Saturday, May 03, 2008

Response to Muslim Apologist

I recently came across the following Muslim apologetic video, which I do not endorse (obviously), but to which I have prepared a response. (link)

A quick personal note. This is one of the calmest, kindest, and most reasonable Muslim apologists I've seen on-line. He's also one of the most well-dressed. The gold-bordered robe and turban are very nice. I also appreciated his kindness toward the Christian apologist (DrOakley1689) to whom he was responding.

The person in the video (mujtahid2006) uses three main arguments:

1) According to the man in the video, Mohamed taught caution toward the Bible. "Do not believe anything in the Bible and don't disbelieve anything that is in the Bible."

a) This doesn't seem to be a fully accurate translation. There are two seemingly relevant alleged sayings in the Hadith, and the person in the video seems to be relying on the following one:

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' " (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)

Notice that this translation indicates that it is the people (not the books) that are not be believed or disbelieved. But to answer the man in the video, we do are not persuaded that this account in the Hadith is genuine - i.e. original. The bottom line is that it is not in the Koran. It is not an account that claims to be handed down from Allah, and to be unchanged.

b) But there is also another saying in the Hadith, which seems to be at variance with a portrayal of Muslim attitude toward the Bible as merely "caution." Here is that second saying:

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' " (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

Notice in this account the accusation of change and manipulation. Here Mohamed is described as saying that Muslims should not investigate the Bible, because they have newer revelation. Again, of course, this is not taken from Koran, but from the Hadith. Thus, it is not part of the supposedly "pure, undistorted, and unchanged" book that Allah supposedly gave to Mohamed.

It seems that this would, however, be the better quotation to provide to rebut the fact that early Muslims did not allege corruption of the Bible. Nevertheless, DrOakley1689's view seems to be that this Hadith is a later addition - i.e. that it is not a genuine teaching of Mohamed.

2) There is support for the Islamic accounts of Jesus in other gospels.

The person in the video cites to a lot of works that he seems to believe provide support for an Islamic image of Jesus. One significant problem with this claim is that he cites to works that have no historical connection to Jesus. They are typically from books that are well recognized as having been written (at the earliest) about a century after Jesus' resurrection.

3) Jesus was less than the Father - and therefore finite - and not God

The person in the video argues that Jesus says, that "The Father is greater than I." The person then assumes that this is a reference to the infinite-ness of God. That's not the case. The case is that Jesus is subordinate to the Father. The Father/Son metaphor is itself designed (at least in part) to convey that subordination within the Trinity, although that subordination does not imply inequality. Recall, that when Jesus indicated that he was the "Son of God," the unbelieving Jews considered it blasphemy, because such a title indicated his equality with God.

Of course, the underlying danger is that the apologist using this verse does not believe it to be a true statement of Jesus. The "Jesus" (Isa) of the Koran could not possibly have said that "The Father is greater than I," in reference to God, because the Koran claims that God does not beget. Thus, the Muslim cannot really use this verse to say that Jesus claimed to be less than the Father. Instead, the Muslim can really only try to use this verse to claim that the Bible is somehow inconsistent, as the person in the video appears ready and willing to admit. However, this alleged inconsistency is easily answered, as demonstrated above. Thus, the purity and consistency of the Bible is maintained.

I should note that, while I was writing this, DrOakley1689 himself had begun to provide a response in several parts, and I have now updated this post to include all four parts. Dr. White (DrOakley1689), in his videos, provides some response to other arguments that are presented in video.

Part I


Part II


Part III


Part IV


-Turretinfan

3 comments:

luvvom said...

Perhaps this could be a good time to present the Gospel to him.

natamllc said...

TF,

yes, I tend to agree with you here, and Dr. White! How amazing! :)

These things bring trouble to my soul to which I am constantly reminded.

Oh, what a wooz! Oh well, I too am in need of My Savior!

I wanted to go off on it abit myself, this man's presentation, with this angle as another appropriate response. There is a lot in these verses following and I will attempt to be cogent with my words following them too:::>

1Jn 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.


Act 12:7 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood next to him, and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him, saying, "Get up quickly." And the chains fell off his hands.

Act 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Act 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles.

2Co 11:12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.
2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

First to note is John's words there above at 1 Jo. 3:1 and who his mind focused on about it.

He, John, says that those of the world are such, that do not know God. They simply do not know us too, i.e. Dr. White, why? Because neither do they associate us with God or themselves. Why? It really is quite simple and the debate on the Elect and the reprobate underscores it well here with this man's attempt to rationalize the realities. He is attempting to do the Word and Work of God, however, he is a reprobate and quite convincing with his highly developed intellect.

John says this about that and again this passage is long, several verses, and I encourge thoughtful redress of this man's views from it, this for contextual purpose:

Joh 12:20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
Joh 12:21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
Joh 12:22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus.
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Joh 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
Joh 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

As the world turns, here, it began to turn on the interests of some Greeks desire to worship God. It seems, by Jesus' response to this, a "signal" might have been given to Christ at that time to unfold more of the unfolding mysteries of Christ and His Work through the called out ones among the world's populace. What is obvious to me is this went way over their heads too!

I hasten to say, even still, today, in light of this subtlety, the video presentation and challenge by this well dressed Muslim, God has a well laid out plan to deal with our most pressing need and the comtemporary future we find ourselves coming into too and facing in these days.

Finally, we need to let this sink deeply into our spirit. God reveals Christ. Christ reveals God, Our Heavenly Father, for which He died and the Holy Ghost sanctifies their choice without reservation or end, carrying us along to our ultimate end, Heavenly Glory just the moment we pass. We do not die alone in this life. We are the Elect!!! Only the Elect knows this. The devils certainly believe this. The reprobate simply are unbelievers. How ironic in this divisive attack against us, however subtle it comes across in the video, that we are the unbelievers and not them!

Well, yes, I whole heartedly agree, I simply do not believe their doctrines found in the Koran. I am an unbeliever! The difference that separates us unbelievers from those unbelievers is this, Christ died for His Elect and loves His enemies. They don't teach that! We do!!

Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.


Now, secondly, above with the text from Acts 12. God, knowing His own, simply sends Elect Angels when necessary to establish His Glory in the world. Keep in mind that this movement has a similar focus. However, the difference is well in hand, don't you think? We live by another's Faith, Christ, as His Body in the world, and our connection to Our Head, Our Heavenly Father becomes evident and is based on His ability to respond to anything the devils do. With God, all things are possible. With Allah, that simply is not the case. Of course, when you are ruthless and evil at the core, it might seem like people are whole heartedly coming under your will, joyously, when it just might be a shrewd thing to do to get them off your back? I would say that the Elect have been taught to agree with your adversary quickly while you are in the way with them.

Now to the third point, the text from Acts 14. We see clearly that as then, even so now, Jesus is actively working the world of men and their ideas by His own idea and foreknowledge through His own Apostles. Our assurance is the Word: "God is the same, yesterday, today and forever"! When necessary, Christ will shore up His own. We have that proof text, Acts 14:13.

And I hasten to say, as it was in those days of the Word of His Grace, so it will be in these days too! It will be truly divisive among the Islamic faiths too. It certainly is still among the Jews these days. There is not, nor ever will be, a common ground. God, by Christ, calls out of the world His Elect and when necessary, Christ will come to our defense and aid us in anyway He wills! :) I guess we should say: we should be looking forward to that!

And now finally, a warning. It is more appropriate for us to be concerned about the "false apostles" working under disguise with the backing of Satan and his powers than it is these folks. They simply boldly, at best, are deceived and coming on strong, to rule the world again.

My guest is, God, by His Own Virtue, has Our Brethern, the Elect, even lying in wait within the ranks of Islam. They will respond to the proclamation of the Gospel too, just as we have as well, responded to the "Calling" about us when we heard the Word and His Faith came alive within us. They too, when they Hear, will turn and will, as we, have to make their Calling and Election sure. Christ and His ministers will spring into action when that happens just as it is and was for us.

My guess is, these "brethren", some of them at least, will, when called out from among them, bring some of us shame in that they already are well prepared to die for Christ's Faith now actively working in them now activated by the preaching of the Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by Word of God. And who will tell them? Those sent for that purpose I believe.

We will rise up and overcome everything going on against us too, in Christ. This is the hallmark of the Elect in every generation:::>

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

Saint and Sinner said...

Answering Islam has a response to the use of the Ibn Abbas hadith:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Bible/ibnabbas_bukhari.htm

The general webpage for the Qur'an's view of the Bible is found here:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Bible/index.html