There is an asterisk by two items in the Arminian chart. The first asterisk is because many Arminians claim to hold to Total Depravity.What they mean by that is not what Calvinists mean by it, though,hence the asterisk. The second asterisk is because some Arminians reject, some affirm, and some leave open the question of whether true believers persevere. The "ES" stands for "eternal security." Oddly,some Pelagians hold to eternal security.-TurretinFan
Friday, December 05, 2008
Five Points Compared to a Few Soteriologies
For those interested, I thought it would fun to provide a tableshowing acceptance of TULIP's various petals (T = Total Depravity, U =Unconditional Election, L = Limited Atonement, I = Irresistible Grace,P = Perseverance of the Saints).
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7 comments:
Dear TF,
Why does the Arminian ES have a no under total depraviy?
God be with you,
Dan
Dear Dan,
The Arminian ES has a "no" under total depravity, because it's been my experience that the "once saved, always saved" crowd tends to reject total depravity.
-TurretinFan
Granted, when I read comments and articles herein and remember verses such as these:::>
Exo 24:9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up,
Exo 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exo 24:11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.
and
2Sa 7:18 Then King David went in and sat before the LORD and said, "Who am I, O Lord GOD, and what is my house, that you have brought me thus far?
and
Mat 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
Mat 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
and
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
and
1Ti 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
and finally these too:::>
1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
1Ti 6:14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15 which he will display at the proper time--he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
<.....>I do "sometimes" vacilate.
TF, I hadn't thought about Arminian theology like that before. Are you saying to Dan that Arminian ES when thoroughly understood stands there, "once saved, always saved"?
I should be more careful about what I write. Sometimes I use the shorthand "once saved, always saved" to describe the views of those who live like devils, but have assurance of salvation based on something they did in the past(such as answering an altar-call, saying a "sinner's prayer," or the like).
To such people, I have to ask them - have you read James' epistle?
Although I do agree that a person cannot be saved and then lost, a person who lives a life that shows no love for God, suggests that he has not experienced the love of God for him.
-TurretinFan
Yes, I agree.
Today, when one does read something like James:
Jas 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
Or John:
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
One would be well over the bridge of no return to live with others so intimately, so that any discipline necessary for strengthening them with His Grace would be understood if "Church" discipline were necessary in extraordinary measures as we see Paul and the Corinthian Church applied to the man cast upon the devil for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved!
Sadly, in this country, the USA, the reality of the Church to this level of maturity isn't apparent, at least by any public means?
Also, sadly, some believe the USA is where the True Church is to be found in these days. I rather think not knowing what I know and experience around town!
Dear TF,
Why not catigorize them under Pelagian ES?
God be with you,
Dan
Dan asked: "Why not [categorize] them under Pelagian ES?"
Because they acknowledge the necessity of grace, although quite inconsistently.
-TurretinFan
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