... since the beginning she has been very much present in the personal lives of Cubans as well as in the great events of the nation ... for she is honoured by all as the true mother of the Cuban people. Devotion to the "Virgen Mambisa" has sustained the faith and inspired the defence and promotion of all that gives dignity to the human condition and fundamental rights, and it continues to do so today with ever greater strength, giving visible witness to the fruitfulness of the preaching of the Gospel in these lands, and to the profound Christian roots which shape the deepest identity of the Cuban soul. Following in the footsteps of countless pilgrims down the centuries, I too wish to go to El Cobre to kneel at the feet of the Mother of God, to thank her for her concern for all her Cuban children, and to ask her to guide the future of this beloved nation in the ways of justice, peace, freedom and reconciliation ...Note that Benedict XVI confesses to the desire not only to go to the idol at El Cobre, but also to assume a posture of worship, namely that of kneeling. He advocates religious devotion to the idol. Moreover, he also, again, confesses to a desire to attempt to communicate with her including not just a request for guidance, but also thanks - something that cannot reasonably be interpreted as a request for her to pray.
- TurretinFan
6 comments:
I've always heard of catholics, especially charismatic catholics, an argument that I too defended when I was one, which is: "We don't commit idolatry because we don't ask her to do anything for us. We just ask her to pray for us, that's all." I would argue now, with the Word of God on my hand, that that is just merely ridiculous. The Bible says we have only one mediator, Jesus Christ. Furthermore, nowhere in the Bible does it say that you CAN pray to, or "direct your prayers to" someone else other than God Almighty. & moreover, it's proof here that even their Pope doesn't believe that you only ask her to pray for you. He's asking for "guidance". Something that could be imposible for him to ask her if he didn't believe she was a "goddess" or a "semi-goddess" or had the qualities and traits of such. There's no way to turn this around. There's no way you can condone this flagrant idolatry and call yourself a christian. No apostle mentioned in their letters the need or the "option" to pray to Mary or the martyrs or ask them their intercession, because that simply does not come from the Holy Spirit. The letters are completely and exclusively Christ-centered. Why on Earth do we still believe we are entitled to be proud enough to ADD or TAKE anything in the Word of God??? Who do we think we are?
MBd:
Yes, that's one reason I post these comments. I hear that all the time too - mostly from those in the Roman communion who are "converts" from some kind of Protestant church. They may really not understand what it is that their church teaches and practices.
I also hear from some more sophisticated people that Mariolatry exists in some places (Latin America is usually the target) but that this is not official church teaching. The problem with this argument is that if the pope is doing it, it's hardly just some unofficial abuse among some minority of the church.
-TurretinFan
"I too wish to go to El Cobre to kneel at the feet of the Mother of God, to thank her for her concern for all her Cuban children, and to ask her to guide the future of this beloved nation in the ways of justice, peace, freedom and reconciliation ..."
vs
"We just ask them to pray for us... we don't pray TO them!"
Hello, I've been a longtime reader of this blog over the past three years but have not commented previously. I am also an ex-Catholic, now Anglican.
Although technically Catholics ask Mary to intercede at the end of a written prayer, in practice and in parlance they really do pray to Mary. I did that a lot (and I was well catechised and superbly brought up in the faith). I am sure that I was not alone. People would say, 'Ask the Blessed Mother.' The unspoken words might have been 'to intercede', but that is not how it works in reality.
I should add that I was shocked to see that John Paul II's authorised catechism sets Mary firmly in place as co-redemptrix. Now, that I did not learn at all at home or during my many years of Catholic education, as it was after I became a Protestant. I was also shocked to find that Mary is referred to by the Roman Catholic Church as the new Ark of the Covenant, a concept of which I've read although it makes no biblical or theological sense to me.
Catholics should not construe my comment as any disrespect to the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, but nowhere is Mary as co-Redemptrix or New Ark of the Covenant to be found in Scripture. Nor can it be construed. Even John, into whose loving care Christ entrusted Mary before His death on the Cross, does not mention her as having any role in salvation.
I've had some of your Catholic apologists on my blog, Turretin Fan, but, unlike you, am unable to generously offer a debating society on my blog. Therefore, I shall not be debating any Catholics here or on my site on this point beyond a comment or two, although I do have some of John MacArthur's resources on Mariolatry at my site. He did a forensic study which should be a jolt to the system of any Catholic.
May God continue to bless you in your fine apologetics for the Refomed faith.
Churchmouse,
I saw something the other day flipping through T.V. channels. I came across the Catholic channel and saw, as the cameraman zoomed upon a nun, a nun praying before the shroud of Turin! Then that nun was interviewed about what she was doing and experiencing as she prayed.
As I listened to her tell us what she was experiencing, I am not sure, but, I swear my chin was scuffed up a bit as it hit the floor!
I just wonder within these orders if they ever get down and pray to the Lord Jesus as King over all the earth?
Is not the Word of the Prophet apropos? Zep 3:12 But I will leave in your midst a people humble and lowly. They shall seek refuge in the name of the LORD,
Zep 3:13 those who are left in Israel; they shall do no injustice and speak no lies, nor shall there be found in their mouth a deceitful tongue. For they shall graze and lie down, and none shall make them afraid."
Zep 3:14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Zep 3:15 The LORD has taken away the judgments against you; he has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall never again fear evil.
Zep 3:16 On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: "Fear not, O Zion; let not your hands grow weak.
Zep 3:17 The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.
Zep 3:18 I will gather those of you who mourn for the festival, so that you will no longer suffer reproach.
Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will deal with all your oppressors. And I will save the lame and gather the outcast, and I will change their shame into praise and renown in all the earth.
Zep 3:20 At that time I will bring you in, at the time when I gather you together; for I will make you renowned and praised among all the peoples of the earth, when I restore your fortunes before your eyes," says the LORD.
Hello, Natamllc --
Thank you for your response. My apologies for the late reply.
What you recount is pretty normal in Roman Catholicism. From my upbringing, if I'd seen that, I'd probably just have shrugged and changed channels -- because there is nothing unusual about that for someone who has been raised as a Catholic.
Nowadays, it's all about a meaningful religious experience. The Emergents rely on this from Catholic monks and lecturers, too. The Nazarenes are also getting the same infiltration (see Manny Silva's 'Reformed Nazarene' blog).
I fully agree with you about the Zephaniah verses you cite as well as those warning against the 'Queen of Heaven' idolatry (Jer. 44), which, if I'd still been a Catholic when I read them would have really floored me. You probably know that in the Catholic Church one of Mary's titles is ... Queen of Heaven.
This is why on my blog I am very concerned about citing the Bible in a few posts during the week with a Scripture study at the weekend. Too few 'Christians' these days read it. It's bad enough having lay readers in Catholic and mainline Protestant churches who don't read the assigned Scripture properly in Sunday services/Mass in front of the congregation; it's obvious many of them do not rehearse it or try to study its meaning. I know one Catholic lay reader who admits to 'winging' it, joking about it afterward. Who needs the Bible, anyway? /sarc
I see a real potential for Mariolatry in a possible one-world religion scenario full of mysticism, Mary and no Scripture at all. After all, the Bible offends. Let's have a poem or a passage from a novel instead. (I'm rolling my eyes as I type this.) Mary can unite Christians and Muslims (who acknowledge her in some sense). The personal post-New Age religious experience could well become a focal point to lend 'depth and meaning'. Let's pray this doesn't happen.
If Turretin Fan will allow me to post a link explaining this, here it is, with my thanks in advance:
http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2011/02/25/the-mariology-dossier-complete-set-of-links/
Churchmouse
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