Thursday, November 06, 2008

Clarification of Mariolatry Accusation

Introduction

Dr. White, on yesterday's special edition of the Dividing Line, provided answers and some cross examination of one of the critics of an article I wrote a while ago on the worship of Mary in Catholicism. Dr. White did an excellent job, I write here simply to briefly summarize two of the relevant points, for those listeners who, like the caller, were confused.

1. External Critique

This critique of Catholicism is an external critique. We are not saying that Roman Catholicism today says, "We worship Mary." Instead, we are saying that actions and attitudes expressed by Benedict XVI and others amount to worship: they are worship. Shakespeare wrote that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

2. External Judgment

This critique of Roman Catholicism is based on the actual events and expressed opinions of the members of Roman Catholicism identified. It is not based on reading their minds. We are not suggesting that the average person at the Vatican kneels in front of a statue and says to themselves, "Time to worship Mary." No, instead, we are saying that the expressed attitudes towards Mary (such as asking Mary to turn their hearts or the hearts of others) are inappropriate - that they amount to worship of Mary.

Conclusion

Our goal here is to warn folks that what they are doing is wrong. We are not trying to suggest that "Joe Roman Catholic" knows that he is worshiping Mary when he recites the Ave Maria, when he bows to a statue of Mary, and when he otherwise venarates Mary and deparated believers.

-TurretinFan

10 comments:

Turretinfan said...

"Orthodox" wrote, among other things: "Prediction: Turretinfan won't have the guts to post this comment in its entirety."

That's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think? If you don't want your comment published in its entirety, one way to help make that happen is to include those sorts of comments.

Since you yourself don't have the guts to post your own blog for the public in its entirety, your complaints about me not being your proxy blog are a bit silly. If you want a public forum make your blog public, don't expect your theological opponents to be your publishers.

-TurretinFan

natamllc said...

Well, not knowing, "and no need to know, TF", Orthodox has a will of his own and most likely, my guess is, it wasn't appropriate to put his story onto this blog. As far as guts go, TF, you are one of the few that seems to administer a lot of guts in the Blogsphere! And we certainly know what "guts" are for! :)

Back to the post and the clarification by Dr. White and your proffer on Mariolatry, all I can say is, "warned". Thanks!

One of my Pastors came to visit our congregation several weeks ago and promptly said:

"you know, our Story, if it is not God's Story, is most likely going to be received by the world's religions. Be careful if you are and your story are being well received. Most likely the reason is because, one, you watered down the Gospel and took the death sentence out of it so no one is ever alarmed by their personal piety, or two, your listener or reader didn't hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of the Glory of Our Blessed God". There is one door and one door only to enter into His Eternal Kingdom.

Our Story is against "all" other stories. There is one True story and one True story only whereby one is saved from the world, the flesh and the devil.

If we are called upon by the Holy Ghost to preach this "Story" in the world, and I might add in the new technological age of the blogsphere, it will come against all other stories, seeing there is only One True Story that saves a wretch like you and me!

Apparently your blogsphere is troubling some more souls, TF! Great!

Luk 6:26 "Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.

Turretinfan said...

Kelly,

I will address the post on your blog, shortly, Lord Willing. Contrary to your implicit assertions, external critiques of Catholicism are possible. We don't have adopt all of your assumptions to critique your religion.

Nevertheless, I hope to provide a more detailed response to blog post in due course.

-TurretinFan

orthodox said...

You can't access my blog because I don't have a blog anymore.

That doesn't alter the fact that your moderation is gutless. If supposedly my prediction was so detrimental to its chances of getting posted, how come that is the one part you DID post? Yep, gutless, and now you've added dishonesty.

Turretinfan said...

Dishonesty? That's your claim? Anyone who wants can click on your profile and discover that you have a by-invitation-only blog called "Orthodox Thoughts."

You don't do your religion any favors by acting the way you do, "Orthodox." Consider cleaning up your act.

If you don't have the guts (by your standard) to post your own comments on your own blog for all to see, don't cast a stone at me for not having the guts (in your estimation) to post your comments here for all to see.

Ironically, the rest of your original comments were relatively sane. If they hadn't been accompanied by your insult, they probably would have been posted fairly quickly.

-TurretinFan

GeneMBridges said...

For the official record, this is the message that one gets when trying to access Orthodox's blog:

This blog is open to invited readers only
http://orthodox-thoughts.blogspot.com/

It doesn't look like you have been invited to read this blog. If you think this is a mistake, you might want to contact the blog author and request an invitation.

Now, if Orthodox wants to delete his blog, the software we use allows for that.

If he wants to stop using his blog, that's fine and dandy...but that's not Orthodox's claim. No, he says he doesn't have a blog anymore.

Orthodox, don't call us liars when the truth is so easily verified. Don't expect any of us to publish your thoughts, if you're not using your blog. You've been trying to coopt the comboxes of others' blogs for a long time. What's the matter? Not enough traffic come your way on your own blog?

orthodox said...

That's right, keep posting everything except the bit that refutes you. This is standard procedure around here.

And a "blog" that nobody can read, is a diary, not a blog. It's not my fault what blogger.com says.

Turretinfan said...

"Orthodox" - oh yes, and because I call my donkey's tail a leg, my donkey has five legs.

[eyeroll]

I hope you don't expect anyone to take your comments seriously.

-TurretinFan

GeneMBridges said...

And a "blog" that nobody can read, is a diary, not a blog. It's not my fault what blogger.com says

Then complain to blogger.com. It becomes your responsibility when you start trying get others to be your publishers. If you have thoughts you think actually refute folks, then find a way to publish them without expecting TF or others to do it for you. It wouldn't be such a problem if you didn't have a long and checkered history of trying to do that. Here's a prediction: Orthodox won't have the guts to reopen his blog for publish use after reading this comment. See the problem? You accuse others of censoring you and lacking "guts" but you don't have the guts to try to get around your bans by actually publishing your orthodox thoughts in your own space. If you don't think your comments are worth publishing yourself, why should any of us find them worth publishing?

Gojira said...

Catholics provide a loop-hole in their thinking. They think since they claim that Mary doesn't have a divine nature, then they aren't giving her worship (until of course they bring up theosis, which would make her at the very least some sort of demi-goddess) Bow to her, pray to her, sing to her....nope, nothing wrong here! LOLOLOLOLOL Yeah right!