Friday, September 18, 2020

Rebuttal Thoughts - Romans 9 Debate

These will not make a lot of sense without the context of the debate, and I may pull this post shortly.

The main counter-point to consider is this: what does God take credit for?  The short answer: everything.  Remember how all things work together for good to those who are the called?  The same point is bookended at the end of Romans 11.


Romans 9:14 - Jewish objector or Arminian Objector

Actually, it's neither.  It's a Roman objector.  That said, it's more important what the objection is, and what's behind it, as well as how it's answered.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

What's the thrust of the objection? The thrust of the objection is that God is showing favoritism.  The answer is, it's not unjust because God is the one who decides these things.  Paul doesn't back away from the claim - he doubles down on it.

What about the claim that what the Jews got wrong was confusing law and promise? Well, is that what Paul answers? Not here.  Instead, what God answers is the challenge to his righteousness for picking some. The answer is: God can do what God wants to do.


Romans 9:15-16 Salvation vs. Unconditional Individual Election

It is a false dichotomy, since Election is what leads to salvation, as we've previously established.  Moreover, it is a consideration of things ex ante - namely from before they occur, as especially comes out in vs. 17.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Notice as well that when it comes to the objection about "who has resisted God's will," how would that mesh with the supposed thread about confusing law and promise? It wouldn't.  

It does, however, align with preceding point properly understood about God's authority to do what God wants.

Thus, when God makes the pottery illustration it is to affirm his absolute right to do with mankind as God wishes.

Romans 9:17-23 Hardening vs. Unconditional Reprobation

Once again, we are dealing in false dichotomy.  Also, there is an asymmetry between election and reprobation that the heading does not reflect.  Even setting that aside, since reprobation is the source of the hardening - in other words God takes credit for it - the dichotomy is false.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

9:24  οὓς καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ἡμᾶς οὐ μόνον ἐξ Ἰουδαίων ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐξ ἐθνῶν

What does the "ek" there mean? It's that the calling is not universal, it is particular.  And that connects us back to the previous discussions.

As a side note, I do find it interesting how often non-Calvinists will go to Jeremiah 18 simply because it also mentions a potter and clay.

The similarities and differences chart was interesting, but missed the main point.

"Although willing" as concessive? 

9:22  εἰ δὲ θέλων ὁ θεὸς ἐνδείξασθαι τὴν ὀργὴν καὶ γνωρίσαι τὸ δυνατὸν αὐτοῦ ἤνεγκεν ἐν πολλῇ μακροθυμίᾳ σκεύη ὀργῆς κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν

This seems to be based on the English use of "I'm willing to," as distinct from the Greek use of thelo.



4 comments:

Matt Hedges said...

Hi, TurretinFan.

I have got a quick question for you. How would you respond to someone who claims that all of the church fathers believed in baptismal regeneration? Also what do you with this quote from Philip Schaff:

"This ordinance was regarded in the ancient church as the sacrament of the
new birth or regeneration, and as the solemn rite of initiation into the
Christian Church, admitting to all her benefits and committing to all her
obligations.....From John 3:5 and Mark 16:16, Tertullian and other fathers argued the necessity of baptism to salvation." (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church Volume 2, pg. 209) I am reading from this specific pdf: http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-11/V6F-Z/SHF_HCC2.PDF (The page numbers might be different in a physical copy or in some other pdf)

Matt Hedges said...

Case in point with Tertullian:


Tertullian

“One can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (Baptism 12:1 ).

Matt Hedges said...

TurretinFan


Do you go into the new prosapologian channel that was made after the old one shut down?

In Jung said...

I'm 55-year-old from paris, I was diagnosed with second-stage liver cancer following a scheduled examination to monitor liver cirrhosis. I had lost a lot of weight. A CT scan revealed three tumors; one in the center of my liver in damaged tissue and two in healthy portions of my liver. No chemotherapy or radiotherapy treatment was prescribed due to my age, the number of liver tumors. One month following my diagnosis I began taking 12 (350 point) Salvestrol supplements per day, commensurate with my body weight. This comprised six Salvestrol Shield (350 point) capsules and six Salvestrol Gold (350 point) capsules, spread through the day by taking two of each capsule after each main meal. This level of Salvestrol supplementation (4,000 points per day) was maintained for four months. In addition, I began a program of breathing exercises, chi exercises, meditation, stretching and stress avoidance. Due to the variety of conditions that I suffered from, I received ongoing medical examinations. Eleven months after commencing Salvestrol supplementation But all invalid so I keep searching for a herbal cure online that how I came across a testimony appreciating Dr Itua on how he cured her HIV/Herpes, I contacted him through email he listed above, Dr Itua sent me his herbal medicine for cancer to drink for two weeks to cure I paid him for the delivering then I received my herbal medicine and drank it for two weeks and I was cured until now I'm all clear of cancer, I will advise you to contact Dr Itua Herbal Center On Email...drituaherbalcenter@gmail.com. WhatsApps Number...+2348149277967. If you are suffering from Diseases listed below, Cancer, HIV/Aids, Herpes Virus,Bladder cancer,Brain cancer,Colon-Rectal Cancer,Breast Cancer,Prostate Cancer,
?Esophageal cancer,?Gallbladder cancer,Gestational trophoblastic disease,Head and neck cancer,?Hodgkin lymphoma
?Intestinal cancer,Kidney cancer,Leukemia,Liver cancer,Lung cancer,Melanoma,Mesothelioma,?Multiple myeloma,?Neuroendocrine tumors,Non-Hodgkin lymphoma,?Oral cancer,Ovarian cancer,?Sinus cancer,Skin cancer,Soft tissue sarcoma,Spinal cancer,Stomach cancer,Testicular cancer,Throat cancer,Thyroid Cancer,?Uterine cancer,Vaginal cancer,?Vulvar cancer,Hepatitis, Chronic Illness. Lupus,Fibromyalgia.