Friday, July 30, 2010

Tim Guthrie - Highly Offended at Being Wrongly Linked to Ergun Caner

According to Tim Guthrie: "never before tonight has a Christian or lost person so misrepresented and bore false witness" (source).

The charge? Dr. White allegedly inappropriately linked Guthrie and Caner.

This website (link to website) as of July 30, 2010, has the following list of board members:
Board Members

* Dr. Robert Stewart ([removed e-mail address to avoid spammers])
* James Walker
* Ergun Caner
* Tim Guthrie
* Jerry Holbrook
* Bob Anderson
* Jeff McLean
* Alice Pitchford
* Laura Arnn
* David Henke
But there is no wrath in Tim Guthrie's post against the website for placing him and Caner next to one another. All of Guthrie's fury is directed against Dr. White for jumping to the conclusion that Guthrie and Caner serve on the board together.

Guthrie, in a fit of indignation, went so far as to make the absolutely ludicrous claim: "Mr. White fabricated the whole connection thing."

Really? Did Dr. White hack the Watchmen website so that Guthrie's name spuriously appeared next to Dr. Caner's? If Guthrie is going to be upset at someone for linking him to Dr. Caner, he should be upset with the Watchman organization.

- TurretinFan

UPDATE: Dr. White's hacking skillz update:

Apparently, to create this massive fiction that Tim Guthrie was on the board of Watchman with Ergun Caner, Dr. White not only hacked the current page, but also managed to go back in time and hack the pages for the last few years:

2008 Archive page

2007 Archive page

2006 Archive page

First Archive page I could find showing Guthrie and Caner as on the board at Watchman

35 comments:

BruinEric said...

I have no idea why Mr. Guthrie would accuse Mr. White of bearing false witness. From these past few months, he has made clear that in his view of the world, these should be considered misstatements and mistakes at worst.

--

I haven't listened to that episode of the DL, so given that... If he hasn't done so already, on the next show, Mr. White should make clear that Mr. Guthrie claims to have not spoken or communicated with Mr. Caner in any way regarding their overlapping tenures on this board.

Victoria Lynch said...

So Tim Guthrie really has such a grandiose sense of his own importance that he actually believes this line;"never before tonight has a Christian or lost person so misrepresented and bore false witness"?

To bear false witness against the sinless Son of God is the only instance where that statement would hold true.
Not only is his statement ludicrous it is also false on very many counts, including being false about Dr White.

Not only that but the whole of his post on this is the most hypocritical thing I have EVER read--I think.

Everything he accuses Dr. White of doing he has done repeatedly with Ergun Caner--he has done no research at all-so it seems- to find out if the allegations of repeatedly and knowingly lying by Ergun Caner are true.

I very rarely comment on the Caner stuff--but this is just beyond belief.
Is this just stupidity and pride at work?

Victoria Lynch said...

Oh and the comments at the Guthrie post--that he is sharing Christ's suffering--that is as mendacious a statement as I have ever heard. No one involved on that end including Caner are suffering for Christ's sake. It is sick to say that.

natamllc said...

Classic, again.

What did Jesus teach?

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Joh 15:18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Joh 15:21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
Joh 15:23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'


Well, what then, is it only good for Our Master? Or, rather, "They hated me without a cause"?

Yes, if they hated Him without a cause, why are we looking for some cause to hate us as well, not that that is what you are doing TF!

Debbie Kaufman said...

Tim Guthrie has one to one access to Ergun by phone at least. It was Tim Guthrie who called Wade and Paul attempting to get me to take my post down in February, then it was Ergun who at the request of Wade's dad called to get me to take the post down in February, citing death threats by Muslims to himself and his family. I did not take the post down.

TM said...

Point of interest. Guthrie says, "More, during my and Dr. Caners tenure on the board, I never had any contact with Dr. Caner relating to the ministry of Watchman Fellowship or anything else; I never spoke with or emailed Dr. Caner at all regarding anything. There was no contact. None!"

Then he says later in the same post, "My conversations with Dr. Ergun Caner have been minimal at best until this year."

I don't know, maybe Dr. White assumed a little too much based on the website's board listing. But then again, Guthrie can't seem to decide if he's had contact with Caner or not.

Tom

Tim G said...

TM,
You are correct. White assumed our relationship. Debbie above points out that in February I did have contact one on one. Mr. White did NOT say this. He said my "emotional" defense was due to long term connection.

He assumed - lied - made up the whole deal.

Pretty simple.

Turretinfan said...

You're seriously going to come here and tell us: "He assumed - lied - made up the whole deal" when we can see with our own eyes that the link between you two both being on the board of Watchman is something that Watchman themselves say, and have been saying for years?

Seriously? This is a lie from Dr. White, not a misplaced overreaction from you?

- TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

Look - let me put this differently: if you said, "Dr. White is reading too much into the fact that Dr. Caner and I are/were on the board of Watchman," then I don't see why anyone would complain.

But then your post wouldn't be about Dr. White lying and bearing false witness, it would be about Dr. White making a mistake, or coming to the wrong conclusion, or something like that. It would be a far less passionate post, and it would probably elicit no response (unlike what you actually posted).

-TurretinFan

Tom said...

I think the following two comments from Guthrie's blog spell out his true agenda:

================

mikeb said...
Tim, do you fault watchmen.org for still having you listed as a board member, along with Dr. Caner?

July 30, 2010


Tim G said...
mikeb,
I do not fault Watchman and Dr. Caner is still on the board of directors.

July 30, 2010

===================

So Guthrie does NOT in the least fault Watchmen for publicly maintaining the lie which he claims so impugns his personal integrity, yet he goes into his wounded martyr whinefast against Big Bad James White for reporting what is available on Watchmen's public website!!

Only a Canerite who is devoid of personal integrity, repeatedly terms who stand for the truth as "haters", and who view chronic lying as a Christian virtue would take such an idiotic position.

So, Tim, are going to share with us the e-mail you've sent to Watchmen demanding the immediate removal of your name from their board?

TM said...

Yes, I'm unclear about what Mr. Guthrie is alleging that Dr. White "lied" about and "made up." Did he lie about the connection itself, or did he lie (or assume too much) about the significance of the connection?

Tom

Tom said...

To the "other" Tom :)

At this point, I think that Guthrie and the rest of the Canerites are desperately searching for ANYTHING that they can use against Big Bad James White, regardless of how baseless the accusation, or disconnected from reality, their statements may be.

Tom Parker said...

The more that TG stirs the pot the worse he makes himself look. There is just something about his "reality" that is not reality at all.

Tom said...

Yep, according to Canerite principles, Watchmen Fellowship is not to be faulted in the least for allowing false information about Tim Guthrie to be on their public website, while Big Bad James White is to be uterly condemned for reading it and commenting on it.

Anonymous said...

You guys are getting a bit of the bizarre world of SBC tactics. This is not new...been going on for years.

It is called 'confusing the issue with ad homenim' so no one really knows what the issue is after a while.

Please do not fall for it. You effectively cannot interact with people who are not forthcoming and trustworthy.

What is even stranger about this is that it seems TimG, in a convuluted way, is trying to now distance himself from Caner claiming there is not that much personal contact.

Anonymous said...

The 'bearing false witness' theme is getting old.

They have been accusing folks of this since day one of the Caner scandal. Tim G and others were saying this over at Kaufman's blog.

It is much like the boy who cried wolf. Basically, it boils down to the fact that any information they consider negative is 'bearing false witness'.

natamllc said...

Anon,

you wrote: "It is called 'confusing the issue with ad homenim' so no one really knows what the issue is after a while."

why should we be confused?

Our God, and presumably those posting hereon are serving Him, is not the author of confusion.

There is the Holy Spirit who wrote through the Psalmist this:

Psa 139:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
Psa 139:3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
Psa 139:5 You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.


These things are not issues True Believers take with a grain of salt. We, if we are listening to Him, the Holy Spirit, will be alerted when something confusing is coming at us and will lead and guide us to respond appropriately.

Our battle is not with flesh and blood, even when the Lord retains and indwells them.

I would point you to these words of battle and encourage, not only yourself, but anyone who would be distracted from the war we face daily, so as to focus on the lessor of two evils:

Eph 3:8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph 3:11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.


and these:

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


I hope it does not come as a shock to you, but let me tell you, "Christians" are sinners too and sometimes get off tract and focused on earthly things all the while the war rages on, still!

Bennett Willis said...

Well, are they on the board together or are they not? Is the web site accurate or is it not? It seems that I should know that by now, but I do not. Apparently, there is some false information regarding the membership of the board of the ministry on the Watchman Fellowship board. Or maybe this is a board that serves by allowing their names to be used and has no real activity.

I made my comments because their names were side by side on the web site--and did not know that Dr. White has said anything on the subject. Some connection between TG and EC seemed to make a lot more sense than no connection.

I regret that I contributed to TG's possibly being connected in a professional way with EC. It was done with no ill intent but simply as an observation that there might be a personal relationship between the two based on their apparent service together on a ministry board.

natamllc said...

I would only note the "intensity" that comes out of Tim G. on this issue when he comments in here.

Recall the July 13th thread:


"Norman Geisler on Lying as a Moral/Ethical Issue"?

A new comer not familiar with the facts and who comes into this matter on that day in here, would conclude, I might imagine, after reading the posts that he posted in defense of Dr. Caner in that thread's combox, Tim G. has something more going on between himself and Dr. Caner beyond a normal and casual relationship, friendship, mutually in common interest in seeing the Gospel of the Kingdom going forth?

And now to see how many years they served together on the same board of the Watchman organization, there is now something fishy smelling in Denmark!

Anonymous said...

What college or seminary did Tim Guthrie graduate?

Fredericka said...

Tim, on your blog article you say, "His intent was to simply malign me." This comment suggests you have discerned somebody's "intent." But only God knows the heart: "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:23). Since you will not display my comment on your blog, and since you are following this thread, would you please explain how you came to know that "His intent was to simply malign me."

Strong Tower said...

It's wrong to judge intent unless you're God, Tim said so: For one to say they know the intent of the heart of another person is to violate scripture. Only God knows that. For one to so do is to bear false witness. So you must just be a HATER bearing false witness, Fredricka. Is that your intent? You had better repent or Tim will wipe you off his feet like so much dust... kind man that he is while using Scripture out of context to justify his sin. What is curious is how Tim is going to wipe himself off his own feet if he doesn't repent of the myriad of sins he has committed defending the indefensible.

Anonymous said...

"These things are not issues True Believers take with a grain of salt. We, if we are listening to Him, the Holy Spirit, will be alerted when something confusing is coming at us and will lead and guide us to respond appropriately."

You are saying true believers are never conned? Or taken advantage of? or never believe lies from those who call themselves pastors?

Sometimes the Holy Spirit allows it to teach us a deeper truth.

Anonymous said...

What college or seminary did Tim Guthrie graduate?

Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:18:00 AM


The connections with Caner actually go back to Paige Patterson. Patterson is their big guru. If Patterson mentored Caner then Caner cannot be wrong.

natamllc said...

Ha!

And I thought I was the only one Tim was discriminating against!

I just about fell over Fredericka!

You just about verbatim quoted what I posted over at his blog combox.

If he would, just to establish that we were just about thinking alike in pointing to the same errors, post both comments now, yours and mine, we too could have as good a laugh as Strong Tower, except for the fact there really isn't much to laugh at. It is sad really.

It really is time to buck up and if you haven't as yet, begin the long haul hike to Glory as we to see approaching that Glorious day:::>

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


and

Rom 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Rom 15:2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.
Rom 15:3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me."
Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Rom 15:5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.

natamllc said...

Anon,

you wrote:

You are saying true believers are never conned? Or taken advantage of? or never believe lies from those who call themselves pastors?

Sometimes the Holy Spirit allows it to teach us a deeper truth.


Well, you came full circle and just about answered the questions for me!

Thanks for noticing and including the Work of the Holy Spirit!

Yes, we are conned all day long. Haven't you gotten the memo that the god of the World, is a thief, a murderer, coming only to kill, steal and destroy and how does he do that? By the lies he tells that sound like the "Truth" he does not tell! Ha! He's the father of lies!!

If it would do me some good, I would repent in sackcloth and ashes!

Here's some food for thought, though:

Ecc 7:16 Be not overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecc 7:17 Be not overly wicked, neither be a fool. Why should you die before your time?
Ecc 7:18 It is good that you should take hold of this, and from that withhold not your hand, for the one who fears God shall come out from both of them.
Ecc 7:19 Wisdom gives strength to the wise man more than ten rulers who are in a city.
Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Strong Tower said...

"The connections with Caner actually go back to Paige Patterson. Patterson is their big guru. If Patterson mentored Caner then Caner cannot be wrong."

You actually make an insightful point, Anon. Touching Caner is not what gets under the skins of these cabalists. It is touching anyone of them. Theirs is a movement.

Openly racists liberals are characterize themselves as victims of hateful conservatives. What they do and say is not the issue, the issue is criticizing their speech and actions. The parallel is set in stone. The Pattersons, Allens, the Keathleys, The SBCToday staff, Baptist Identity Guys, whoever they are, they have one thing in common: Touch not the Lord's anointed. As Tim did here, no one can critize them, but they are free from any of their own condemnatory rhetoric when they do.

No, natamllc, I don't think it is funny in the least. I have to laugh though, what else is left? The calls for repentance express grief over sin. As has always been the case, the desire for reconcilliation is the heart of any criticism coming from this side. This is not a new thing, however, as Anon points out. The history of these backslapping good old boys goes way back. I began blogging on their duplicity a few years ago and reading archives of various interactions convinced me of a long, concerted effort. There modus operandi has not changed for decades. They feel free to falsify, misuse Scripture and to caricature and call names and feel they can do so with impugnity.

Do what they do and you're called a hater, be nice, like TF here, and you're called a hater. There is no winning, so you might as well laugh.

I took on the role of rogue rabid dog in my approach to them, because I, like many others, when offering documented critique, was banned from their sites. They love to be free from any accountability, while all along claiming sole Magisterial Authority to dictate to everyone else what is means.

BibleWheel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BibleWheel said...

Hummm .... did Tim Guthrie get kicked off the board of Watchmen Fellowship? His name is not listed there any more.

I found a video of a speech Ergun gave at their 2007 Banquet (still available for $2.99 on their site). A couple points of interest:

Ergun claims he earned a PhD.
@8:51 [It] was in Aurora Colorado where I was pastoring my last church while finishing my PhD.

Ergun claims his father was a polygamist:
@22:42 Now you see, I was raised with boys. My father had many wives. But among my mother there was three boys.

natamllc said...

ST,

I hope you will forgive me of any mis-characterizations of you that may have been conveyed in any of my responses in here that demean your integrity and the Christlike character within? I don't think you to be that shallow. I apologize if my words reflected you to be juvenile in anyway? One only has to read your posts to know that is far from the Truth, unless, of course, you are a juvenile when reading your posts? :)

Fredericka said...

natamllc wrote: "And I thought I was the only one Tim was discriminating against!"

I guess Tim wants his blog to be a place where seldom is heard a discouraging word.

Strong Tower said...

No offense taken. I always enjoy your comments. Your committment to letting the Scripture speak is a joy.

My wife is the only one who can call me a juvenile. She alone truly truly knows the rest of the story.

Turretinfan said...

Fredericka,

The I excuse I hear from them is that my comments should not be posted because I don't use my real name. I don't seriously think anything would be different if I used my real name.

I think your analysis is pretty much right. Seldom - not never - but seldom.

-TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

Thanks for the tip, BibleWheel!

Turretinfan said...

Paige Patterson is someone with whom Dr. Caner has very long term ties.