Monday, May 04, 2009

Response to Challenge to Calvinists

Jamsco at The Responsible Puppet has a challenge for Calvinists: "Show me any passage in the bible [sic] that says that God allowed or permitted something to happen." (source)

Answer:

Two immediately come to mind.

Job 1: God permitted Satan to variously hurt Job in his possessions, servants, and children but without touching Job himself.

Job 2: God permitted Satan to hurt Job so long as Satan did not take Job's life.

-TurretinFan

14 comments:

TheoJunkie said...

What a bizarre challenge.

Acts 14:16
In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.

Revelation 9:5
They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.

Revelation 13:5
And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. [...etc...]

Revelation 16:8
The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire.

Judges 2:14
So the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he gave them over to plunderers, who plundered them.

Psalm 81:12
So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts,to follow their own counsels.

Romans 1...

natamllc said...

Joh 19:9 He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave him no answer.
Joh 19:10 So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?"
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."

The Greek word "given" in verse 11 is defined this way:

δίδωμι
didōmi
did'-o-mee
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternate in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection): - adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.

Jamsco said...

I've already commented on Job here:
http://jamsco.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/job-the-blasphemer/

If you can find the word 'permitted' in Job, you'll have a case. I can't see it.

There's more evidence that God afflicted Job than Satan

Turretinfan said...

Jamsco:

Sorry pal. One doesn't have to find the word "permitted" to find the concept.

-TurretinFan

Jamsco said...

TheoJunkie:

Are you an Armenian? If so, Act 14:16 holds water. (This was the counter example that I mentioned at my post) Otherwise, are you saying that God didn't really have control over the old testament nations? There's many verses that say differently.

Rev 9,13: It is not God who does the allowing but an Angel.

Judges, Psalm - Giving over is not the same as allowing - My challenged was asking for 'Allowed' or 'Permitted'

Jamsco said...

I thought my challenge was clear enough - I'm not looking for the 'concept' - because then you could use many many passages based on how you interpret it.

I'm looking for the statement about God that he Permitted or Allowed.

Acts 14:16 is the best one so far. But I think it's refutable.

Thanks for the link, by the way.

Turretinfan said...

J wrote: "I thought my challenge was clear enough - I'm not looking for the 'concept' - because then you could use many many passages based on how you interpret it."

Then your challenge is very silly. Even when it uses the words "allow" or "permit" one STILL has to interpret it. That's just the way that language works.

-TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

J wrote: "Otherwise, are you saying that God didn't really have control over the old testament nations? There's many verses that say differently."

God permitting or allowing something does NOT mean that he didn't have control over it.

-TurretinFan

natamllc said...

J, TF permitting, let me ask you a question based on this verse:

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

The Spirit and the Bride are saying come, come into what?

Can you answer that question?

James Flanagan said...

"That was easy" lol

Jamsco said...

I'll admit that my challengs was . . . overly picky (though still helpful, I deem) if you'll admit that Job was an unwise place to go.

Really, there are five or six spots in that book that say that it was God who did it.

Turretinfan said...

Job is crystal clear that God permitted Satan to do it. It's the perfect place to go, and the idea of one needing to find the precise words "permit" or "allow" is just silly.

Sorry if that bugs you, but that's just the way it is.

-TurretinFan

Jamsco said...

I didn't take debate class in school, but I doubt that calling someone's statement "silly" (a technique you've now used twice) gets many points.

Tell me why it's silly. More specifically, when there are passages like these-

“Shall we accept good from God and not trouble?”
“. . . over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him.”
"The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised"
(And there are others)

- in the book, why is it silly to say that God took an active roll in Job's suffering?

And why are you troubled if this is so?

Turretinfan said...

a) Those are quotations from Job himself who didn't fully understand what was going on; and

b) Because, however, everything that comes to pass is the will of God, Job was correct in attributing the providence to God, whether God accomplished it directly or through permission (though in this case, Scripture is clear that it was through permission).

c) As far as calling it "silly," that's what it is. The sooner you recognize that asking for verses that use specific words is usually silly, the better off you'll be. I'm doing that to win any debating points, but rather to chide you into a more serious consideration of the text of Scripture.

-TurretinFan