Saturday, April 18, 2009

Middle Knowledge - Part 5

This is the fifth video in the series, of which (for those already weary of the series) there are six videos. This section deals with alleged proof texts of Middle Knowledge:


(1) 1 Samuel 23:11-12

This is the place where David asked God whether the men of the city would deliver David up if David stayed in the city, and God told him they would, so David left the city. Turretin notes that this was simply a question about the men's plans, not specifically about a future contingency.

(2) Matthew 11:21

This is the place where Jesus compares those who failed to believe after many miracles were done in their midst by comparing them to Tyre and Sidon and saying that the men of Tyre and Sidon would have already repented if the miracles done had been done in them. Turretin notes that this is hyperbole, much as one might say that if a person had been beating on rocks as long as he had been beating on a judge for justice the rocks would have been broken, or that if a donkey had been taught as long as a very slow pupil that the donkey would be able to understand already.

(3) 2 Samuel 12:8

This is a place where God notes additional blessings that would have come to David if David had obeyed. Turretin notes that these blessings are conditional promises, and consequently they are based on a decree of God necessarily.

Additionally, we noted that in each case the verses relate to God's knowledge after the decree, and consequently they are not really prooftexts for any kind of middle knowledge, because they do not relate to the knowledge of God before the decree of futurition.



-TurretinFan

4 comments:

tbrooksfan said...

Good morning TF,

Did Turretin hold to infralapsarianism or supralapsarianism? I know the answer, but thought it would be edifying to those who wonder about the decree of the fall. Doesn't the decree of the fall negate middle knowledge since man was not on the scene to make a decision based on his free will?

Turretinfan said...

Turretin was infralapsarian.

The decree of the fall was a decree to permit the fall within Turretin's theology (i.e. it was an exercise of the "permissive" will).

This actually ends up interacting a bit with the issues that arise under the 6th section of this series.

-TurretinFan

natamllc said...

A couple of things; first, I was surprised to learn that Turrentin was infra and not supra, seeing I gain so much from him as I read up on his published works and his writings directly or indirectly by the works of others, both orally spoken or written about him. I am clearly supra at this time; and, secondly, I again want to emphasize that "God is" and "is Eternal" and everything that happens, happens after God to bring God Glory. Then God responds by Revelation to what happens, everything that happens. He knows everything. He is Omniscient. God is Three Omniscient Ones Who are One. As One They "know" everything together.

It is this "God response" that guides me in all things, seeing "guides" is an activity. God "being Eternal and Immutable" equally is an activity, albeit Their general or specific activities or any activities that come to me come by direct revelation either as natural or free knowledge.

I am not an eternal being. I am a temporal being and was created; afterwards I will only know what I know for Eternity that God wants me to know. I will not know "everything" that I do now or what I will come to know afterwards or that happens to me after now. When I pass from this life I will know only that that God wants me to know. Everything that happens to me in this life is a part of this creation. What I know and experience in this creation pertains only to the reason I was created. I know either directly or indirectly, either good or evil, as a direct result of God's Determined Will. No creation is outside of God's Determined Will.

God is. I came into being.

I know God as He is as He reveals Himself to me directly or indirectly. I equally know the things that I know directly or indirectly.

What I know maybe "something" other than what God wants me to know. It can be good or evil, as in an angel, a demon, a created person, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

These things have been determined.

Some things that I know are a direct result of my actions, either good or evil, seeing what I sow I reap and there is no respect of persons with God. God does not show partiality. God is just and the justifier of the one who has Faith in Jesus. God gives His Faith. If you do not have His Faith, you are not justified by God, even though you can justify yourself and others equally can justify you. There is no result of Salvation when I justify myself or any other creature justifies me. God justifies alone. His judgment is Just. That is just the way it is!

Had I, unlike David, in a similar circumstance as the circumstance David faced, [1 Sam. 23:10-13], not heeded God's activity because of my willingness to seek His counsel, His activity being His counsel, the counsel David sought and received and heeded, the circumstances would have been different for me. Only the Eternal Determinate Counsel of God will last for Eternity.

Since God is My Savior, it would be foolish of me to not heed His counsel, especially if His knowledge is that the plans of others is not as the plans of God for me, my salvation; i.e., the plans of the men of that city David sought God's counsel regarding that he may act according to the plans of God to fulfill the Words of God and not his own words, "I will be like God".

Since, like David, I don't know the plans of the city, that is the "men" of the city, only that I perceive them and I am now "living" for God's Glory and not my own, I too seek God's guidance so that my activity, seeking Him, brings Him the Glory He should receive from me, His creature, created to bring Him glory in all things:

Rev 4:11 "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

The reality is such that I am of Adam even though now I am also born again of Christ. Just because I am born again according to the great Mercy of God, my Adamic nature still exists Adamically and sinfully and deadly. There will never come a time in time or eternity when I will ever be freed from the source of all Life.

I must be given Life by My Creator and not by myself.

That is what Lucifer did.

What happened next, once Lucifer set out to become like God, I suggest, is Genesis 1:1.

We are heading to a point in time when time will no longer exist as time. Time will too have passed away and what is left is the rest of Eternity.

Turretinfan said...

"I again want to emphasize that "God is" and "is Eternal" and everything that happens, happens after God to bring God Glory."

I agree.

I think that Supra is a great position, and I have no criticisms of it.