Monday, January 11, 2010

Unloading 35 Loaded Questions for "Bible Christians" 2/35

Steve Ray has a list of 35 loaded Questions for "Bible Christians" (quotation marks his)(link to the whole list). This is number 2/35. I'm trying to provide the answers in a common format, for easy reference.

2) Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

Simple Answer(s):

Nowhere that we know of.

Important Qualification(s):

1) But all of Jesus' instructions that we know of, we know of from an authoritative book.

2) And Scripture does tell us that these Scriptures are given to us by the will of God not the will of man:

2 Peter 1:19-21
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

-TurretinFan

18 comments:

Carrie said...

Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

Is Steve denying that Scripture is God's word? If not, then this is an odd question.

Turretinfan said...

Yes, it is an odd a question. Steve is trying to suggest to the reader that the decision to write the Scriptures was the decision of the church (which, of course, is false).

SP said...

And Scripture does tell us that these Scriptures are given to us by the will of God not the will of man:

Scripture also says that the Church was given to us by the will of God and not the will of man.

Turretinfan said...

Which verse did you have in mind for that?

SP said...

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church'"

natamllc said...

SP,

what an insightful understanding of just how Satan thinks and therefore acts as a thief, a murderer and destroyer!

You wrote:

".....Scripture also says that the Church was given to us by the will of God and not the will of man......".

Hmmmmmmmm?

Yes, it's true, Pilate was given authority to have Jesus destroyed!

And as it dawned on him the trap was set he did his best to get out of it:::>

Joh 19:8 When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid.
Joh 19:9 He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave him no answer.
Joh 19:10 So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?"
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."
Joh 19:12 From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar."

And so it is today as it was back then and from those days after the fall of Adam, that some come to their senses and see the Truth and receive Him gladly and are set free.

One finds it difficult to understand just why God would do that, that is, as you say, "give the Church to us".

Now, more to the point of the question number 2 in this thread, I would only add that Paul when isolated from his books and the parchments put it upon his own minister, spiritual son Timothy, to bring them to him:::>

2Ti 4:9 Do your best to come to me soon.
2Ti 4:10 For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
2Ti 4:11 Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is very useful to me for ministry.
2Ti 4:12 Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus.
2Ti 4:13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments.

This idea of books and the Bible go way back and has been a part of History to such a degree that today we are faced with such debates as this one on sola scriptura and the magisterium and who is who and why is why and what is what.

Remember, none of us are immune to such humanly pride:::>

Mar 9:33 And they came to Capernaum. And when he was in the house he asked them, "What were you discussing on the way?"
Mar 9:34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had argued with one another about who was the greatest.

What do you think?

SP said...

natamllc,

I read your comment four times and I honestly can say that I have no earthly idea what it is you are talking about.

natamllc said...

SP

at least you are being honest! :)

SP said...

What was the gist of what you were saying?

natamllc said...

SP,

would you say you are "born again" according to the definition the Apostle Peter gives at 1 Peter 1?

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

SP said...

yes

natamllc said...

SP,

you asked:::> "....What was the gist of what you were saying?....".

You made a comment earlier in the combox about this thread:::>

"....the Church was given to us....".

I jumped on that portion, "given to us" and then proceeded to underscore God's Nature and Sovereignty to do what He did. I used the dialogue between Jesus and Pilate to point to that fact that even in this day the Church has been given to the world in the same way Christ was, so that, He, through the work of the Spirit of Grace and the Bride, in these days too can receive out of the world those Whom God Our Heavenly Father has given to Him.

You can gain some understanding of these things by reading chapter 17 of the book of the Gospel of John.

Maybe you could re-explain your meaning and intent for saying "....the Church was given to us....".

Who is "us" in that sentence? Are you referring to the RCC being the "us" in that sentence?

SP said...

Thanks for explaining your comment.

My intent in saying that the Church was given to us by God was simply to remind everybody that the scriptures weren't (aren't) the only thing given to us by God.

When I say "Church" I am referring to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. When I say 'us' I am referring to all the baptized living (militant), in purgatory (suffering) and in heaven (triumphant).

natamllc said...

SP

So with that explanation you are saying that we can be given to one another, members in particular?

If we are given to one another in this way, how would you be able to justify that? By the teachings of the RCC as in the magisterium?

SP said...

What do you mean 'given to one another?'

I am saying that the Church is established by Christ (Matt 16:18) and is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:25) and is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

natamllc said...

SP

I might be making a small thing big to you?

Your wording, the construction of the sentence to TF in your first reply conveyed something to me that put a check in my spirit.

I was born into a Native American family with a decidedly RCC framework that I grew up into. I was sent to catechism.

I then got saved after a number of years and was mercifully plucked out of that system by the Spirit of Grace.

I am sensing something that is off base within your spirit.

What I am sensing by the construction of your words that I highlighted is the basis or the foundation of them is not based in the Gospel but in something and someone else.

When one is born again, an act of God not man, man ceases to exist. Of course we get off course from time to time and shall until we are relieved of these clay vessels passing from our earthly tabernacle to our Heavenly.

I am no longer my own, I have been bought with a price. The firm foundation of the Church, the ground and the pillar of the Truth is Christ. We are given to Him. God, by intent, gives us away just like a father gives his daughter away into a marriage. Now that we are conjoined to Christ and are one Being, Him being the Head of this Body of His, He then gives us to daily tasks for the Will and Eternal Purpose of God. We are given to the world, counted as sheep for the slaughter.

TF answers for himself quite well so I don't need to answer for him.

I would say I am not satisfied though with your answer after your response "....Scripture also says that the Church was given to us....".

I don't understand your answer with the verse you gave as your answer. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

In John 17, Jesus' High Priestly Prayer, one of those few prayers in the Scriptures where God, the Son of Man, on earth, is prayering to God, Who is in Heaven, we are brought into the deepest inner workings of the Triune and see just how They understand things as they are down here on earth. You can see how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together, including the devil and his effects affecting the mind of the world and the Church.

What I decipher from your words are these few things:

1, the Scriptures, which were written down by holy men of God moved upon by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....

2, the Church, that spiritual body which began as earthen vessels; first the natural, then the spiritual....

3, your phrase, "given to us", which I note refers to the world. Maybe that wasn't the intent within you but that seems to me to be what the phrase means....

4, the Will of God, which the Word of God and God make clear to those who God wants seeing and hearing and understanding it....

5, the will of man, which I conclude, in the case of the religous system of the RCC is a combination of the spirit of the world in every age and the spirit of man not sanctified and made a part of the Holy Christian Church, which has existed in every age since the fall of Adam.

It is true that "the Church" is given to ["us"/the world] and that by the Eternal Purpose of God's Will, not the will of man.

Well anyway, I hope that clears things up? :)

I have a question for you. Have you always been a part of the RCC?

Turretinfan said...

SP wrote: "Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church'"

ok

steve said...

SP said...

"Scripture also says that the Church was given to us by the will of God and not the will of man."

And I'm sure TF would be more than happy to direct you to a URCNA congregation in your area in case you're ready to return to Mother Church.