folks happy - essentially no mention of God or of moral rectitude on the agenda.