Thursday, August 26, 2010

Was Mary Sinless?

My friend Fisher has provided a thoughtful explanation of the reasons why we answer the question, "Was Mary Sinless?" in the negative. (link to post)


Fisher said...

Thanks for the support. =)



natamllc said...

Good post Fisher! Thanks TF for your generosity in posting it!

Here's some verses that seem to cast a shadow of doubt over the question and oh, by the way, I answer it, "yes":::>

Mar 3:31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
Mar 3:32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you."
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
Mar 3:34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mar 3:35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother."

Mar 6:1 He went away from there and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him.
Mar 6:2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands?
Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Mar 6:4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household."
Mar 6:5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them.
Mar 6:6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching.

Truth Unites... and Divides said...


Really. A big, major "WOW!"

Strong Tower said...

Excellent Fisher!

I think I first encountered the exegesis of the term in D. Martin-Lloyd Jones, if I remember right, and if my memory is not as decrepit as my body, he used it in relationship to the exhaustiveness of the blessing as related to exclusive election in salvation and the sanctification of all is all. If it is true that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing then nothing is lacking concerning salvation. As Paul puts it, that perfection is in Christ, not us. That strengthens Paul's proclaimation that it is by grace through faith and faith itself being part of the charis. Because it is this exhaustive grace with which God has graced us, it is the premise for what follows in Ephesians. Because it is so, so this growing up into the fullness of the knowledge of the Son is so. The promise made before the foundations of the world to the Son that we should be heirs with him in that perfection, cannot be annulled by anything that comes after. Or it may be said, as it was in the beginning so it shall be in the end.

On Mary, beside the examples you point out, she was faithless to her own son, anyway, in this sense, her knowledge was fallible, not just in not knowing the Father's will, but that of the revelation of Scripture concerning her own son's true purpose. No having learned from two earlier rebukes, she tried to have him put away, considering him insane and thus making herself one with the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of being mad. Further, we see Mary fleeing with the rest at the crucifixion, as she, like all others were gripped with the same fear that caused Peter's denial of Christ. I make mention of these things simply to demonstrate, as you did, that even if the term did not appear in Ephesians, it is manifestly not true that Mary was immaculate.

The blind man always knows where he is.

natamllc said...


as I read your words, another thought came to me that applies.

Does one take death defying perfumes and spices and wrap up a corpse you believe will come alive soon after entombing or bring them three days later if you believe there will be an empty tomb?

The Scriptures, or rather the Holy Spirit through the Gospel records leaves no doubts lingering, it seems to me, ironic as that sounds, that no one believed the tomb would be empty after His corpse was entombed or three days later when several carried perfumes and spices to cover Him then!

Mar 16:1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.

Luk 23:55 The women who had come with him from Galilee followed and saw the tomb and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
Luk 24:1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.

Joh 19:39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight.

Strong Tower said...

You're right nat, it makes no sense if Mary knew, but she didn't believe. That is she was an unbeliever... dead in sin and trespass. Otherwise, she would have seen clearly because she would have believed. But, none, not one of Christ's disciples believed as they should have. We have this testimony: Strike the shepher and the sheep will be scattered," defining the humiliation of Christ. What does it say if Mary was not scattered, if she remained faithful to the end, that she was not one of his sheep?

Fredericka said...

Thomas is wrong about a lot of things, but he got this one right: “Likewise, if Mary had been conceived without original sin, she would not have had to be redeemed by Christ, and so Christ would not be the universal redeemer of men, which detracts from His dignity.” (Thomas Aquinas, Compendium of Theology, Part 1, Chapter 224).

If things were as they say, then Mary's prayer would be the prayer of the Pharisee, "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are. . ." (Luke 18:10). Could she fail to thank God for what He had done for her? But this prayer is not pleasing to God, because "every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 18:14). If Mary reported the plain facts about herself, she would run afoul of scripture, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us...If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10). She could not repent, so her Son's preaching just bounces off her: "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17). What is most alarming is the woman taken in adultery: Jesus did not say, 'The Law of Moses is rescinded, this penalty no longer applies,' but "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7). Had Mary been around, she would have had to pick up a rock and heave it.

natamllc said...


come on now! Now, now, now! grrrrr

If you continue in this way of thinking and persist in making such deep and real and refreshing comments as you do, Mary's will will be tarnished and you will be anathematized!

My thinking is, if perchance you visit Rome, you had better go disguised as an Italian!


Because you never know how one fairs thrown into the Milan River?

Although, when over there I heard one say you know next year's fashion colors by this year's color of the river?

I just can't see the Pope throwing you into the Tiber and polluting it? Can you? :)