Wednesday, December 23, 2009

Did Mohammed Recognize that the Messiah was God?

Here's an interesting question, was there ever a time when Mohammed recognized that the Jesus was the Messiah, God incarnate? Someone recently suggested to me that the following is evidence for this position.

Sahih Bukhari Hadith, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 649:
Narrated Abdullah:

The Prophet mentioned the Massiah Ad-Dajjal in front of the people saying, Allah is not one eyed while Messsiah, Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a bulging out grape. While sleeping near the Ka'ba last night, I saw in my dream a man of brown color the best one can see amongst brown color and his hair was long that it fell between his shoulders. His hair was lank and water was dribbling from his head and he was placing his hands on the shoulders of two men while circumambulating the Kaba. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'This is Jesus, son of Mary.' Behind him I saw a man who had very curly hair and was blind in the right eye, resembling Ibn Qatan (i.e. an infidel) in appearance. He was placing his hands on the shoulders of a person while performing Tawaf around the Ka'ba. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'The Masih, Ad-Dajjal.'
(source)

Notice that Mohammed is saying that Masih, Ad-Dajjal is not Jesus, the son of Mary. But notice that the argument he makes for it, initially, is that "Allah is not one eyed ..." whereas Masih, Ad-Dajjal is. I realize that a Muslim is not going to be persuaded by the uncorroborated testimony of a single report in the Hadith, but it is at least a puzzling way for Mohammed to describe the matter, if he did not recognize that Jesus, as Messiah, is God in the Flesh.

-TurretinFan

11 comments:

Jennie said...

I think they're confused about who is blind in one eye:

Zechariah 11:17 (New King James Version)

17 “ Woe to the worthless shepherd,
Who leaves the flock!
A sword shall be against his arm
And against his right eye;
His arm shall completely wither,
And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

Turretinfan said...

Jennie:

Interesting connection - thanks!

Jennie said...

I think some people are blind in one eye and can't see out of the other, as my husband says :)

beowulf2k8 said...

I think a case can be made that the Mohammed also didn't really say that Jesus was not crucified.

Koran 4.157-158 "And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise."

I think what little Mo was trying to say was that although they killed him he didn't stay dead because Allah raised him up.

But later Moselem scribes corrupted the text by throwing a bunch of nots in there and then adding the next verse 4.159 "And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them."

beowulf2k8 said...

I also see a connection between the 70 apostles (of Luke 10) and the 70 virgins in Islam. (I'm aware of the grapes interpretation too.) But I know that Marcionism lasted in the East till the 8th century, in Iraq until the 10th (see Iraq After the Muslim Conquest By Michael G. Morony) It is highly likely Mohammed met Marcionite priests in addition to the traditional Nestorian priest that he supposedly got all his ideas from. The 70 apostles would obviously be considered virgins in a Marcionite circle and also be given greater importance than the 12. In fact, it seems plausible that Marcion's version of Luke only featured the 70 and lacked the 12. Anyway, I think the Islamic 70 virgins idea came from this. This also explains the discrepancy of why it is sometimes 70 virgins and sometimes 72! We have the same issue with Luke 10, some texts saying 70 and some 72, the Ceasarean and Western texts and Latin Vulgate 72, whereas the rest have 70. That 70/72 discrepancy is what initially linked the 70/72 apostles to the 70/72 virgins in my mind.

Turretinfan said...

b2k8,

There doesn't seem to be any evidence for either of your conjectures (either that Mohammed met a Marcionite teacher or that that Mohammed originally wrote that Jesus was crucified).

-TurretinFan

beowulf2k8 said...

I didn't say there was. But maybe someday there will be.

natamllc said...

I want to add my "THANKS" to Jennie also for her comment and add my own for effect:::>

Mal 1:8 When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that not evil? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that not evil? Present that to your governor; will he accept you or show you favor? says the LORD of hosts.

Having been in a Muslim Governor's residence dining with him and in his office in Nigeria, Kaduna State, having been afforded the very finest of foods and the human delights as his guest, absent any sign of a woman, I find it hard to believe Mohamed would offer anything blind to the Governors of any state of his faith and persuasion! Albeit those Governors are not of the caliber of their Allah, it seems to me to be a pejorative for him to suggest Our Christ to be blind in one eye?

I would also note that is not so with earlier patristics of their origins, as these Words attest as well:::>

Mat 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."

and

Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

We, the Truly Elect, all know our God in Heaven need no gold, frankincense or myrrh!

This leads me to assume Mohamed was led astray from the Truth about Grace, Mercy and Peace:::>

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

and

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

These Words lead me to assume Mohamed may be mourning, wailing even now as we write about such things because of its Revelation:::>

Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Syed Sajid said...

1. The quoted Hadith is about future and not about past. There are two messiahs in the Hadith, foretold to appear in the latter days, one good (Masih son of Mary) and the other bad (Masih al-Dajjal, Anti-Christ?). So the Hadith is not saying anything bad about the Jesus of old.
2. One-eyed is symbolic, the impostor Messiah's spiritual eye will be blind while his material eye will be sharp.
3. The verse quoted from the Qur'an says that Jesus did not die on the cross but it so appeared to the observers. Some Muslims follow the Bible of Barnabas and say that someone else was put on the cross in place of Jesus. The Ahmadiyya Muslims show that Jesus survived crucifixion and traveled to the east (tombofjesus.com) with two Marys, Thomas and others. He was accepted there by the members of the lost tribes of Israel and Buddhists and died there. One Mary's grave is famous in Murree, in Pakistan, a town most probably named after her.
4. Muhammad did not consider Jesus as God but praised him as a prophet.

Turretinfan said...

"1. The quoted Hadith is about future and not about past. There are two messiahs in the Hadith, foretold to appear in the latter days, one good (Masih son of Mary) and the other bad (Masih al-Dajjal, Anti-Christ?). So the Hadith is not saying anything bad about the Jesus of old."

"Jesus the son of Mary" is the Jesus whose birth is the basis for our years.

"2. One-eyed is symbolic, the impostor Messiah's spiritual eye will be blind while his material eye will be sharp."

That's an interesting position. What makes you think that?

"3. The verse quoted from the Qur'an says that Jesus did not die on the cross but it so appeared to the observers."

I agree that it says that. It's not true, but it certainly does say that!

"Some Muslims follow the Bible of Barnabas and say that someone else was put on the cross in place of Jesus."

The "Bible of Barnabas" is something that was written long after the time of Mohamed - hundreds of years later. Maybe some very foolish Muslims follow it, but no one should, for it is an obvious forgery.

You wrote: "The Ahmadiyya Muslims show that Jesus survived crucifixion and traveled to the east (tombofjesus.com) with two Marys, Thomas and others. He was accepted there by the members of the lost tribes of Israel and Buddhists and died there. One Mary's grave is famous in Murree, in Pakistan, a town most probably named after her."

The Gospels are clear about what happened to Jesus. We don't need medieval myths created hundreds of years after the fact.

"4. Muhammad did not consider Jesus as God but praised him as a prophet."

That's obviously the official position. Perhaps there was some time, however, when Muhammed accepted the idea that Jesus was God Incarnate.

-TurretinFan

Yusuf said...

I can explain this easy inshallah .
Since the Christians accept isa bin mariam "Jesus" of Nazareth as son of god and god himself the same goes for Dajjal first he says he's son of god and later says he is god himself now we worship god and we are told our god is not one eyed because some Muslims will follow Dajjal because of his miracles .
We can recognise that if The Dajjal claims to be Jesus and works miracles then says he's god many Muslims will leave there faith and turning to the Christian theology this is a warning to them we are told god is not man and again that our god is not one eyed .
The Dajjal has a phd in deception therefore this warning goes out to all Muslims with little faith.